Il-2 killer Joachim Brendel
 

Hi Guys

I am trying to find Brendel's 1945 victories. There should be thirty-five in total, his 153rd confirmed claim on 24th October 1944 was his eighty-second Il-2, one more claim(Jak-3) occurs on 14th December 1944 then the micro films have no more entries for Brendel. sometimes I read eighty-eight Il-2's , othertime over ninety. The 1945 details I have are as follows, and brings his known total of Il-2's to eighty-seven, but I do believe the final total exceeded ninety, all the claims are with the stab.III./Jg51 as a Hauptmann:-

14th January 1945 unknown type
18th February 1945 four unknown types in the Heilgenbeil area
19th February 1945 two unknown type
20th February 1945 three unknown type
21st February 1945 three Il-2's and an Airacobra
23rd February 1945 unknown type
4th March 1945 two Il-2's(nr.174 and nr.175) found on the KBT documents.
8th March 1945 Pe-2(nr.176) at 1432 hrs, found on the KBT documents.
9th March 1945 two unknown type(nr.177 and Nr.178) at around 12?? hrs, found on the KBT documents.
18th March 1945 three unknown type
29th April 1945 unknown type(nr.189)

Am 99% sure his log-book survived the war, and he seems to have been an honest claimer. Being an Il-2 specialist which involved the risk of flying at low altitude, and thus vunerable to ground-fire, surely he was the most useful of Eastern front aces!

Grateful for any assistance.

Kind Regards

Johannes

Re: Il-2 killer Joachim Brendel
 

20Feb45 Yak-3 (Group Normandie-Nieman) Lt. Pierre Bleton (POW) Pillau
(From Christopher Shores book on Soviet aces). I don't know where he got his information on that one.

Re: Il-2 killer Joachim Brendel
 

Thanks for that.

Kind Regards

Johannes

Re: Il-2 killer Joachim Brendel
 

Good evening Johannes,

have the 11 missing 1945 claims of Brendel ever re-appeared ?

Michael

Re: Il-2 killer Joachim Brendel
 

Hi Michael

Have not progressed with Brendel. I know his flugbuch for 1943 exists, was hoping it, or another ran until the end of the war. He does appear on several KBT papers for 1945.

Kind Regards

Johannes

Re: Il-2 killer Joachim Brendel
 

Good afternoon Johannes,

in the internet I've found 7 Brendel claims (1941-1944) that are not in your list.
However, if you have (photographic) proof for his 150th kill being claimed on 18Oct1944 these would be obsolescent.

Have a nice Saturday,

Michael

Re: Il-2 killer Joachim Brendel
 

Hi Michael

How detailed are these seven claims? If there are really four answers to this:-

1: They are made up.

2: Somebody has misidentified names from the mikrofilms, in which case they will be details.

3: They are unconfirmed claims.......these usually do not have exact times for the claims. I do believe at least his earlier flugbuch survives(but where) flugbücher almost always do not give the exact time of the claim, or altitude.

4: The mikrofilms are less than 100% complete at this point, and I believe they are, your seven would suggest only 95% complete.

If the seven claims are detailed, I will investigate if you give the exact details.

Kind Regards

Johannes

Re: Il-2 killer Joachim Brendel
 

Good afternoon Johannes,

these are the 7 odd kills:

• 16,3.42 2./JG 51 Lt
• 10,6.43 1./JG 51 Lt Pe-2 1937 3000
• 9,7.43 1./JG 51 Oblt Il-2 542 1000
• 22,7.43 1./JG 51 Il-2 1308 100
• 3,8.43 8./JG 51 Oblt LaGG-3 1627 1100
• 6,8.43 8./JG 51 Oblt Il-2 1218 200
• 28,8.44 1./JG 51 Hptm Yak-9 1411 1000

You can crosscheck them here:
http://cieldegloire.com/001_brendel_j.php
They could easily be ruled out if we had some kind of photo or news bulletin that confirms that Brendels 150th kill was indeed scored on 18Oct1944.

Have a nice Sunday,

Michael

Re: Il-2 killer Joachim Brendel
 

Hi Michael

That for 16th March 1942 is vague, could be an unconfirmed claim, but likely nothing.
That for 10th June 1943 is a confusion/combination of two claims, note two claims with the same amerk number 393.
That for 9th July 1943 again confusion, previous claim amerk out of sequence.
Those for 6th & 3rd August 1943 were made by Hptm Fritz Stendel. moreover Brendel not flying at this period due to wounds.

That for 22nd July 1943 is simply a mis-reading of time, actually 1302 hrs.

That for 28th August 1944 is a mistake on my behave, the details you gave are correct, mine mistakenly had a time of 0845 hrs, and wrong aircraft type of La-5, can't explain how I made the mistake, but my mistake.........sorry.

150th confirmed claim was on 22nd October 1944. Apart from five claims in early March 1945 which can be confirmed from KBT papers, all other 1945 claims must be considered suspect, or at least open to question.

Kind Regards

Johannes

Re: Il-2 killer Joachim Brendel
 

Johannes

In my notes I have the following information on Brendel‘s claims.

1st abschuss on 4th Fiendflug on 29.06.41
2nd abschuss on 120th Fiendflug on 31.03.42
50th abschuss on 412th Fiendflug on 09.07.43
100th abschuss on 551st Fiendflug on 22.11.43
150th abschuss on 792nd Fiendflug on 16.10.44

Unfortunately, I don’t have the reference where I got this information from but such information would only be avaliable from the flugbuch which obviously must have survived, thus could only have come from someone who had access to the books.

I raise this data because of the confusion mentioned with the 28.08.44 claim in the earlier post. The details you have for the 28.08.44 claim in your list (that you sent to me earlier) is for a claim on the 26.08.44 yet it‘s dated 28.08.44. You seem to be missing the 28.08.44 claim as shown below. Both the 26.08.44 and 28.08.44 claims are in the Woods list and Priens work and the annerk number also fits.

26.08.44 Hptm. Joachim Brendel 1./JG 51 LaGG-3  13 264: at 500 m. 08.45 Film C. 2035/II Anerk: Nr. 608
28.08.44 Hptm. Joachim Brendel 1./JG 51 Yak-9  13 245 at 1.000 m. 14.11 Film C. 2035/II Anerk: Nr. 722

I mentioned the Fiendflug information because if you include this extra claim, (and include the 2 ASM claims of 14.12.42 & 28.07.43, that may or may not have been confirmed) to your claims list, the total on 16.10.44 meets exactly 150 abschuss as per the fiendflug data. When not including the 2 ASM claims, then that would make the 150th confirmed claim on 19.10.44 instead of the 22.10.44.

You may want to check this out. BTW I agree with your comments on the other claims mentioned in this thread.

Regards,

Craig...

Re: Il-2 killer Joachim Brendel
 

Hi Graig

Many thanks for your query, and you are correct, I somehow merged the two claims, details of the claim for 26th August as above, with the exception that it was not a LaGG-3, but a La-5. I'll add another claim into his abschusse list.
In my experience A.S.M claims usually get confirmed, but usually it takes longer than normal, and the paperwork I think gets sent to a different office. I have collected many copies of flugbucher in recent years and judged this on their comments. Most A.S.M claims seem to be because of lack of witness(but usually no comments in flugbuch), but usually have ground witnesses, whereas if a pilot marks a claim as O.Z in his flugbuch, then it never appears on the mikrofilms, which I should think means no ground witness either.........most common for Stab pilots(because they flew alone, or at least in a reduced number) Wilhelm Batz is a good example, Johannes Wiese another.

Seems we two have concluded the same about his flugbuch surviving the war, at least for 1943, and probably 1944, 1945 would be of most help to us. I believe that Josten and Brendel were the highest scoring pilots of 1945, and as far as I can tell were honest guys.

I have been struck though in general about how small a group in the East they generally flew in !

Kind Regards

Johannes

Re: Il-2 killer Joachim Brendel
 

Johannes,
Yes, Brendel gives an impression of honesty. Here is what I have on him to date:

Joachim Brendel

6.7.42/1925 MiG-3 Was this Lt. Stepan Ivanovich Tsarevskiy of 27 IAP KIA this date?

9.7.42/0420 MiG-3 Was this from 519 IAP? Lt. Nikolay Alexandrovich Smirnov (AE CO) KIA this date

18.1.43/0802, 0805 and 0809 3 x Pe-2s 2nd Eskadrilya, 202 BAP, 263 BAD, 1 BAK, 3 VA. Six losses: No. 6/115 of Lt. M V Orlov KIA, Lt. P G Slobodyan and Serzhant S I Filonchik baled out POW; crew of Serzhants P A Teplishchev, A I Golovlev and S E Vilkov; No.3/104 (Tail No.15) of Lt. B S Kardapoltsev, Mladshiy Leitenant A K Bondarenko and Serzhant A I Kozhbakov all baled out over Lake Karataj, one crewmen died on the way down and the others were KIA on the ground (in a gun battle with Germans trying to take them POW?) crew of Lt. Aleksandr Vasilyevich Shemyakin, Lt. N G Prikhodko Serzhant V F Pavlov (fate not specified) No. 19/104 (Tail No.18) of Serzhant A P Sozinov, Lt. T M Shapovalov and Serzhant V K Kalinichenko at least one crewman apparently evaded capture, other two KIA; crew of Serzhant Viktor Viktorovich Chirov, Ml. Lt. V T Gaevsky and Serzhant F I Mikheev (Jennewein claimed 5 as well)

9.3.43/0727 IL-2 Sturmovik 825 ShAP. This was likely Mayor Prokorov as he was first to go down. Bellylanded 8 km south of Zalegoshch, he returned to his unit on the 13.3.43

9.3.43/0732 IL-2 Sturmovik 825 ShAP. Other losses were S-t. Mikhail Aleksandrovich Kuznetsov, St. S-t. Vasiliy Ivanovich Ivlev, S-t. Egor Egorovich Ekimov and S-t. Aleksandr Vasil'evich Pomazkin all MIA (Klaus Dietrich claimed one and Guenther Schack claimed two)

6.5.43/1330 IL-2 Sturmovik 41 ShAP, 299 ShAD. 15 losses (remainder to flak, only one crew returned) (Herbert Epphardt claimed one, Josef Jennewein claimed 5)

7.5.43/0505 and 0515 2 x IL-2 Sturmoviks 58 and 79 GShAP, 2 GShAD (only 1 aircraft returned: Kapt Parshin and Snr Sgt Matveev crashed near Novosil). Known losses include Lt. Mingalev of 79 ShAP. Greatest losses to fighters appears to have been by 58 GShAP (Epphardt and Bareuther claimed two each)

28.5.43/1124 La-5 Known to be engaged against 160 IAP. I am awaiting further details on this one

8.6.43/1911 and 1912 2 x IL-2 Sturmoviks 614 ShAP. Includes Kapitans A Smirnov, P Astapenko and A Kovgan, M/Lts P Varapayev, A Gamynin, V Kramar, N Chebotaryov, G Maltzev and A. Rezinkin, Lt. I Kosmachev, St. Serj E Saburov and Serj. G Sorokin. Orel-Mzensk sector (Loeber, Josten and Ziegenfuss also claimed)

10.6.43/1937 Yak-1 122 IAP, two losses: Maj. Tzagojko damaged, bellylanded behind German lines and Mladshiy Leytenant Nepokrytov MIA/KIA. Additionally 162 IAP lost Starshin Seluka MIA/KIA as well. (These three losses are accounted for by Brendel, Schwarz and Haase’s claims)

6.7.43/0539 Boston III 8 GBAP, 57 BAP, 745 BAP/221 BAD of 16 VA (Central Front). 16 losses for the day 8 GBAP lost 7, 745 BAP lost 6 and 57 BAP lost 3 Bostons all up. 6 are attributed to fighters

7.7.43/0820 Boston III 745 BAP lost 3 Bostons this day and this was almost certainly one of them

9.7.43/0541 and 0544 2 x IL-2 Sturmoviks 299 ShAD. Ml.Lt. Gerasim Petrovich Zadorozhnyy was attacked by 7 Fw190s and there were other losses (I am awaiting further details…)

15.9.43/1705 Yak-9 1 VA or 240 IAD, 3 VA. Day's losses include Lt. Dmitriy Kudryavtsev of 86 GIAP KIA , Ml.Lt. Yurii Vasilievich Gromov of 263 IAP, 215 IAD, 8 IAK KIA. 149 IAP lost Evgenii Nikolaevich Klimov KIA (plenty of scope for this one to be a legitimate victory, therefore…)

17.9.43/1043 Pe-2 587 BAP suffered KLAVDIYA "KLAVA" YAKOVLEVNA FOMICHEVA shot down WIA this date (possibly by Brendel, Josten or Lindner)

12.10.43/1120 Yak-9 Morning's Yak-9 losses in Orsha sector include Ivan Chernii of 18 GIAP, 303 IAD, 1VA baled out after combat with Fw190s but KIA by German infantry (Brendel, Vechtel or Grumme likely shot him down)

13.10.43/0855 Pe-2 128 GBAP. 4 losses: Gv.Ml.Lt. Aleksey Pavlovich Simenskoy safe and Gds. St. Lt. Ivan Isaevich Prokorenko MIA (both attributed to Flak), Gv.Lts. Pavel Sergeevich Kukushkin (forcelanded WIA after fighter attack, POW a year later) and Alexei Kuzmich Barinov (POW, escaped 1944)

24.6.44/1036 IL-2 Sturmovik mH (Bareuther claimed one as well) 946 ShAP, 196 ShAD, 4 ShAK, 16 VA had an encounter with Fw190s this date, claiming one shot down for no losses. Do these claims actually pertain to that encounter?

30.6.44/1750 La-5 ("LaGG-5") Possibly 67 GIAP, 273 IAD, 6 IAK. Lt. V P Alekseev forcelanded WIA (Losigkeit and Wever also claimed La-5s during the course of the day, I haven’t managed to pin down the loss to a specific claim yet)

29.7.44/1005 Yak-9 Possibly Kapitan Vladimir Gerogievich Shchegolev (14 kills + 3 shared), HSU, OL, 3 x ORB and OPW 2nd Class of 162 IAP, KIA over Bialystok

14.8.44/1722 IL-2 Sturmovik mH Possibly Lt. Fyodor Ivanovich Rytov and Serzhant Andrey Egorovich Ershov of 618 ShAP, KIA near Augustow (Loeffler and Eichel-Streiber also claimed during the course of the day and again, I cannot pin the loss to a claim yet…)

20.8.44/1242 IL-2 Sturmovik mH The day’s combats are a little confusing here as well: 570 ShAP, 231 ShAD, 2 ShAK definitely engaged by Fw190s this day but there appear to have been no losses. 618 ShAP lost crew of Ml.Lt. Anatoliy Grigorievich Shovkoplyas and Serzhant Nikolay Ivanovich Martynenko KIA this date
25.8.44/0714 IL-2 Sturmovik mH Possibly 658 ShAP, 299 ShAD. Kapitan I P Smyshlyaka shot down and Mladshiy Leytenant N V Vichkapov damaged but made it home over Vyshkuva area. (Heinz Busse also claimed)

22.9.44/1027 A-20 Boston III 1 GMTAP VVS-KBF. Losses include St.Lt. Mark Ivanovich Zhilenkov KIA, Lt. Aleksandr Fedorovich Baranov, Lt. Thepermiaks (?), Gv.Ml.Lt. Mikhail Petrovich Permyakov and Ml.Lt. Sergei Petrovich Pudov all KIA (there were 4 other claims…)

20.2.45 Yak-3 Said to be from Groupe Normandie-Niemen, 1 VA. Lieutenant Pierre Bleton. POW, escaped and returned

Re: Il-2 killer Joachim Brendel
 

Good evening Gentlemen,

how do you like this list ?
http://luftwaffe.cz/stormovik.html

Cheers,

Michael

Re: Il-2 killer Joachim Brendel
 

As far as pure victory tallies go, it's great. But if you make no attempt to match the claims to actual losses... ...then is it really true that Kittel shot down more IL-2s than Brendel? Is it really true that Brendel shot down more than Wiese in turn...?

Do you really want to go on blindly accepting the ever-so-fantastic victory tallies of these aces without seeing if they have real substantiation? If the Russians did not lose an IL-2 every single time Kittel claimed to have shot one down then it simply is not true to say that "Kittel shot down 94 Sturmoviks". It isn't the cold war anymore...

Re: Il-2 killer Joachim Brendel
 

I think the truth is that we will never be able to say for certain how many kills a certain pilot got, unless we can match each claim to a definite a/c killed. I think those instances are in a vast minority.
In those cases where we can't, it's impossible to say we have all the information relevant. It is fact that many records were lost.
Unless someone can reconcile the number of aircraft produced vs the number left at the end vs the number claimed to have been shot down, lost in accidents etc WITH CERTAINTY, and then match that to all the reports, there will almost always be uncertainty.
I think there will ALWAYS be instances where information is inaccurate or incomplete or censored, so to try to pin down exact numbers will in I'd say the vast majority of cases be a lost cause.
Historians and experts have trawled through all the available data. Be happy with what we have. It won't get any better given pretty much all the relevant personnel are now no longer with us, and it's now 70-odd years ago. Even the more recent wars have discrepancies.
Peter

Re: Il-2 killer Joachim Brendel
 

Hi Guys

Based on actual evidence of claims, and including those making false, but official claims, list should read:-

Kittel 91+
Brendel 87+(however I have ten of his claims missing, and with him almost exactly half of his claims were Il-2;s)
Josten 79
Schall & Wiese 62
Rudorffer 58
Hafner 57
Eisenach 53
Borchers 48+
Batz 48
Bachnick 42
Robert Weiss 41
von Eichel-Streiber & Lipfert 40
Trenkel & Brändle 39
Düttmann & Fonnekold 37+
Schleinhege 37
Helmut Missner & Heinz Schmidt 36
Adolf Nehrig & Paul-Hinrich Dähne 35+
Oskar Romm & Werner Lucas 34
Kurt Dombacher & Gerhard Hoffmann 33+
Barkhorn 33
Hans Waldmann 32
Erich Leie 31
Günther Schack, Bernhard Vechtel & Anton Resch 30+

Another sixty from 20 until 29.

Erich Hartmann a lowly 14+, Hartmann seemed reluctant to fly at low altitude which is what Il-2's did, his 4% ratio must be one of the lowest.

+= he has other claims that I do not have, or claims that he did not, or was not sure of the aircraft type.

Il-2's became more prevalent 1943 onwards.

Kind Regards

Johannes

Re: Il-2 killer Joachim Brendel
 

Hello Johannes,

I think Kittel's traditional score of 267 includes 2 unconfirmed on 30Jun41 (Il-2's) and excludes the Il-2 on the last day of his life.
That means there were 92 Il-2's within his official score of 267.

Brendel has according to your list at least 87 Il-2 kills.
11 kills are listed with unknown types.
10 kills are not listed..
With a percentage of 52% Il-2's among his known kills Brendel may have been credited with an Il-2 total of ~98.

Johannes were you sure when you wrote "...On 28th July 1943 he was shot down by Russian flak, baling-out injured from his Bf109..." ?
Wasn't his unit equipped with the Fw190 then ?

Have a nice afternoon,

Michael

Re: Il-2 killer Joachim Brendel
 

Hello Knusel, Did the two unconfirmed Il-2 that you mentioned for Kittel come from his flight book? I have that the I. Gruppe as in base transit on the 30 June 1941 and no victory claims for them that day. The II. and III. Gruppe were the only ones claiming on the 30 June 1941 and they were busy with SB, Ar-2 and DB-3 from the 1 BK DBA and VVS KBF.

Re: Il-2 killer Joachim Brendel
 

Hi Guys

Sorry, senior moment is was a Fw190 not Bf109 on 28th July 1943.

Also eight-seven Il-2's are what I have dates for, so eighty-seven is the minimum, as Michael states working the percentages another ten or more would appear likely.

Fact is that Brendel was the top Il-2 killer. Ernst Obermeier states "more than ninety Il-2's" and it would appear his statement is very likely correct.

Regards

Johannes

Re: Il-2 killer Joachim Brendel
 

Respectfully,

Some of the more excellent published and unpublished material that examine specific campaigns give a far better impression - it's not as bad as all that, words like "vast majority of cases" etc just don't ring true if you take a look at works like Donald Caldwell's JG 26 War Diary, Christopher Shore's A History of the Mediterranean Air War and 2nd Tactical Air Force War Diaries and Theo Boiten's Nachtjagd War Diaries (soon to be released in much-updated form to cover the Mediterranean and Eastern Theatres). Some of the blogs and articles on specific Eastern Front campaigns are brilliant too. Yes, there are uncertainties, but I can't agree that they are the vast majority. Not by a long shot.

Re: Il-2 killer Joachim Brendel
 

Hi Guys

Regarding "we will never known exactly the totals of pilots".
Personally I was warned-off about mentioning any fraudsters in publications, however sort of got around this by mentioning "his claims match Allied losses well" to those honest guys. A honest guy does not mean all his claims crashed, they were by rules record where the enemy crashed, some I believe thought they had shot down the enemy, but didn't hang around under threat of being shot down by others, I would say if 65 percent of his claims hit the ground, he was honest.

I know others where their claim was "unconfirmed", but has been proven to have fallen, but alas I still have to call in unconfirmed in their biography.

My personal view is that there were so many guys without the Ritterkreuz who were so much better men than Ritterkreuzträger who got their fame by cheating the system, in fact these unsung heroes were more the unsung grinders.....nothing seemed to come easy for them. Fortunately the DKiG often came there way, and in my opinion it is thus an underrated decoration.

I have noticed also that so many more claims in the /west were unconfirmed as opposed to those in the East, my theory is that those in the East were very often behind enemy lines, whereas those in the West had there crash-sites investigated, so the authorities knew almost exactly now many enemy aircraft had crashed(excluding those into water, or back at their home bases).
The most accurate claimers were the NJG pilots, guess a burning aircraft is so obvious at night, yet a crew could work fraudulent claims as they flew alone, yet they seemed honest guys....even the high-scorers.
Your see many a huge-claimer in the East, reduced to the occasional claim in the West, I "think" that largely they just couldn't get away with so much in the West.

Regards

Johannes

Re: Il-2 killer Joachim Brendel
 

It reminds me of the case of the so-called Nr 1 French ace of WWII, and the legal problems you have if you contest his often repeated high score. Hey, I did not tell any name, OK ?

Re: Il-2 killer Joachim Brendel
 

Hello Laurent,

you mean Clostermann urged aviation historians to acknowledge a score of 20 [17+6 shared] ?

Cheers,

Michael

Re: Il-2 killer Joachim Brendel
 

No he sued Mr Ehrengardt (an user of this forum) in 2001 when the latter wrote that he could only find 12 victories for him, while the number used at the time was 33.

Re: Il-2 killer Joachim Brendel
 

So using the words “possibly” and “no matching record can be found” seems like were real history has to be constrained too or else.

Re: Il-2 killer Joachim Brendel
 

Dear Gentlemen,

can we agree on the following Joachim Brendel data ?

1. 189 kills
2. kill #1: 29.6.1941
3. kill #100: 22.11.1943
4. all of his kills scored in JG51
5. 91 Bf109 kills and 98 Fw190 kills
6. likely the top Il-2 destroyer

Michael

Re: Il-2 killer Joachim Brendel
 

Hi Michael

Can't comment about the Bf109/Fw190 split, but agree with everything else. In fact Brendel was very,very likely the biggest Il-2 killer.

Kind Regards

Johannes

Re: Il-2 killer Joachim Brendel
 

Good morning Johannes,

I've written an eMail about this to Petr Kacha.

Have a nice Wednesday,

Michael