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is not 'Dry Gulcher' at all? Cheers Stig |
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Thanks Ed
#1442 link 10 : Same photo is page 80 of Camera on "MS406C1" by B.Belcarz. He gives n°324 for GC III/2 -link 5 & 6 : Bloch 152 n°539 of GC II/1 ; same a/c (rudder via BA archiv) page 186 of the book on Bloch 152 by Joanne (LELA) Bertrand |
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#13 is I believe Blenheim L8857 of 113 Sqn, destroyed on 11 May 40 during an air-raid on Condé-Vraux.
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You're welcome Bertrand. And thank you Andy.
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#1 is I believe Blenheim R3602 of 53 Sqn, which landed damaged at Rouen/Boos on 6 Jun 40 after being attacked by Bf109s. One of the crew later died. The aircraft was abandoned at Rouen.
#3 ah, the famous twin-engined Battle :). That's 53 Sqn Blenheim L9332/PZ-Z I think, abandoned at Vitry. #4 is a Greek Bloch MB151, sigma 173, abandoned at Larissa! |
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#1 With regard to R3602 I am not saying you are wrong, but I have a photo of another 53 Sq Blenheim also coded PZ-N but on its belly (this one here has clearly landed with its wheels down) Checking Cornwell's BofF then and now, he also has a photo of a PZ-N on its belly on 6 June 1940 and claims this is R3602. #2 Another one with a bit of a problem. Jim Halley claimed L9332 to have been lost 13 May 1940 to Flak and crashing at Vitry. Unfortunately it seems Cornwell does not agree and claims this was L4861 which he says was repaired and finally lost 18 May (the latter date also fits with Halley). Does anyone straight away have the "correct" date for L9332? #3 Indeed, but surely it is a Delta and not Sigma? Cheers Stig |
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Hi,
#1446 link 1 Yes Andy you are right it is the same a/c wheels up and wheels down. The background, the damage on the fin, painting of code do not suffer from any dispute Bertrand Attachment 20223 Attachment 20224 |
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Hi
#1446 link 3 Formerly P9332 at Vitry-en-Artois L4861 (n°53 sqdn) had accident/incident on 29/03/1940 ; do not know if it will fly again. Bertrand Attachment 20225 |
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Are you saying the Germans pushed the aircraft away from the open field and retracted the undercarriage? If I understand Cornwell correct the aircraft belly landed (or the undercarriage was retracted after landing - which to me sounds a bit odd!) The photo on sale now show a captured aircraft with props intact (no belly landing!) Cheers Stig |
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Sorry but again I don't follow you Presumably you mean L9332 (and not P9332) and the photo you attach is presumably the same aircraft referred to by Andy, ie L9332. With regard to L4861 I have no listing of it as damaged on 29 March 1940 (source please?) but unless every RAF record is wrong it certainly survived until 18 May 1940 Cheers Stig |
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Cross finger for P vs L (detail)
Even if I am French I am also visiting TNA at Kew and do researches info for L4861 came from Air 35-106 BoF T&N is not the bible. And why not WH ot LH soldiers could play with the Blenheim ? It is SAME aircraft |
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Thanks Bertrand
I still have doubts with regard to PZ-N though. Cheers Stig |
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Hello all,
. R3602 PZ-N. Yes, I agree it is the same aircraft. #1446, link 1 is the first photo of it that I have seen with the wheels down, so thanks to Ed West yet again. Based on photos of some other aircraft left on French airfields the Germans naturally cleared away wreckage, sometimes roughly dragging these to the edges of the aerodrome. That appears to be the case here which caused the undercarriage to collapse. Incidentally the only photo I have seen which shows the serial of this PZ-N is in the Peter Cornwell book, ‘THE BATTLE OF FRANCE, THEN & NOW’ on page 431. . L9332 PZ-Z. From my research into this aircraft I believe the following is correct. L9332 PZ-Z (P/O Massey) was slightly damaged by machine-gun fire on 10 May 1940 and was landed at Vitry-en-Artois – the advanced landing ground for the unit. It was almost certainly flown back to Poix airfield that evening and was quickly repaired. (53 Sqn. F.541) Next the logbook of Sgt. B.J. Brooks, observer in F/Lt. Brown’s crew, records they flew ‘PZ-Z’ on May 11th from Poix to Vitry to be ready for the next mission. This happened on May 13th , a reconnaissance mission over Belgium. Brooks also notes in the logbook that the aircraft was badly damaged by “Strong AA MG and SAA fire”, and that the air gunner was wounded. The flight began at Vitry-en-Artois and appears to have landed back there (a fold in the logbook pages makes it hard to read). That is the last entry for ‘PZ-Z’ in his logbook. Brooks only recorded the squadron code and aircraft letter combination, not the serial, during his wartime career. Both the 53 Sqn. ORB F.541and the AIR 81/316 Casualty File record the Brown/Brooks/Cavett crew flying in L4861 for their mission on May 13th . This seems fine until one looks closer at all of the F.541 entries for May 10th – 19th inclusive. L4861 is shown in the F.541 flying operationally twice on May 11th , twice on May 13th , twice on May 14th, twice on May 16th and once on May 18th when it was lost. It is not recorded by serial in the F.541 for this last flight but is so in the AIR 81 file. Oddly ‘UNITED IN EFFORT’ by Jock Manson on page 31 (correctly) has L9332 as the Blenheim on this flight, so the author must have had another source, or access to the logbook of Brooks, to include it. According to the F.541 the Brown/Brooks/Cavett crew flew L4861 on May 13th from 0550-0735 hours. On the first mission of the day the F.541 records L4861 was “seriously damaged and returned to A.L.G. (Vitry) on one engine. AG wounded in leg”. Later the same day the F.541 on the same page shows L4861 with P/O Steuart-Richardson as pilot flying a sortie from 1355-1520 hours. I cannot see L4861 being repaired so quick at an ALG and flying operationally again a mere 6 hours 20 minutes later. Recall L4861 also flew another 5 missions over the next 5 days ! So the first mission on the 13th must have been in a different aircraft. It is also worth noting the following. The AIR 81 file for this incident is a short one with a mere six pages. The all-important initial casualty telegram from the unit – surely originating from the main base at Poix – does not include any serial. The serial (L4861) only appears once, in a letter from 53 Sqn. to the Air Ministry on 29 June 1940 amplifying details of the incident. Before this could be done the unit had to request from the Air Ministry a copy of the original 13 May 1940 casualty telegram as they could not find a copy ! If one sees only the 53 Sqn. ORB or the Brooks logbook in isolation then one reasonably assumes the former is correct and the latter wrong. Viewed together however the real story is revealed, but even so a careful study of all the F.541 entries is required. . Therefore I contend that the May 10th damage to L9332 (P/O Massey) did happen but was easily repairable (“Light MG fire”) and that it was flown again on the 13th (F/Lt. Brown), seriously damaged and later abandoned as per the many photos when Vitry was evacuated on May 18th. The squadron F.540 records at 11.45 a.m. on the 13th that “F/Lt Brown and crew returned by car from A.L.G. Vitry owing to aircraft being too badly damaged to fly”. This also explains the subsequent numerous flights in L4861 before its loss on May 18th. In fact L4861 was flown six times by P/O Steuart-Richardson from May 11th to 16th and maybe a seventh too and L4861 seems to have been his regular aircraft. AIR 81/447 casualty file confirms the loss of L4861 on May 18th with P/O Royle and crew. Royle (in 1945) stated he had been flying in ‘PZ-M’ when shot down. L4861 was damaged in a taxying accident on soft ground on 29 March 1940 with the blame put on the unnamed pilot. Clearly the damage was slight. There is no reference to repair on the F.78 aircraft history card. As Bertrand says the source for this is the AIR 35/106 file in TNA. Exactly the same few details appear in the AIR 35/138 which also deals with RAF accidents in France. . Hope this helps with the histories and fates of these Blenheims. . Martin Gleeson. |
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Many thanks Martin for your detailed and confirmation replies for theses three a/c lost in France. The challenge now is to find a photo of the PZ-M for the L4861.....
Bertrand |
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Sounds conclusive enough Martin.
There is a photo of PZ-N in Cornwell's BofF with its wheels up on page 431. His interpretation is that the wheels were up before the British left. This at least indicates his photo source was either British or French. Rather surprising to see a photo of the aircraft with its wheels down on the German e-bay (indicating this is how it was found) The problem (as usual) is that none of the photos are dated or listing any source. What is your opinion about the time frame between the photos? Cheers Stig |
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Thanks to all for the extra information on those Blenheims. I had actually looked at a lot of sources before concluding that #1 was R3602 and #3 was L9332. As we all know research is a never-ending thing, and some of the older sources, although compiled at the time with the best information available, are now being overtaken in the light of further research.
I will try to list my reasoning in future if there is likely to be any doubt about my findings! Stig, yes, quite correct, Greek is obviously not my strong point. Delta 173 it is. Cheers, Andy |
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Stig,
. Re. Blenheim R3602. My best guess is that, at most, there were weeks between the photos. I base this on the similar vegetation and the probability that the Germans would not want useless abandoned wrecks on the parts of the airfield they wished to us. Also the Blenheim on its belly does not look to be any more badly ‘souvenired’ or vandalised. . Andy, . I have noted the thread on Battle L5524 on the RAF Commands forum, but have refrained from comment so far until I obtain more information. This time last year I ordered copies of the AIR 81 casualty files for L5524 and L5437, but of course Covid-19 intervened. I do not expect to have them for months yet. There are many photos of L5524, but none I know of that identify L5437. My money is still on L5524 with the Gulley crew. There is only a single grave visible in the many photos of the L5524 wreck. I would say too that it is unusual for serials to be transposed in the way they appear to be, L5437 with Gulley and L5524 with Beale, in the AIR 81 files but this seems to be the case here. The AIR 81 index does have many date errors and typos in the serials noted. . Regards, . Martin. |
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Thanks Ed.
#1462 link 2 : Given as a loss during night of 29/30 august 1940. Hampden I P4372 of n°44 sqdn lost with one KIA and three POW close Cologne. Bertrand |
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You're welcome Bertrand.
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Hi all,
new photo for me - Hawker Hurricane: https://www.ebay.de/itm/14160-Foto-L...75.c100623.m-1 Does anyone know more information? Looks like some scrapyard Faenor |
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Post 1467/2 4230146. A very interesting history.
http://www.joebaugher.com/usaf_serials/1942_2.html |
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Thanks Versuch for pointing out this particular life and losses of this B-17 !
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There seems to be some confusion over the Luftwaffe use of this aircraft.
Baugher says it was A3+BB, then A3+EE. However, Dave Osborne's excellent "B-17 Fortress Master Log" says it was A3+CE. |
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Hi
left side https://www.ebay.de/itm/76-Foto-FRAN...IAAOSwc1VgCw0d Could it be code LK on right side ? Bertrand |
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OH-LDB. Awful photo or lousy scanning.... Cheers Stig |
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https://www.ebay.de/itm/original-4-x...EAAOSwN6hgCz8m
77 Squadron Whitley Z6578, coned by searchlights of Flakscheinwerfer Regiment 1 and shot down on 17-18 May 1941 by Lt. Loos 2./NJG1 Cheers, Theo |
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Thanks Ed
1477: #1 : it is MS 406 n°308, "8" of GC II/2, 3ème escadrille 13/05/1940 of Sgt Breitenstein ; abandoned at Laon Bertrand |
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You're welcome Bertrand.
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