Which warship did Skuas sink on 9 May 1940 Norway?
 

Hi guys

806 Squadron Skuas attacked shipping including German warships in Bergen harbour on 9 May 1940; the crews were led to believe that they sank the German gunnery training/minelayer BREMSE but author Peter C. Smith implies they sank the similar vessel BRUMMER, even though it was recorded as having fallen foul of a RN submarine a few weeks earlier.

Does anyone have the facts?

Cheers
Brian

Re: Which warship did Skuas sink on 9 May 1940 Norway?
 

Hello Brian
it surely wasn't Bremse or Brummer but if You look Shores' et al. Fledgling Eagles on p. 313, You will find the answer. To more exact info on the victim, Rohwer and Hummelchen in their Chronology of the War at Sea 1939 - 1945 (1992 edition) on p. 19 "No 254 Sqn RAF sinks the German minesweeper M134 in Bergen Roads. The vessel is later salvaged and repaired as M534/Jungingen." Now as you well know 254 was CC Fighter Sqn (Blenheim IVfs), so I believe it was the Skuas and not the Blenheims with 20lb bombs which sunk the minesweeper.

HTH
Juha

Re: Which warship did Skuas sink on 9 May 1940 Norway?
 

According to the online version of Rohwer & Hummelchen's Chronicle of the War at Sea:

9.5.1940
Norwegen
Angriff von 6 Blenheim IVF der 254 Sq. RAF (1 Flugzeug geht durch Flakfeuer verloren) und 8 Skuas der 806 Sq. FAA (1 Skua geht bei der Landung verloren) gegen Schiffsziele vor Bergen. Ein Flugzeug der 254. Sqn. RAF versenkt den dt. Minensucher M 134, das Schiff wird später geborgen und als Räumboots- Mutterschiff M 534 / Jungingen wieder in Dienst gestellt.

Attack by 6 Blenheim IVF of 254 Sqn. RAF (1 aircraft lost to Flak) and 8 Skuas of 806 Sqn. FAA (1 Skua lost during landing) against shipping targets off Bergen. An aircraft of 254 Sqn. sinks the German minehunter M 134, the ship will later be recovered and recommissioned as the minesweeper tender M 534/Jungingen.

Re: Which warship did Skuas sink on 9 May 1940 Norway?
 

Thanks Juha and Nick

I had seen the entry in Fledgling Eagles but was bewildered by Peter C Smith's note in his latest book Skua.

Cheers
Brian

Re: Which warship did Skuas sink on 9 May 1940 Norway?
 

PS

PO(A) Arthur Jopling annotated his logbook: “Direct hit on German light cruiser ‘Bremse’ (believed sunk). Attacked and machine-gunned destroyer and six MTBs (damage unknown). Received shrapnel in undercarriage. Night landing.”

Brian

Re: Which warship did Skuas sink on 9 May 1940 Norway?
 

Karl-Fritz Schlossstein, Staffelkapitän 13.(Z)JG 5 reports in his logbook, that after he shot down a Fairy Albacore was shot down himself: He and his crew were saved by Artillerieflakschiff "Bremse" on 30th of July 1941 after emergency landing on the sea near Kirkenes.

Re: Which warship did Skuas sink on 9 May 1940 Norway?
 

Many thanks Horst

That's fairly conclusive!

Cheers
Brian

Re: Which warship did Skuas sink on 9 May 1940 Norway?
 

Hello Brian
Bremse was used as escort along Northern Norway coast in 1941 and was sunk while escorting a small convoy transporting troops of 6th Mountain Division from Hammerfest to Kirkenes by RN light cruisers Nigeria and Aurora during a night engagement between 0130 and 0145 on Sept 7th 1941.

HTH
Juha

Re: Which warship did Skuas sink on 9 May 1940 Norway?
 

Thanks Juha - its clear now that it was a case of mistaken identity and that the vessel sunk was the 500-ton M.134 and not a 2,000-ton warship!

Horst - you state that Schlossstein of 13(Z)/JG5 was shot down and ditched - do we know who accounted for his misfortune? I thought only two Bf109s were claimed in the combat. Was his aircraft hit by Albacore return fire or possibly ships' flak?

Cheers
Brian

Re: Which warship did Skuas sink on 9 May 1940 Norway?
 

Horst - you state that Schlossstein of 13(Z)/JG5 was shot down and ditched - do we know who accounted for his misfortune? I thought only two Bf109s were claimed in the combat. Was his aircraft hit by Albacore return fire or possibly ships' flak?

Cheers
Brian[/quote]

Schlossstein's misfortune on 30th of July 1941: After he had shot down one Albacore, he attacked a second and damaged her severe. The gunner of the 2nd Albacore returned the fire and forced Schlossstein to make an emegency landing on the water, approx. 14 miles north of Kirkenes habour exit. He and his crew was "fished out" from Artillerieschulschiff "Bremse", see also attached file. Best, Horst

Re: Which warship did Skuas sink on 9 May 1940 Norway?
 

Many thanks for the details, Horst, much appreciated.

Cheers
Brian

Re: Which warship did Skuas sink on 9 May 1940 Norway?
 

Hi Horst

Sorry for being a oain (!), but do you have the identity of Schlossstein's gunner on this sortie, any details of his aircraft markings, and possibly a photo of Schlossstein? Also, any details on his flying career?

Cheers
Brian

Re: Which warship did Skuas sink on 9 May 1940 Norway?
 

PS:

Horst - I have just spotted Mark's request!!! How amazing!

Was his gunner Uffz Gutski?

Cheers
Brian

Re: Which warship did Skuas sink on 9 May 1940 Norway?
 

Hi Brian, the name of his gunner was GUTSCHE, who had a rank of a Gefreiter at this time. I think KFS flew the Bf 110 F-2, LN + TR and I have some photos from him, but must check, if they are already in Eric Mombeeks great JG 5 documentation, part I. Also have the military vita of KFS, it's written in German, so I don't know, if this helps?

All the best, Horst

Re: Which warship did Skuas sink on 9 May 1940 Norway?
 

Thanks Horst, you've been so helpful.

I won't bother you further re his service.

Best wishes
Brian

Re: Which warship did Skuas sink on 9 May 1940 Norway?
 

Brian:

According to both Mombeek & Prien, Schloßstein was flying Bf 110E-2 (W.Nr. 4394) coded LN + DR on 30.07.41.

Tom

Re: Which warship did Skuas sink on 9 May 1940 Norway?
 

Many thanks, Tom - answers to my enquiries are progressing raipdly!

Whilst on the subject of the Kirkenes/Petsamo raids - what were the German claims for FAA aircraft? Who made claims? I can't seem to find anything on the 'net. Once again, any help will be appreciated.

Thanks
Brian

PS: Do we know the identities and fates of the crews of the Ju87 and Do18 lost during this operation?

Re: Which warship did Skuas sink on 9 May 1940 Norway?
 

Hello again Brian
the Finnish liaison officer in LFl 5 reported on Aug 5th to the FAF HQ that Germans shot down 28 a/c, of which ships and Flak downed 5. According to that report Germans got 21 PoWs of which 18 were officers.

HTH
Juha

Re: Which warship did Skuas sink on 9 May 1940 Norway?
 

Hello all,
I devoted 3 pages to this date in my book "Die Jäger der Graf Zeppelin".
The I./JG 77 claimed 3 Hurricanes, 13 Albacores, 2 Skuas and a Russian aircraft. The IV./LG 1 claimed 5 Swordfish. Bf 110's claimed another 5.
Lokal flak units claimed 7.
I found details of 12 Albacores and 4 Fulmars lost.

Francis

Re: Which warship did Skuas sink on 9 May 1940 Norway?
 

And Kriegsmarine seems to have thought that fighters got 25, Flak 2 and shipborne Flak 4.

Juha

Re: Which warship did Skuas sink on 9 May 1940 Norway?
 

Thanks guys for the continuing information.

Francis - is there any chance of you scanning the three pages from you book for me? If so, my e-mail address is briancullauthor@fsmail.net

Many thanks in advance.

I would like to learn the names of all the Luftwaffe claimants, together with the indentities of the lost Ju87 and Do18. Were any Bf109s or Bf110s damaged in addition to the one lost?

Can't seem to find these claims in Tony Woods' lists.

Cheers
Brian

Re: Which warship did Skuas sink on 9 May 1940 Norway?
 

Hello Brian
according to Hannu Valtonen’s Luftwaffen Pohjoinen Sivusta Ju 87 B-1 WNr 5310, L1+EW 12.(St.)/LG 1, FF Lt. Karl Rommel and BF Ogfr. Erich Czopik KIA.

31.7.41 Do 18, W.Nr. 0870, 8L+BL, 3./Kü.Fl.Gr. 906; went missing with crew Barents Sea c. 600 km N of Murmansk, FF Ofw. Alfred Thone.

And You didn’t ask this info, but the Naval Flak got following credits:
the ship M.R.S. Bali two, M.A.A. 513 one and the motor minesweeper R-152 one.

HTH
Juha

Re: Which warship did Skuas sink on 9 May 1940 Norway?
 

The JU87 was shot down by an Albacore possibly the only air victory of the type and the Do18 was shot down by 2 Sea Hurricanes the first victory of that type. The book "Send Her Victorious" covers this op.

Re: Which warship did Skuas sink on 9 May 1940 Norway?
 

The Do 18 crew was:

Ofw Alfred Thone (F)
Lt. z.S. Eberhard Mainhold (B),
Fw. Albert Ihns (Bm),
Uffz. Kurt Wolter (Bf)


The aircraft was shot down in Pos. 74N, 35E by two sea Hurricanes of 880Sqdn FFA flown off HMS Furious

rgds

Adam