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Hi all,
I´m interesting in photos of Hawker Hurricane during Phoney War and Battle of France - as is visible from my previous thread. In this moment, I have lot of question and I hope, that somebody from this super forum can help me. All, who are interesting in same thread are welcome and thanks for all response. Faenor 1st question - captured Hawker Hurricane Mk. I - I´m searching for more info about this plane: - Watts 2 blade wooden propeller and early style windscreen with external armour - camo type A - tricolore on the tail - "old version or style" - marking G - on one photo is visible hexagon mark on tail - so its 85. Sq? But then there not fit the tricolore on the tail - this type us mostly used by 1.Sq .... Photo are on this link - in this moment, I don´t know, how to post these photo from external source http://www.modelari.org/viewtopic.php?f=40&t=2144 Thanks Faenor |
Re: General theme for Hawker Hurricane during Phoney War and BoF
Hello Faenor,
Not a two-seat Hurricane. Just the canopy pulled back . Red/white/blue rudder stripes were common in that it aided identification being similar to the French rudder markings. Alex |
Re: General theme for Hawker Hurricane during Phoney War and BoF
The rudder stripes were only applied, at least initially, to 1 and 73 Squadrons of the Advanced Air Striking Force.
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Re: General theme for Hawker Hurricane during Phoney War and BoF
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If we agree with this, then there is "heretic question" - is possible, that this plane is Hawker Hurricane Mk. I L1679 from 1.SQ - pilot F/O P.H.M. Richey ? Based on information from Peter Cornwell book Battel of France Then and Now - page 231, this pilot force-landed at Tournes-Belval (probably French airfield) and this plane was destroyed in bombing May 14. If we compare this plane with know photo - see this links: http://i275.photobucket.com/albums/j...i/RicheysG.jpg https://lib.rus.ec/i/55/480355/pic_11.jpg On these imagines from internet we can compare: - Watts 2 blade wooden propeller - same - camo type A,same under surface scheme (black/white/alluminium) - same - same rudder stripes similar to French tricolore -same - plane letter G (squadron codes was deleted by both squadrons - 1.Sq and 73.Sq -same aerial mast and same type of ventral strake and tailwheel - hexagon marking of rudder (85.Sq) - negative for compare :-( My question is - do you have more info, how the plane L1679 was loss during bombing MAy 14? Is possible, that this plane was left on French airfield and this airfield was bombed during May 14 and then this plane was abandoned by French and plane was captured by German? Or is this just "another lost Hawker hurricane durig Battele of France without information..... Faenor PS - over next days, I will share with you more similar photos questions based on photo from e-bay :-) |
Re: General theme for Hawker Hurricane during Phoney War and BoF
Hello Faenor,
Your demonstration is credible. Now we would like to know if this Hurricane is abandoned in Tournes-Belval... On the link you will have an aerial view of the airfield in 1948 in and we see this one just next of some woods and not so far the river Sormonne. https://remonterletemps.ign.fr/telecharger?x=4.638196&y=49.785465&z=13&layer=GEOG RAPHICALGRIDSYSTEMS.MAPS.SCAN-EXPRESS.STANDARD&demat=DEMAT.PVA$GEOPORTAIL:DEMAT; PHOTOS&missionId=missions.3722066 If the link is inoperative I will tell you how to get there. HTH Bertrand |
Re: General theme for Hawker Hurricane during Phoney War and BoF
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thanks for reply - your link I can´t open. If there is somebody more familiar with French airfield during BoF, can please check this theme on this forum about Aufkl.Gr.(H)21 during French Campaign http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/showthread.php?t=37169 There is photo of Hs 126 from this German unit, and hangars/building in the background looks like building from imagine of this Hurricane. If there is somebody with more info about this airfield, or have some photos of German units from this place for confirmation, it will be very helpful! If you check this link, there is probably hangar from this airfield and again, build looks fine http://aeroplanedetouraine.fr/hostein/ Faenor |
Re: General theme for Hawker Hurricane during Phoney War and BoF
Hi,
Go to the web site : remonterletemps.ign.fr then TÉLÉCHARGEZ DES CLICHÉS ET DES CARTES HISTORIQUES In the blank case "Rechercher un lieu" put : Tournes Click on 1940 then click again on the orange point After you can download aerial view. HTH Bertrand |
Re: General theme for Hawker Hurricane during Phoney War and BoF
Hello,
Re the "hexagon" on the fin. Could it be just some graffiti added by someone unknown ? To me it does not have the look of the 85 Sqdn marking that is shown in many other photos available. Alex |
Re: General theme for Hawker Hurricane during Phoney War and BoF
Some notes of interest on Paul Richey's Hurricane 'G' of 1 Squadron:
(These are from memory of his partial autobiography "Fighter Pilot". Unfortunately, I don't have it to hand to check the details.) - aircraft carried only the individual aircraft letter - i.e. 'G'- the squadron codes were removed sometime after arrival in France. (Possibly when the enlarged tail tricolour stripes were applied.) - the only time Richey force landed 'G', it was after combat and his wooden propeller had disintegrated. He made a safe landing* and was congratulated in doing so by his C.O. who then also reprimanded him for taking the risk of gliding so far, instead of baling out. - Richey was subsequently shot down in combat over France twice more.** From Peter Cornwell's "Battle of France - Then and Now": * This combat occurs on 11 May. Wingtip is also damaged in avoiding bomb crater. Aircraft is repairable, but destroyed in bombing on 14 May. ** Richey is also shot down - parachuting out - later on 11 May. In the attached/linked photos, above, there is a bomb crater on the right of the aircraft but neither wingtip appears damaged. If this Hurricane is Richey's force-landed 'G', then it appears also that the propeller has been replaced, along with the wingtip being repaired. Is it practical to have had the damage repaired between 11-14 May? Is the bomb crater visible in one of the photo, the original crater which Richey had to avoid on landing; or is it possibly the bomb which eventually destroys 'G' - perhaps causing the extensive damage on the fuselage. I tend to think the former, as a bomb leaving such a crater next to the aircraft would most likely have sent it flipping over (in the least). ...geoff PS. The damage does appear to be souvenir taking of the fabric, rather than bomb damage. PSS. https://i.pinimg.com/originals/f8/28...3fe3ef953f.jpg This internet sourced photo of 1 Squadron Hurricane 'Z' has the letter code near the tail, rather than the cockpit as on the OP's attached photos. https://www.pinterest.com.au/pin/189995678009098308 This internet sourced photo shows a typical 85 Sqn Hurricane markings circa 20 May 1940. Caption records the aircraft shot down over France while strafing German troop convoy. (If this link fails, try a google search for 85 Squadron Hurricane markings 1940.) |
Re: General theme for Hawker Hurricane during Phoney War and BoF
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thanks for your point - yes, on some photo is visible soil, probably from crater. On 2 imagines is visible, that he Hurricane have fabric wing. Buildings looks like from the airfield - from my respective, this is Hawker Hurricane Mk.I L1679 of F/O P.H.M. Richey after May 14, 1940. During this weekend, I will post there more photo related to F/O P.H.M. Richey - including damaged Watts propeller of his plane from 20.4.1940. Faenor |
Re: General theme for Hawker Hurricane during Phoney War and BoF
Hi Faenor,
It wouldn't surprise me if I am mixing up details on Paul Richey. It's been at least 10 years since I read the book properly, and my copy is currently in a box while I change out a few rooms in the house. To my view, I think the individual aircraft codes might be in the wrong place for No 1 or 73 Squadrons. Two other RAF squadrons - No 85 and No 87 - were also based in France as part of the air component of the BEF. They also had the full rudder tricolour, and coincidentally neither squadron made much use of the regular RAF fin-flash (a lot of photos of the 1939-1940, pre-Battle of Britain period show the 85 Sqn hexagon or the 87 Sqn arrowhead located where the RAF type fin-flash would normally be). The full squadron codes & individual aircraft letter locations are more consistent with either of these squadrons. I think there is a good possibility that what appears as a thin hexagon in one of your linked photos may be a shadow from a cut out hexagon or part of a cut out (i.e. souvenired) arrowhead marking. What do you think? I wonder if anyone knows if 85 Sqn or 87 Sqn lost and aircraft 'G' in France in 1940? ...geoff |
Re: General theme for Hawker Hurricane during Phoney War and BoF
....answering my own question:
From Peter Cornwell's "Battle of France - Then and Now": 19-May-1940 (p.321), notes that 87 Sqn Hurricane P2819 LK-G was badly damaged in the control wires and main longerons (fuselage structure) during air combat with Bf109s. The aircraft was repairable but abandoned (I assume at 87 Sqn's base Lille-Marcq ). Cross referencing with Rawlings' "Fighter Squadrons of the R.A.F." : 87 Sqn is recorded as operating a Hurricane I - LK-G P2829. Perhaps a typo? Your thoughts? ...geoff |
Re: General theme for Hawker Hurricane during Phoney War and BoF
As the fin flash was not adopted until May 10th 1940, it's no surprise that most photos of the squadrons in France lack this feature.
Pictures I can find of 85 and 87 Sq aircraft in this period do not have the rudder stripes, but there is at least one of an 85 Sq aircraft with both narrow fin stripes and the hexagon. |
Re: General theme for Hawker Hurricane during Phoney War and BoF
Hello Graham,
I don't claim any great knowledge on the subject, and have to rely on the accuracy of caption writers. So I try and find sources which have a higher level of reliability. Have a look at the following linked photos and tell me what you think. If you can shed further light on their accuracy, that would be a good thing. These photos are from the Imperial War Museum collection/photo area. I used a search for: Hawker Hurricanes France 1940. 87 Sqn, arrowhead marking, full rudder tricolour: HU112434, " Hawker Hurricane Mk Is of No. 87 Squadron at Lille-Seclin, France 1940." http://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205259684 87 Sqn, no arrowhead, no fin-flash or rudder stripes HU112449, "Hawker Hurricane Mk I L2047 'LK-H' of No. 87 Squadron nosed over after a landing accident at Lille-Seclin, France 1940." http://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205259683 87 Sqn, arrowhead marking, no rudder stripes HU112435, "Hawker Hurricane Mk I 'LK-Q' of No. 87 Squadron after a crash-landing, France 1940." http://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205259687 73 Sqn, full rudder tricolour, single aircraft letter on tail side of roundel C1241, "Two Hawker Hurricane Mark Is of No. 73 Squadron RAF coming in to land at Rouvres. The nearest 'S', is being flown by Pilot Officer P V Ayerst." http://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205064961 I think these are the 85 Sqn photos you referred to before, with narrow (smaller fin flash) and hexagon: C1519, "Ground crew and armourers refill ammunition belts with .303 bullets by Hawker Hurricane Mark Is of No. 85 Squadron RAF at Lille-Seclin." http://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205207588 C1518 http://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205207586 1 Sqn, full rudder tricolour, single aircraft letter on tail side of roundel C1234, "Hawker Hurricane Mark I, N2358 'Z', of No. 1 Squadron RAF is refuelled while undergoing an engine check at Vassincourt." http://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205207569 That first link, is the only photo I have seen recently, of an 85 or 87 Sqn with full rudder stripes. (Mind you, I haven't also been searching recently.... but I have not seen that published elsewhere before.) Your thoughts? ...geoff Additional photo, captioned as 615 Sqn Hurricane suffering bomb blast damage at Kenley 18-August-1940. (Found during general internet search, so accuracy of caption unverified.) https://www.reddit.com/r/Warplanesnu...uadron_hawker/ |
Re: General theme for Hawker Hurricane during Phoney War and BoF
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from my knowledge, all Hawker Hurricane with serial number started Pxxxx have 3 blade propeller, so this plane we can exclude. But maybe I´m wrong. In the book American Eagle -part 1 RAF US pilots from Classic publication is this notice : poor old G was sieved with bullets.I can only hope she burned before the Huns laid their rude hands on her. From my view, this plane is L1679. Faenor |
Re: General theme for Hawker Hurricane during Phoney War and BoF
Hi all,
next photo collection is belgian Hawker Hurricane Mk.I - H27 See on this link: http://www.modelari.org/viewtopic.php?f=40&t=2145 This plane was damaged during Luftwaffe raid on airfield Schaffen on 10.5. 1940,then was repaired and flew to Le Culet airfield and there abandoned 11.5.1940. Faenor |
Re: General theme for Hawker Hurricane during Phoney War and BoF
Hi Faenor,
From "British Military Aircraft Serials 1912-1966" by Bruce Robertson (1966 Ed): P2535 - 3264, Hawker Hurricane I Built by Gloster Aircraft, 2-blade Watts propeller fitted up to P2681, 3-blade Rotol airscrews fitted from P2682. Your assessment of 3-bladed prop for P2819 is reasonable. Not definitive, as in other discussions, I have noted an occasional discrepancy with the data in this book, but very, very likely. I will go through Peter Cornwall's book again and see if there is any mention of 'G' L1679. Don't get me wrong, I am not trying to prove any point, I am just presenting you with what information I have - acting as a "Devil's Advocate" in a manner. If you have other information at hand, or if someone comes up with differing information that points in another direction and hopefully arrives at a reasonable conclusion, then I'm happy to come along for the ride. Regards, ...geoff |
Re: General theme for Hawker Hurricane during Phoney War and BoF
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To all - thanks to Nick Beal, who unlock this threads we can continue - and next area will be the other Belgian Hawker Hurricanes. Faenor |
Re: General theme for Hawker Hurricane during Phoney War and BoF
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Hawker Hurricane Mk. I mark H27 - attached is new photo and this plane http://www.modelari.org/viewtopic.php?f=40&t=2145 I have question about airfield - can somebody recon this place? Photos on burned wreck of Hurricane before the hangar: http://www.modelari.org/viewtopic.php?f=40&t=2151 Photo on 2 burned wrecks of Hurricanes on airfield area - wrecks are completely burned http://www.modelari.org/viewtopic.php?f=40&t=2152 Photo on 2 wrecks probably with Belgian Gloster Gladiator http://www.modelari.org/viewtopic.php?f=40&t=2153 This situation is described in this link: http://surfcity.kund.dalnet.se/gladiator_belgium.htm One of the Hurricane is with 3 blade propeller - probably 1 of captured RAF machine? Photo of burned wreck of Hurricane - different machine then other http://www.modelari.org/viewtopic.php?f=40&t=2154 Photo of 2 burned hurricanes with watts 2 blade propeller - from my perspective, these 2 machine are again Belgian http://www.modelari.org/viewtopic.php?f=40&t=2155 2 photos on line of destroyed Belgian Fox planes - on the 2nd photo, on the right side of line are 2 hurricanes and from my perspective, these machines looks different like other previous http://www.modelari.org/viewtopic.php?f=40&t=2156 On this place/airfield I´m searching more info I hope, that other will have photos of same Belgian hurricanes and can share with all, who are interesting in this topic. Faenor |
Re: General theme for Hawker Hurricane during Phoney War and BoF
Hi Geoff
Good selection from IWM; please note that # HU112434 is not taken at Lille / Seclin. This A / F and environment are flat, flat, flat .... It is elsewhere Bertrand |
Re: General theme for Hawker Hurricane during Phoney War and BoF
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There's a saying in English "I have no dog in this fight" - meaning I have nothing personal at stake. I am not offended, and hope I cause no offense. Observation about the above photo - the high slender wing monoplane with radial engine in the background - I think a Westland Lysander as the V-brace attached closer than mid-wing and the flap extends almost to the brace. Not sure any Belgian Foxes had radial engines (even if it's a biplane with bottom wing out of view), and Renards had rounder, less-slender wings. Would be interesting to see if the RAF lost or operated any Lysanders close to an airfield with destroyed Belgian Hurricanes. This would give an indication of whether RAF or Belgian Hurricanes. Bertrand, I trust your comment on the ground around Lille/Seclin, I would not know any better. I wonder where the photo was taken? ...geoff |
Re: General theme for Hawker Hurricane during Phoney War and BoF
http://www.modelari.org/viewtopic.php?f=40&t=2153 Not a Gladiator (cabane struts and canopy wrong, if nothing else) but perhaps a late Firefly or even Fox?
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Re: General theme for Hawker Hurricane during Phoney War and BoF
Not a Firefly
http://aviadejavu.ru/Images6/FT/FT1929/07/166-3.jpg |
Re: General theme for Hawker Hurricane during Phoney War and BoF
Hi all,
thankd to all reply during the day - I´m just amateur and interesting in this topic :-) 2 geof about 2 Hurricanes with Watts 2 blade propeller from this link http://www.modelari.org/viewtopic.php?f=40&t=2155 probably trie - the wing looks like from Westland Lysander, whcih was use just by RAF in France - I have to look in this direction too - thanks for your observation 2 Graham Boak about photo of 2 wrecks of Hurricane with Gladiator from this link : http://www.modelari.org/viewtopic.php?f=40&t=2153 notice by the photo fit to the airfield and situation and hull of the bi-plane looks like Gladiator - check with this cuttaway http://www.warintheskies.com/images/...torcutaway.jpg I think the lower wing is torn from the hull - but maybe I´m wrong All comments are welcome :-) Faenor |
Re: General theme for Hawker Hurricane during Phoney War and BoF
I agree that the Warren-style structure of the rear fuselage does look Gladiator, but the position of the cockpit canopies relative to the wing and the roundel do not look right. Either the roundel Iif that is what it is) is too far forward or the canopy too far aft, and there appears to be more canopy under the wing. Also what appears to be the forward cabane struts are too large and slope aft at the top. It may be that damage is distorting these parts, or they are something else altogether, but for the moment I am unconvinced.
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Re: General theme for Hawker Hurricane during Phoney War and BoF
The Fairey Fox's had an additional wing strut connecting the upper and lower ailerons. The wreckage that Graham is talking of does seem to have this in place (what the German soldier on the right is holding in his hand for support). There also appears to be an additional strut portion on the outer strut arrangement (giving the appearance of a reverse 'N' shape). Though the diagonal portion doesn't seem to be complete - so I can't be sure it's damaged, or a portion of the forward carbane strut viewed at an odd angle.
...geoff |
Re: General theme for Hawker Hurricane during Phoney War and BoF
Hi Graham and Geof,
thanks for your observations - just another photo at the same location from another perspective will help us figure out if it's Gloster Gladiator or another type of aircraft. That's why I ask if anyone else has a photo on that airport - Schaffen/Diest - or if this place is not filmed in the German weekly movie Thanks Faenor |
Re: General theme for Hawker Hurricane during Phoney War and BoF
Quote:
Faenor |
Re: General theme for Hawker Hurricane during Phoney War and BoF
Hello,
another interesting machine is this Hawker Hurricane Mk.I in German color. The machine is clearly in a flying condition and this is s probably a machine that has been tested in simulated battles such as Maj. Werner Molder. The pictures are probably from German film and therefore I'm looking for more information. See this link: http://www.modelari.org/viewtopic.php?f=40&t=2159 Source - internet, probably old LEMB forum Faenor |
Re: General theme for Hawker Hurricane during Phoney War and BoF
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based on info from geof, in the background there is really probably Westland Lysander During previous week I receive photo (see updated link), on which is Westland Lysander with group of Hawker Hurricanes captured by German. All information - including "The Lizzie" are welcome. http://www.modelari.org/download/file.php?id=38587 Thanks Faenor |
Re: General theme for Hawker Hurricane during Phoney War and BoF
Hi all,
nice photo from auction: https://www.ebay.de/itm/Foto-zerstor...0AAOSwvD5Z~Eui Total view of destroyed Belgian Hawker Hurricanes front of 1 hangar including some Belgian biplanes - on the right is visible Hawker Hurricane Mk.I mark H.27. I´m still searching similar view for the next part of the airfield, where will be visible collision between Hurri and Belgian biplane (probably Gloster Gladiator) Faenor |
Re: General theme for Hawker Hurricane during Phoney War and BoF
Hi all,
we can start again :-) There is the collection of photos from Auchy-au-bois. Based on my investigation, this is Miles Master from 85. SQ together with 4 wrecks of Hawker Hurricane´s. http://www.modelari.org/viewtopic.php?f=40&t=2564 My question is, if we can links these Hurricanes with some of losses of 85. SQ (probably with status ´lost 05/1940´). Faenor |
Good manners
25th March 2020, 06:02
Faenor Re: "Interesting" ________________________________________ Quote: Originally Posted by rof120 Hello Faenor Please do not say or write like this: is there somebody who is interesting in the scrapyard …...? I´m interesting mainly in Hawker Hurricane Somebody, or you, is NOT interesting but interested (interestED). You are interested in airpower, so you find airpower interesting. Okay? ---------------------------------------------------------- Faenor's reply: Hi rof120, please fuck on me and don´t push me in this time. If you have not any info about Hawkers Hurricanes, please don´t send me this fucking message. Do you understand me or not? Thanks Faenor ----------------------------------------- Rof120's reply: What a delicious person you are. Congratulations. I tried to help you with the English language and to be useful to others too. We can’t write “I’m interesting”, which looks quite ridiculous. You don’t want any help? That’s all right for me but you need not use such language and insult me when I tried to help you (in private…). Your Royal Majesty is all too sensitive. There is the same difference IN ALL LANGUAGES between “interested” and “interesting”. If you don’t understand that and, worse still, refuse to listen, then I feel sorry for you because you’re a poor guy. Quite obviously you’re insane and need psychiatric help. In the future I’m not even going to read any post from you. If I have got the most wonderful information or pictures on “Hurricanes” or whatever you like I’ll keep it for me. Satisfied? |
Re: General theme for Hawker Hurricane during Phoney War and BoF
Hi Rof120,
I don´t know why, but you just posted there just my the 2nd answer on your PM, the 1st one was fine and not attacking on you. If you don´t want discuss this topic, share photos and infos, it is on you - I´m not pushing or mobbing you like you me about use right wording. Have a nice day and please don´t destroy this topic with your personal problem like in other topics. Thanks Faenor |
Re: General theme for Hawker Hurricane during Phoney War and BoF
I am locking this thread. Both of you guys posts are ridiculous and not appropriate for this board. Start again and you will be banned.
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