Re: Saburo Sakai
 

Thanks Focusfocus,

The story was very "controversial" during my time in the RAAF so it is interesting to be able to ask about it here on the forum

Nick

Re: Saburo Sakai
 

Hello Flavio,

I counted the claims on the list with the ideogram knowledge:
- 4 Destroyed in the China War
- 54+19 shared Destroyed in WW2
- 1 Probable in WW2
- 1 Damaged in WW2
- 7+1 shared On the ground in WW2

I suppose, the 17Aug1945 claim is a shared ground kill, isn't it ?
Do the ideograms tell us how many pilots took part in the shared kills ?

Cheers,

Michael

Re: Saburo Sakai
 

Hello Michael
IIRC In Samurai! the 17 Aug 45 case is described as an unofficial aerial kill. Also IIRC in an article on B-32s the aerial combat is describded. IMHO at that stage a ground kill isn't very probable.

Juha

Re: Saburo Sakai
 

Dear Michael,

the victory of 17th May 1945, according to the kanji, was "Shared" + "damaged".

The kanji for "on the ground" are the first two ideograms on 3 March a PBY officially "on the ground" + "damaged".

Flavio

Re: Saburo Sakai
 

...alright, I understand, very intresting, thank you.
Now the only ideogram that is unclear to me is the first one of 8Feb1942:
B-17x1...?...shared.
Can you help ?

Michael

Re: Saburo Sakai
 

I am not 100% sure, I think it is a different way to say "Shared"... :-)

Flavio

Re: Saburo Sakai
 

Hello,

is there any chance to learn how many pilots took part in the shared kills ?


Have a nice weekend,

Michael

Re: Saburo Sakai
 

If it will help you:

14/5/42 = shared with six pilots

20/5/42 = shared with one pilot

11/7/42 = shared with seven pilots

26/7/42 = shared with ten pilots

2/8/42 = shared with nine pilots

8/2/42 = shared with nine pilots

Re: Saburo Sakai
 

Dear focusfocus,

this helps a lot. Thank you very much.
Only few questions remain:

1. You write about a shared kill on 11/7/42. On that day there isn't a shared kill indicated in Sakai's list. Do you mean the shared kill on 22/7/42 ?
2. How many pilots shared in the six kills on 25/5/42 ?
3. How many pilots shared in the kill on 30/7/42 ?
4. 8/12/42: I suppose the "damaged on the ground" indication is only for the 2xB-17's, whereas the P-40 is an aerial kill ?
5. There are 4 Chinese-Japanese-War kills on the list, whereas his score of that war is known to have been only two. Are two of the kills on that list unconfirmed ?

Cheers,

Michael

Re: Saburo Sakai
 

1)
11/07/42
It' a mistake on my part,it must read 22/07/42

2)
25/05/42
Shared by twelve pilots (including Sakai)

3)
30/07/42
Shared by nine pilots (including Sakai)

4)
08/12/42
Two B-17 destroyed on ground
one P-40 :aerial kill

5)
No idea

According of his log book

michel

Re: Saburo Sakai
 

Good morning Michel,

thanks so much !
I conclude the breakdown of Saburo Sakai's 87 claims:
Chinese-Japanese War: 2 confirmed+2 unconfirmed (?)
WW2:
-56,25 [54+19] destroyed
-1 probable
-2+1sh damaged
-6 damaged on the ground

Cheers,

Michael

Re: Saburo Sakai
 

Now a more mundane question: Is a copy of Sakai's logbook in existence, and has anyone in the Western world seen or obtained it? That would be significant!

Russ

Re: Saburo Sakai
 

Saburo Sakai may have used it for his memoir called SAMURAI!
Otherwise, Henry Sakaida who has written a book about Sakai called WINGED SAMURAI might be able to ask you question.

Re: Saburo Sakai
 

Great debate. Does the japanese squadron record proceed further into 1942? later than August 2, 1942?

Re: Saburo Sakai
 

Hello Felix,

I don't think so. Japanese claim records get very scarce in the latter half of the war. (The same is true for Japanese successes while they suffer more and more crippling defeats in the fights against the Americans.)

But I would be glad to be proven wrong.

Michael

Re: Saburo Sakai
 

Hi "guys"

168 claims are mentioned,often "fanciful" (to remain politically correct),in the Tainan Kokutai Kodochosho between 2/8/42 and 1/11/42 which gives another insight into the record of some "aces" (Ota,Nishizawa,Sasai,Okumura....)

michel

Re: Saburo Sakai
 

Hello Michel,

this website indicates that Nishizawa scored 34+158 shared kills:
http://www.aces.safarikovi.org/victories/japan-ww2.html
Will it ever be possible to find out the decimals od the shared kills ?

Michael

Re: Saburo Sakai
 

Nishizawa Hiroyoshi

4° Kokutai

14/3/42=6 P-40 collective (by four pilots)
14/3/42=2 P-40 prob.collective(by four pilots)
28/3/42=3 spits collective(by five pilots)

Extracts from Tainan Kokutai Kodochosho

12/5/42=2 P-39 collective(by five pilots)
12/5/42=1 P-39 prob.collective(by five pilots)
13/5/42=2 P-39 collective(by five pilots)
13/5/42=1 B-26 prob.collective(by six pilots)
17/5/42=5 P-39 collective(by six pilots)
17/5/42=1 P-39 prob.collective(by six pilots)
09/6/42=4 B-26 collective(by 23 pilots)
25/6/42=1 P-39 collective(by three pilots)
25/7/42=1 B-17 collective(by nine pilots)
5/10/42=1 B-25 collective(by seven pilots)
8/10/42=2 dauntless collective(by 8 pilots)
13/10/42=1 wildcat collective(by two pilots)
13/10/42=1 wildcat prob.collective(by two pilots)
17/10/42=1 dauntless collective(by two pilots)

michel

Re: Saburo Sakai
 

Good evening,

cool.
Is it possible to find a Nishizawa victory list that is more complete than these ?
https://www.lesasdelaluftwaffe.fr/au...shi-nishizawa/
http://www.cieldegloire.com/010_nishizawa_h.php

Michael

Re: Saburo Sakai
 

Hi Michael

Attached list of "victories" of Nishizawa

4° KOKUTAI
14/3/42=6 P-40 coll.
24.3/42=1 Spit
28/3/42=3 Spit coll.

TAINAN KOKUTAI
1/5/42=1 P-39
2/5/42=2 P-40
3/5/42=1 P-40
7/5/42=1 P-39+1 P-40
12/5/42=2 P-39 coll.
13/5/42=2 P-39 coll.
17/5/42=5 P-39 coll.
20/5/42=1 P-39
27/5/42=1 P-39
1/6/42=1 P-39
9/6/42=4 B-26 coll.
16/6/42=2 P-39
25/6/42=1 P-39
4/7/42= 1 P-39
11/7/42=1 P-39
25/7/42=1 P-39
25/7/42=1 B-17 coll.
7/8/42=6 F4F
5/10/42=1 B-25 coll.
8/10/42=1 SBD coll.
11/10/42=1 F4F
13/10/42=1 F4F coll.
17/10/42=1 F4F
17/10/42=1 SBD coll.
20/10/42=1 F4F

KOKUTAI 251:in brackets,collectively assigned to the group(including Nishizawa)
14/5/43=1 P-38+1 P-40
7/6/43=1 P-39+1 F4U
12/6/43=1 F4U+1 F4F
16/6/43=1 P-39
7/7/43=(1 P-39+2 P-40+3 F4U)
9/7/43=2 P-39
11/7/73=(1 F4U+1 F4F+1 P-38+2 P-39)
13/7/43=(1 F4U+5 F4F)
15/7/43=(8 F4U+4 F4F+2 P-39+1 P-40)
16/7/43=4 F4U
25/7/43=(2 F4U+6F4F+5 P-39)
31/7/43=1 P-39+2 P-40
1/8/43=(3 F4F+5 P-40)
4/8/43=(8 F4U+7 F4F)
7/8/43=1 F4F+1 P-39
15/8/43=2 F4U
18/8/43=2 F4U
21/8/43=(7 F4U)

KOKUTAI 253
24/9/43=(11 P-38)
1/10/43=(4F4U+2 P-39+3 P-40)
12/10/43=(1 P-38+1 B-24+3 B-25)
15/10/43=(3 P-38)
17/10/43=(4 P-38)
18/10/43=2 B-26
24/10/43=(12 P-38+3 B-25)

KOKUTAI 201
25/10/44=2 F6F coll.


After octob.42,the majority of his claims are "fanciful" and unverified on the US side

Michel

Re: Saburo Sakai
 

Marvellous ! Thanks for posting.
Are the decimals of the 1943/44 shared kills known ?

Michael

Re: Saburo Sakai
 

Long after Saburo Sakai passed away, and also his widow, I made inquiries with the a relative...he doesn't know where his logbook is. In the 1970s, I knew a gentleman who knew Sakai well, an American, and he told me that he saw Sakai's logbook. It did exist. No, the whereabouts is unknown. I visited Sakai twice at his home and he never offered to show me.

Sakai is attributed with 64 victories, but this was a marketing gimmick tied to the advertisements for his book in Japan. In his ads, it stated that he was the "Miyamoto Musashi of Aerial Combat, with 64 kills." In Japanese folklore, Miyamoto Musashi was a Medieval Samurai who slew 64 opponents with his sword. Now do you get the idea?

Sakai probably amassed around 10 victories total, a tremendous figure for any Zero pilot. Those ten would have made him a super ace!

Re: Saburo Sakai
 

You think 10 is tremendous ?
Is that the total that's verified by Allied losses ?

Michael

Re: Saburo Sakai
 

OR .....

you could say he had 64 victories and therefore the association with Miyamoto Musashi.

Baseless assumptions, wild guesses ........

Cheers

Re: Saburo Sakai
 

Regarding the issue of the logbook, on page 141 of Henry Sakaida's Winged Samurai a picture is included that is captioned as follows:

Re: Saburo Sakai
 

Have you already heard that a new OSPREY volume about the Zero aces will be published next year.
I anticipate it'll include statements about the scores of Sakai, Nishizawa & Co.

Michael

Re: Saburo Sakai
 

Where did you get that info from Michael? I keep an eye on Osprey 's pre-order list which goes 3 months in advance, and it doesn't show up there.
Cheers
Peter

Re: Saburo Sakai
 

It is on the Osprey "Big Reveal" blog page for the "Aircraft of the Aces" series. https://ospreypublishing.com/blog/Big_Reveal_2017_ACE/

Two volumes, the first at least to appear in 2018, but no month announced. To cover the period of China through the Solomons, for the A6M-2 and the Rufe float fighter.

Enjoy!

Frank.

Re: Saburo Sakai
 

According to Amazon, August 2018 is the release date. (subject to change of course)
https://www.amazon.ca/Zero-sen-Aces-...s=zero+millman

Re: Saburo Sakai
 

The last word on TAINAN KU pilots comes from the masterpiece EAGLES OF THE SOUTHERN SKY by Lucas Ruffato and Michael Claringbould.
According to their research and methodology, they give Sakai credit for 4.3 victories. This doesn't include his two victories over Tulagi (SBD and a F4F which are verified through US Navy records). Don't ask me to explain how they arrived at the score, just get the book if you really want to know. I support their work.

SAMURAI! by Martin Caidin, Fred Saito, and Saburo Sakai is horrible and I consider it almost fiction. WINGED SAMURAI by Henry Sakaida is much better, but EAGLES OF THE SOUTHERN SKY is the best! The authors compared Allied and Japanese losses, and that's how they arrived at the scores.

4.3 + 2 = 6.3 victories with the Tainan KU. Sakai's China War claims of 2 are unverified. Neither are his claims prior to Tainan KU. And neither are his claims at Iwo Jima.

A Japanese researcher told me that Sakai had around 10 victories and I believe him. I asked Sakai if he had 64 victories and he said he didn't remember how many he shot down...he made claims only but could not confirm them because there was no confirmation process like the Americans had.

Whether 6.3 or 10, such a score would be incredible for a Japanese pilot. We are too used to seeing the scores of Luftwaffe aces with their scores of 100, 200, 301, and 352 victories.

Treat Japanese aerial victory scores as a CLAIM, and not CONFIRMED. Sakai admitted that he survived because he was wounded and sent back to Japan. The truly great pilots flew from 1937 until the end of the war.

When I met the Zero pilots, they would never mention scores, but would tell me that so and so was a great pilot, "he survived Rabaul" or "he fought at Guadalcanal" or "he flew against B-29s..."

Re: Saburo Sakai
 

Good morning Luftwaffe8,

thanks for your assessment and for sharing your interview experience.
Yes, there was no confirmation process, which makes the Japanese issue rather challenging for those who fancy figures, like me.

Have a nice Tuesday,

Michael

Re: Saburo Sakai
 

Another point to remember about Japanese pilot's aerial claims:
Japan is a group oriented society and we Westerners simply are not aware of just how important this is. Ever since they were children, group orientation is pounded into them. When an individual fails, it affects the group.

An individual who fails brings dishonor to himself, his family, his clan, his school, his associates, and his friends. He is ostracized from the group. No one will associate with him. When he walks down the street, friends and acquaintances look away or go back into the house. They practice "Don't ask, don't tell." No one speaks his name.

Credit always went to the group, not the individual. There are no "Donald Trumps" in Japan, no flamboyant characters. In America and Europe, advancement in rank or social status is merit based. Not in Japan. Everyone in Japan knows their niche. They strictly adhere to the chain of command. You NEVER embarrass your superiors.

If the boss of your company takes his junior execs out to dinner, and he orders Suntory, all the execs orders the same. If you order anything else, you will be silently scorned and marked as a "maverick." Not good for your future.

If you score the winning game, you do NOT get credit. The credit goes to the team. If you claim credit, you will have committed a major social blunder. You dishonor the contributions of your team. You are history.

During WWII, it was standard practice to award credit to the unit, not the individual. Pilots did record their claims in their logbook, but it was just a personal notation. When a pilot was killed, the unit or the CO would build him up by stating that so-and-so was killed in aerial combat after shooting down an enemy plane. Maybe he never fired a shot. An accidental collision becomes an intentional ramming.

Pilots did talk amongst themselves. When asked about their credits by comrades, they will state their claims, but there was no motive to inflate totals. You were supposed to shoot down as many planes as you could.
It was like asking a lumberjack "How many trees did you cut down today?"
"I chopped down 5." The response would be something like: "Good for you! Maybe tomorrow, you can double the score!" That's about as far as it went.

When veterans talked about their pilot friends, they would freely say, "Oh, Isozaki-san shot down over a hundred planes!" So when I met Mr. Chitoshi Isozaki, I would mention that his friend said that he shot down over a hundred planes. He would laugh, wave his hand, and say "Nonsense!"
A friend of Warrant Officer Sadamu Komachi told me that he shot down over 40 planes, and I asked Komachi if this was true. He laughed and said, "Maybe half!" These pilot veterans always spoke highly of their comrades and attributed them with high scores because high scores impressed score-obsessed Westerners.

Sakai was ostracized from the Zero Fighter Pilots Association because members were critical that he made his living off the Zero fighter. Think of the Seal Team 6 members who claimed that they killed Osama Bin Laden. While the public think he was a great hero, the guys are looked down upon my their comrades who have chosen to remain silent. If you are a survivor of a unit and almost everyone else was killed, and you start making $$$$ with books, talks, interviews, movies...you will be perceived as making money off their dead comrades. Can you live with that?

When Sakai's movie OZORA NO SAMURAI came out in 1976, Zero pilot veterans shunned it. The ZFPA did not support Sakai nor his movie.

So when you look at Japanese aerial victory claims, remember all this, and you will understand my position on their claims. Japanese "aces"is a postwar Western creation. The Japanese did not have tank aces, sniper aces submarine aces, and fighter aces. They just didn't exist.

What would you think if some foreigner comes out with US ARMY INFANTRY ACES OF THE VIETNAM WAR? Anyone who claimed they killed 5 Viet Cong have their names and scores listed.

Now you know.

Re: Saburo Sakai
 

Yes, figures, lists and rankings are among the most enjoyable aspects of airwar enthusiasm.
You cannot easily express the achievements of infantry men in figures. That's why they always stood in the shade of the air aces.
The Third Reich wanted to assign a figure to successful infantry men by counting those days of action in which close combat was fought.
Those soldiers with many close combat days were rewarded the Close Combat Clasp:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Close_Combat_Clasp
Hitler once said that he considers the Close Combat Clasp (in Gold) more honorable than the Knight's Cross.

Have a nice Wednesday,

Michael

Re: Saburo Sakai
 

Luftwaffle8

No real surprises in what you say, very logical indeed.
However, how did the Japanese High Command work?

If no one 'dared' to state anything upon return, how did they determine the outcome of a battle? To me (but then again I am a Westerner...:o), hiding inside the Group has a lot of inherent drawbacks especially in wartime.

Did the High Command (Navy and Army) believe in the often very fanciful claim (group?) reports? How did they ensure relevant supplies etc were forthcoming to various battlefronts? What I mean is that if they believed the Allies had basically been destroyed at some front line, they were bound to make mistakes due to, in the end, totally faulty feed back from their own pilots.

Then again there were a few flamboyant characters both in JAAF/JNAF, but perhaps they were far too few to be really counted?

The Japanese mentality is interesting, but beyond the scope of this site/topic, but I cannot help wondering at what level individual thinking/initiative began. It had to start somewhere, since otherwise the Emperor would have been completely overwhelmed in five seconds flat if he would have had to make every decision at every point in every Japanese life.....;)

Cheers
Stig

Re: Saburo Sakai
 

And if said pilot survived all three and made it to the end of the war? I would certainly be impressed-regardless of their score;

Anyway, I remember a reviewer of The Sakai/Caidin book who mentioned The IJN pilots puzzlement & frustration at why, no matter now many allied aircraft they shot down down there were always just as many the next day. Almost certainly it's because these aircraft they're shooting at are not actually getting destroyed.

Re: Saburo Sakai
 

Is it known how many US aircraft were lost in combat in the PTO/CBI ?

Michael

Re: Saburo Sakai
 

The HQ staff made battle decisions based upon intelligence information. And of course, there was politics involved, and saving face.

You can be severely punished for showing any initiative if it violated orders. A case in point is the Nomonhan Incident, the summer border war between the Soviet Union and Mongolians vs the Japanese and the Manchurians. If the Japanese unit is being overwhelmed, it would make logical sense to fall back and regroup. Such was not permitted. If the unit commander gave orders to retreat without permission from HQ, he was branded a coward and executed. So he elected to die at his station.

Then there was this policy of protecting the unit's flag (colors). Many men died to protect it, and they even sent out teams to try and recover it.

Then there was the policy of trying to recover their dead...and once again, many men died doing this.

The Japanese military structure was extremely rigid. And soldiers were expendable in order to achieve victory. You know the old saying, "Uncommon valor was a common virtue" ??? In the Japanese unit, there was no valor. You were expected to kill and sacrifice your life for Japan.

Here is an example of cannon fodder. Zero pilot Minoru Honda didn't come back from a mission, so he was written up as KIA. Then he returned 3 days later, and the paperwork was already submitted stating that he was KIA. None of the officers wanted to take the time to correct it so when he returned, he was sent on mission after mission, against impossible odds, but he returned each time! They were hoping that he was killed so that there would be no need to correct the paperwork!!!! Boy, he was pissed!!!
Luckily he survived the war.

Conduct which awarded our guys with the Medal of Honor, was common amongst the Japanese military. They would hurl themselves with explosives against tanks, crash dive into enemy ships and positions, and charge the Americans single-handedly in the face of deadly fire. We called those Japanese "FANATICS" - but if they were Americans, we called them 'HEROES!"

Our military commanders must show initiative and be flexible and fluid.
Sometimes, orders are violated or ignored, or "not received" or "garbled in transmission." If we win the battle, the unit commander is awarded and praised...if not, he is relieved of command, but not executed. We Americans are not hung up on "saving face" as the Japanese were.

So that is why Japanese soldiers were extremely tough. But they were hampered by the chain of command, and the inability of officers to take the initiative.

Re: Saburo Sakai
 

Hmm

So what you basically are saying is that due to rigid thought the Japanese were boxed into their own system and could not get out.
Rigid thinking and non flexibility in one mind.
It works for awhile I guess.....and then you are gone....

Must say my sympathies are with Honda....:mad:

Cheers
Stig

Re: Saburo Sakai
 

The contradictory thing about the Honda story is that, when a more senior officer found out about it, he ordered them to fix the problem ............

Re: Saburo Sakai
 

...I mean the Americans scored ~14.000 kills against the Japanese.
I they lost about the same number of planes in combat, then some of the Japanese victory scores might the realistic.

Michael