I./ZG 1 claims in 1939 - 1940 - any info?
 

Hi all!

Does anybody have info about I./ZG 1 victories on this period?

Poland, 1939;

Denmark, 1940;

Holland & France, 1940.

I have only this notes;

Date - Pilot - Enemy a/c type - Area - Time - Confirm

01.09.39 - ?./ZG 1 - pilot wanting - PZL P.24 – Warszawa -17:30- probably
04.09.39 - ?./ZG 1 - pilot wanting - PZL P.23 - Nakło - 12:00 - yes
06.09.39 - 3./ ZG 1 - Oblt.Walter Ehle - PZL P.24 - Warszawa – 5:15 - yes
07.09.39 - 1./ZG 1 - Oblt Victor Mölders - PZL P.37 - Radzymin – 16:10 - yes
07.09.39 - 3./ ZG 1 - Oblt.Walter Ehle - PZL P.37 - Radzymin – 16:10 - yes
07.09.39 - 3./ZG 1 - Lt.Wilhelm Spies(?) - PZL P.37 - Radzymin – 16:10-yes
17.09.39 - ?./ZG 1 - pilot wanting - PZL P.24 - Gabin - ? - yes ?

Walter Ehle had 3 victories with I./ZG 1, what is 3rd?
Same thing about Eduard Tratt - I know onli this:
1 1.6.1940 - Hurricane 1./ZG 1 Dunkirk
2 1.6.1940 - Hurricane 1./ZG 1 Dunkirk
3 1.6.1940 - Hurricane 1./ZG 1 Dunkirk

With best wishes from Russia,

Eugen.

Re: I./ZG 1 claims in 1939 - 1940 - any info?
 

Hello Eugen,

the claims for Poland 1939 you have listed are coming from my own work published in Poland in 2002 (Luftwaffe nad Polska 1939 cz.1 Jagdflieger, Armagedon). The last update is the following:
1.9.39:
Pilot?, P.24 probable (?), Warsaw, ~17.30
5.9.39:
Pilot?, P.24, Zakroczym, ~13.30
Pilot?, P.24, Truskaw, ~13.30
6.9.39:
Olt. Ehle P.24, Warsaw, 5.15
7.9.39:
?Lt.Spiess?, P.37, Radzymin, ~16.05
Olt.Mölders, P.37, Radzymin, ~16.10
Olt.Ehle, P.37, Radzymin, 16.10


The first victory is my own speculation. On the 5.9. the unit fought with Polish 112 eskadra. The last lost 2 planes, a third forcelanded.
I hoped the Russian archives could reveal more details (?).

Best wishes,
Marius

Re: I./ZG 1 claims in 1939 - 1940 - any info?
 

Thanks for answer!

I found this info on one of forums... Didnt knew the sources...

Are those cliams the all that I./ZG 1 claimed in Poland?

Re: I./ZG 1 claims in 1939 - 1940 - any info?
 

At all 7 claims, of them 6 confirmed (?).
We have few documents here in Germany regarding I./ZG 1. I hope the Russian archives contain some "captured German papers".

Marius

Re: I./ZG 1 claims in 1939 - 1940 - any info?
 

Unfortunatly, I have no access to "secret german documents"...

Re: I./ZG 1 claims in 1939 - 1940 - any info?
 

Denmark - 09.04.40
Vaerløse (airfield outside Copenhagen), Lieutenant V.Gotfredsen (pilot) and 2nd Lieutenant G.F.Brodersen (observer), Fokker C.V. M/33 'R.49', appr. 5.20 a.m. (local time). A/C attacked during take off.

According to Tony Wood's Combat Claims & Casualties List, the German pilot credited with this claim is Hptm. Wolfgang Falck, Stab I.ZG 76.

Since this is the only Danish loss, it would be the only claim.

Mikkel Plannthin

Re: I./ZG 1 claims in 1939 - 1940 - any info?
 

THX.

Do You mean this claim?

09.04.40 Hptm. Wolfgang Falck: 7 Stab I.ZG 1 Fokker  Vaerlöse (Dänemark) 06.38 Refer: Williams re. Perry

And according this site http://www.ww2.dk/air/zerstorer/zg1.htm, following Falck's claims must be with I./ZG 1 too?

10.01.40 Hptm. Wolfgang Falck: 5 Stab I./ZG 1 Blenheim  Nordsee: Pl.Qu. 565 12.57 Refer: Williams re. Perry
17.02.40 Hptm. Wolfgang Falck: 6 Stab I./ZG 1 Blenheim  Nordsee: Pl.Qu. Ida-Dora 16.10 Refer: Williams re. Perry

Also, I know only about one additional claim on this period of I./ZG 1:

15.04.40 Uffz. Helmut Eberlein: - 3./ZG 1 Hudson  W. Skaggerrak 15.50 Refer: Prien/Bock re. Perry

And... What about Werner Streibs claim - Blenheim on 10 may 1940? Any info & confirmation?

With Best wishes, Eugen.

Re: I./ZG 1 claims in 1939 - 1940 - any info?
 

Yes, I mean the first claim you mention. That is the only claim of a Danish aircraft at the time of the german occupation on 9 April 1940.

For further info on the airwar over Denmark, I would refer to http://www.flensted.eu.com/

Mikkel

Re: I./ZG 1 claims in 1939 - 1940 - any info?
 

Eugene or Evgeniy?
Just a word of caution with the early claims of ZG1. Documents were lost and it is not possible to verify the data. For example, both Polish losses on 5 September could have been due to collision but there are losses on 4 September that may possibly be attributed to ZG1.

Re: I./ZG 1 claims in 1939 - 1940 - any info?
 

:) Evgeniy is more correct :) But never mind :)

2 Marius & Franek Grabowski- Thanks for info about Polish claims!

When its clear, I'am now more interested in 1940 claims of Gruppe.

For example, claims over Holland, claims over Dunkirk (i know, Tratt had 3 there - any more?)...

2 Mikkel Plannthin
I found interesting moment on this site:
From memoryes of Wolfgang Falck - . Turning toward the northwest, I head for Aalborg where my unit should be waiting. On the way, I see one of my Bf 110's that has force-landed in a meadow. Banking around, I can see the pilot standing on the wing surrounded by a mob of Danish soldiers- "A bad situation! What do I do?". I decided to take a chance and land, as I taxi over to the downed aircraft, there is no overt hostility from the Danish troops. The pilot explains that he was hit by ground fire and had been treated very well by the Danes who were under the command of a young captain to whom he introduces me. The pilot has already been in touch with Aalborg, which was in our hands after a paratroop drop of only a platoon. Aaiborg was already sending a replacement engine. I thanked the Danish captain for the treatment of my pilot, got back in my aircraft and continued on to Aalborg.

Bf 110 landed at Skejby Mark near Aarhus 9/4 1940. The aircraft belonged to I./ ZG 1 and was coded 2N+H?. At 08:45 hours the Bf 110 made a normal landing at Skejby Mark due to engine problems. Sources: Helme, CP, JJ.

http://www.flensted.eu.com/german1940/400409skejby.jpg (Via Herluf Rasmussen)

Am I right?

Re: I./ZG 1 claims in 1939 - 1940 - any info?
 

Eugen,

This is not true. Some documents are lost, other documents are safe. According to survived documents the collision on the 5th mentioned by Franek could have happened, but only during the aerial fighting of 112 eskadra with another German formation. It was reported by a Polish pilot long after the campaign`s end and has no confirmation in any other document. However this "maybe collision" has nothing to do with the mission flown by I./ZG 1.

And I don`t know anything about further Polish losses you could attribute to I./ZG 1 on the 4th September (up to the mentioned P.23 in Naklo area).

Regards,
Marius

Re: I./ZG 1 claims in 1939 - 1940 - any info?
 

Privet Evgeniy
Now you may see by yourself. There are no documents, this causing some claims speculative, but there are documents making them not speculative. ;)
Be careful with those data and take them with a grain of salt.
Regarding combat of 5 September - there is an account of an airman who took part in the battle and who was killed in 1941, so the account could not have been written long after the events. More, in the account the one may find a suggestion, that one of the fallen pilots may have been hit by enemy (it was considered to be more 'honorary' to be killed by enemy and not by an ordinary collision), but otherwise it is extremelly clear that the cause was a collision.
Concerning other possible kills of ZG1, kpt. pil. Leśniewski is one distinctive possibility, shot down by Me 110s on 4 September, some other aircraft being shot up. I have scans of original 1939 documents.
History is not one sided.
I am sending a note to moderators to have a closer look on the thread.

Re: I./ZG 1 claims in 1939 - 1940 - any info?
 

We had an unproductive discussion with Franek before a long time concerning the Polish unit III/4 and the German opponent I./ZG 1. It seems it brought completely nothing.:)


In fact nothing is clear. "An account of an airman"... Just one simple question to Franek: What is the name of this airman?

By the way, this "maybe-collision" is completely uninteresting concerning the victories of I./ZG 1. Por. Okrzeja of the 112 eskadra was one of the fallen pilots, but he fought with Do 17`s of I./KG 2.

Kpt.Rolski seems to be the only one who wrote about a "Bf 110" on this day. In fact the pilots of III/4 saw no differences between a Do 17 and a Bf 110. They even didn`t know what a Bf 110 was.
For them both types - the unknown Bf 110 as well as the Do 17 - were just Do 17`s (look to the 2th September 1939 fightings were all Bf 110`s of ZG 1 were described as Do 17`s).
The so called "Bf 110" on the 4th were just Bf 109`s of I.(J)/LG 2. The German unit claimed 3 victories. The "Bf 110" stated by Rolski was just a mistake. German records so far do not confirm that I./ZG 1 flew this sortie.

You mean Polish documents. I think this is a very important difference. But regarding the participating German aircraft types these documents are
(almost) useless.

A very good idea! The last time your fellowman Mirek was starting with furious personal attacks. I hope you make it better Franek.

Best wishes,
Marius

Re: I./ZG 1 claims in 1939 - 1940 - any info?
 

Gentlemen, this is an interesting discussion, I hope we can keep it civilized.

Re: I./ZG 1 claims in 1939 - 1940 - any info?
 

Heya!

Why are you so agressive? Take it easy :)

Yep, there is a lot of missindefication during early war :) For example Bf110 from 4./SKG 210, shot down by Kapitan Kruglov from 124 IAP, was identificated as Do 215 :)

Its all clear over Poland & Denmark. Lets talk about Wesern claims of Gruppe - Dunkirk, Holland...

Re: I./ZG 1 claims in 1939 - 1940 - any info?
 

Eugen,

the problem is the following: there exist no work describing the whole air war or Luftwaffe activities over France and the low countries in 1940. Regarding the Bf 110 we have the book Zerstörer written by John Vasco. But it is clear, still many details are not known so far and even more questions remain unanswered.

The Luftwaffe in Poland 1939 was the same problem until I started my investigation some more than 15 years ago. I hope someone will make it similar about the French campaign.

Franek wrote about important scans of documents. I am very interested. Please give Franek the possibility to present these documents here on the forum. I think we can discuss them more or less all together.
I am also interested in the action of Bf 110 over France. I hope someone can present us some unknown details.

And Eugen, who is aggressive here?

Best wishes,
Marius

Re: I./ZG 1 claims in 1939 - 1940 - any info?
 

Evgeniy, simply the war is not over for some people. ;)

Ruy, I will do all my best.

I can hardly call it unproductive but indeed for some it brought completely nothing.
Łapkowski, commander of a section in the very combat.
Those were the only losses of Brygada Pościgowa, apart of few damaged aircraft.
Your whole comments have nothing to the reality. I have scans of original diary of the unit and there is no single mention of Me 110 apart of later comments, apparently added by Rolski at Salon. Initially Leśniewski 'was downed by Do-17s' and then later confirmed to be Me 110s. Apparently I.(J)/LG2 took part in the earlier combat and actually downed nothing.
Absolutelly, Polish documents filed at the time of Polish Campaign.
You will see.

Re: I./ZG 1 claims in 1939 - 1940 - any info?
 

Hi,

Okay, I read it. It seems Lapkowski couldn`t remember the mission exactly. He wrote it from his mind long after the campaign`s end. According to this Nowakowski and Okrzeja should have collided as they fought against I./KG 2. But this collision cannot be true. There were two sections of 112 eskadra. The first fought in the Wyszkow area (north-east of Warsaw) against I./KG 2 (Okrzeja,Lokuciewski,Lech,Lapkowski,Daszewski,Strz embosz), the second in the Zakroczym area (north-west of Warsaw) against IV./LG 1 with escort of I./ZG 1 (Opulski,Nowakowski,Krawczynski,Gorecki,Cichocki). Both sections fought against German formations at the same time and this could be the reason for much confusion done by Polish authors.
Kpt.Opulski wrote something very interesting about the fight of his section (Pawlak published it in "Polskie eskadry"). Also Lokuciewski of the other section saw the death of his comrade Okrzeja and described it in his memoires. Nothing about a collision.

This is not true. Look to the original document of Brygada Poscigowa for the 5th Sept., 17.00 hours:
kpr.Gorecki damaged forcelanded [I./ZG 1],
pchor.Nowakowski shot down [I./ZG 1],
por.Okrzeja shot down [I./KG 2],
st.szer.Cichocki crashlanded [I./ZG 1]
Nothing about a collision.

Also this Polish document brings a little bit confusion. But when you compare this with German records, many questions find their answers;
The document only reports about a fight between 5 P.11 and 3 Dornier Do 215 (sic!). This was surely the section of kpt.Opulski (5 pilots). The 3 Do 215 were in fact 3 Ju 87 of IV./LG 1. According to the document 1 Do 215 flew away with smoking engine. Indeed, 1 Ju 87B of IV./LG 1 was damaged and forcelanded on Polish territory.
There is nothing about the other fight between 6 P.11 and Do 17`s of I./KG 2. The reason is - I suppose - exactly the same time of both engagements. And the mission was counted as one although two sections of the unit flew in two different directions.

Could you quote some sentences? What is the date of the document?

Really? In the original combat report from 4th Sept. kpt. Rolski wrote about 3 Messerschmitt 110 which attacked a single fighter of his unit. He shot at the aircraft without any result. (IPMS, Lot. AII.15/1b-11)


We do not know the exact hour of claims reported by 1.Staffel (J)/LG 2. But many Polish pilots wrote later they fought against Bf 109`s (later combat).
Apparently the earlier combat was fought against Ju 87`s of 9./StG 2, the later against Ju 87`s of 7. and 8./StG 2 and Bf 109`s.
Polish losses were the following:
por.Pisarek damaged forcelanded [9./StG 2],
ppor.Pniak damaged forcelanded,
ppor.Kogut damaged forcelanded,
kpt.Lesniewski shot down [1.(J)/LG 2]

Regards,
Marius

Re: I./ZG 1 claims in 1939 - 1940 - any info?
 

Here claims 1.(J)/LG 2:

04.09.39 Fw. Hugo Frey: 1 1.(J)/LG 2 PZL P-24  Poczalkowo area - Refer: Prien/Bock re. Perry
04.09.39 Ltn. Klaus Quaet-Faslem: 1 1.(J)/LG 2 PZL P-24  Poczalkowo area - Refer: Prien/Bock re. Perry
04.09.39 Ofw. Hermann Guhl: 1 1.(J)/LG 2 PZL P-24  Poczalkowo area - Refer: Prien/Bock re. Perry

Re: I./ZG 1 claims in 1939 - 1940 - any info?
 

One correction:

Lt.Quaet-Faslems victory was not confirmed.

I worked on this Poland victory list together with Mr. Bock.

Regards,
Marius

Re: I./ZG 1 claims in 1939 - 1940 - any info?
 

Evgeniy, no time, which is crucial in this case. There were two separate combats over the exact place but within one hour.

What is long after and why your statements are so definite?
Now, could you state original sources for those statements (neither is from the Polish Campaign)? Could you explain the difference between older source (Pawlak 1991) and newer (Cynk 2000)? The latter states that the sections were Okrzeja, Łokuciewski, Nowakowski and Łapkowski, Górecki, Gallus? How about statement of Łaszkiewicz, who noted Okrzeja was hit by own A.A.?
This exactly confirms my words. Two aircraft were destroyed and few more damaged. The document filed almost at the time of combat cannot be entirely reliable when discussing the cause and it would be ridiculous to draw conclusions from a single piece of paper. There are also other statements and documents, which should not be disregarded.
This is just ridiculous - there are Polish documents that clearly state it was 111 Eskadra which fought against Ju 87s at the very same time.
The diary says clearly that Dyon 'attacked over the airfield enemy bomber raid consisting about 30 aircraft - Dorniers and Ju 87s - returning from a bombing.'
It also states: 'Kpt. Leśniewski downed "Ju 87", but attacked by few, defended himself for a long time, and was shot down.' A comment 'M.110' was added later, probably at Salon by Rolski. Similar additions appear in other documents and a different ink is clearly visible.
I cannot find this particular report, but as noted above, corrections were added to several documents and this could be the case.
Who is the many? I recall only Skalski. In the reports I have, there is no single mention of any Messerschmitt, be it 109 or 110. Also, no Polish document link any loss with any particular German unit.
Do I have to repeat ad nauseam that Pniak in his report dated 4.09.1939 clearly states that he fought against twin engined aircraft and that this is in agreement with a report of Rolski filed in Salon one and a half month later? Also it looks diary of the unit states it was Do 17 and only later someone corrected the entry to Ju 87.
Finally, it was you, who excluded possibility of joint Me 109/Me 110 escort, which leads to the clear conclusion.

I am afraid that further discussion leads nowhere. You have not seen a single Polish document, not to mention any knowledge about what has survived. Instead you deny any information included there, based on outdated books. When I wrote a comment to your article on III/4 Dyon, based on documents and not books, and giving reference to every single original document, your only comment was - it is worthless. How one can argue with you?

Re: I./ZG 1 claims in 1939 - 1940 - any info?
 

Hmmmm.....

All is hard...

It seems that there just not enough information about actions of Gruppe in Poland in 1939...

Same thing as claims and losses of Erpr.Gr.210 over England... I know only 4 claims of this unit, but there MUST be more: for example Eduard Tratt added 10 claims to his score during BoB:http://www.luftwaffe.cz/tratt.html

Thats all I could find ErprobungsGruppe 210 claims, from Tony Woods lists:

27.07.40 Ltn. Horst Marx: 1 3./ErprGr. 210 Hurricane  über See vor Dover - OKL+JFV d.Dt.Lw. 4/I-1
11.08.40 Fw. Otto Rückert: 1 3./ErprGr. 210 Spitfire  - - OKL+JFV d.Dt.Lw. 4/I-2
11.08.40 Oblt. Heinz Schoenfeldt: 1 3./ErprGr. 210 Spitfire  - - OKL+JFV d.Dt.Lw. 4/I-3
12.08.40 Ltn. Horst Marx: 2 3./ErprGr. 210 Hurricane  - - OKL+JFV d.Dt.Lw. 4/I-4

Seems I have more info about Gruppe actions during 1941 (as I./SKG 210), Battle of Kharkow in may 1942, Battle of Stalingrad in late 1942, "sitzcrieg" in early 1943, Battle of Kursk in july 1943 - then about actions in 1939 - 1940...

This is sad...

Re: I./ZG 1 claims in 1939 - 1940 - any info?
 

Privet Evgeniy
You are absolutelly correct, there are serious gaps in documents, that possibly will never be filled. Frankly, I do not understand, why to prove otherwise.

Re: I./ZG 1 claims in 1939 - 1940 - any info?
 

Hi Eugen,
Do you know of any good sites listing losses from ZG1 / SKG210, lost during Kharkov or the Battle of Kursk 1942-43. in Russia. that might be available on any Russian website?

Best Regs,
Steve.

Re: I./ZG 1 claims in 1939 - 1940 - any info?
 

Hi Steve!

List of SKG 210/ZG 1 damage/losses can be found in John Vasco's perfect book "Sting of Luftwaffe".

Now I am working on confirmation of ZG 1 claims & losses in Russian sourses. Already found something very interested, according Battle of Stalingrad late 1942, Battle of Kursk 1943.

Just check thread about Hauptmann Wilfried Herrman :)

BTW: Do You know Russian? ;)

Re: I./ZG 1 claims in 1939 - 1940 - any info?
 

Hi Eugen,
Sadly i dont speak any Russian, just wondered if you might have been able to recommend any good ZG1 / SKG210 links to other sites in Russia.

Im also aware of John Vasco's Sting of the Luftwaffe book, this being high on my wanted list! Im currentley trying to locate one.

Best regards for now,
Steve.

Re: I./ZG 1 claims in 1939 - 1940 - any info?
 

On the 5th Sept.:
3./KG 2 shot down Okrzeja at appr. 13.30 hours at Wyszkow. You surely know where his graveyard is (Kregi Stare at Wyszkow).
IV./LG 1 flew a sortie between 12.31-14.10 with escort of I./ZG 1. Kpt.Opulski`s account agrees completely with German records and with the document of Pursuit Brigade. Therefore I accept it as the best of all memories written by Polish pilots about this particular mission. It doesn`t matter that it was published in older Pawlak`s book.
According to IPMS, Lot.AII.11/1d-11 the III dyon had one engagement with the enemy. The document does not differe both engagements, but surely means that only one unit - the 112th eskadra - fought against the enemy (as described in the document).
There is nothing about the 111 eskadra. Sorry for that.

I could write many pages about mistakes and manipulations done by Mr. Cynk. But the fact that in his ignorance he decided to disregard German records completely as some Polish publishers tried to build up an outstanding work (for the first time ever) shows us the way this autor works. The only useful things in his book "Polskie lotnictwo mysliwskie..." are the original Polish documents.

A hit by own A.A. is not a collision, right?





Please quote these documents. I hope you will find them.

Please quote these documents. I hope you will find them also.





IPMS, Lot.AII.15/1b-11. You better should find it and not just ignore it.


For sure Skalski and Rolski. But that`s not the point. At the end you will find Do 17`s, Ju 87`s, Me 109`s and Me 110`s. Maybe you will even find some Me 262`s.:rolleyes:


Pniak repoprted "two engined aircraft" from a distance of appr. 2 000 meters and before he ever started! He then fought against these aircraft and was credited with a ... Ju 87! So he claimed a two engined Ju 87.:D
Nonetheless I never heard about sections of 3 attacking Bf 110`s. These only could be sections of Ju 87`s.

No German record is stating about fightings between I./ZG 1 and Polish fighters on this day. Even Prof.Trenel who had masses of German documents during the war wrote about 3 PZL shot down and 2 forced to land. This agrees with survived German records. 3 PZL claims by 1.(J)/LG 2 and 2 force landings claimed by III./StG 2.

One correction for your archive:
Earlier combat 8. and 9./StG 2, later combat 7./StG 2 and I.(J)/LG 2.

Joint formations of Me 109/Me 110 did not fly any single mission for one bomber formation (strenght 9 - 30 aircraft) in Poland 1939. I am very sorry that you do not know that.

Marius

Re: I./ZG 1 claims in 1939 - 1940 - any info?
 

Hi all, many thanks for help!

Another claims over Holland...

One of Blenheims was shot down by Oblt. Werner Streib... But all other?

Any more?

Re: I./ZG 1 claims in 1939 - 1940 - any info?
 

Hi Steve!

http://www.powells.com/biblio?isbn=0764313053

http://www.addall.com/detail/0764313053.html

http://www.naval-military-press.com/...books/4918.htm

http://www.amazon.ca/Sting-Luftwaffe...e=UTF8&s=books

http://books.stonebooks.com/cgi-bin/...edback?1000747

Hope this wil helps You :)

Unfortunatly I cannot by it...

Re: I./ZG 1 claims in 1939 - 1940 - any info?
 

Hi,

I have following serials of lost Blenheims from 600 RAF on the 1o.05.40:
- L1335
- L1401
- L1514
- L1515
- L6612
Could someone confirm them? At which time this action took place? Around midday?
I have also a Blenheim L1517 from 604 RAF as lost to the fighters on the 10.05.40. Perhaps someone has here more details?

Regards

Robert

Re: I./ZG 1 claims in 1939 - 1940 - any info?
 

Great, Robert! Thank You very mutch!

We will find it together, I beleive...

Are there in Web aviable sourse about airwar over Holland? Or some books?

Re: I./ZG 1 claims in 1939 - 1940 - any info?
 

Hi,

another I/ZG1 kill is Fokker T-V from BomVA No.855 shot down over North Sea at 06... in the morning. Also Fokker D-XXI No. 2-1 JAVA no.216 was shot down by Bf110 some time earlier (05...) and crashed near to Den Deyl.
On the 11.05.40 Bf110s shot down another T-V from BomVA No.850 and two D-XXI, this time from 2-2 JAVA, no.229 (c/l) and 213.

Regards

Robert

Re: I./ZG 1 claims in 1939 - 1940 - any info?
 

There are several books on the air war over Holland, they are however in Dutch, which might pose a problem. Also most of them are out of print and not easy to find.

The author Ab A. Jansen wrote most of the titles you are after.

Fliegerhorst Schiphol, Wespennest Leeuwarden en Sporen aan de Hemel. Also Nooit was het Stil, records much of the fighting over the Netherlands. These (multi volume) books together would give you a pretty good history on the air fighting over my native country.

EDIT: for the fighting prior and during the 1940 invasion, Luchtverdediging and Illusies en Incidenten are a must.

Re: I./ZG 1 claims in 1939 - 1940 - any info?
 

Robert: incredible info, but we dont know dates of I./ZG 1 claims...

But even if this could be found, is it impossible to find earlier notes of unit?

Are there alive veterans of I./ZG 1? Does they hav theyr oun memorybooks?

.... So hard there in West...

Ruy - is it possible to find it & translate it? How can anybody caould purchase even scans or copyes of those books?

With best wishes, Evgenij.

Re: I./ZG 1 claims in 1939 - 1940 - any info?
 

You reffer only to the published documents and you do not even know when they were filed. Sorry, how can you make a source's critique? Not to mention that Mr Cynk included only a fraction of available documents, simply of practical reasons.
Here you go into a personal attack on Mr Cynk, who cannot defend himself here. As yet nobody has proven him any manipulations, quite contrary to your writing. To be fair, you should add that it was you, who had to write the German part for his book. It is quite a difference if you write that Mr Cynk refused to include German data and if he refused to cooperate with you. The book of Mr Cynk is excellent and very ballanced Polish view of Polish fighter aviation in the Polish Campaign. Nothing less, nothing more.
How about a hit by A.A. resulting in collision?
Everything at a proper time. At the moment I am working on another subject and I canot retract from it. Nonetheless I may assure you I will return to this particular subject as well.
I think you ignore importance of the document, I just cannot find original copy. It is original document filed on 4.09.1939. The question is, when the note about Me 110s was added. As you noted other documents do not mention Me 110s, so it is possible it was a comment added in November 1939. Possibly even earlier, as Rolski certainly could learn about Me 110, even from pilots of Brygada Pościgowa.
Sarcasm that missed the point. It is hard to consider two being many, and it is surprising you are so easily giving faith to accounts written years later!
By whom, when and where? As far as I can decipher, original entry in the diary of the unit did mention credit for Do 17 that was later corrected (by Rolski?) to Ju 87, and the combat report filed just after the combat clearly mention two engined aircraft. I do not care, they might have been He 111s, but I am certain they were not Ju 87s.
I believe you have not heard of sections of three of Me 109s, so what?
Was not the study of Trenel written post-war for USAAF intelligence? Anyway, it is a very simple story of the Polish Campaign, and it cannot be considered definite. I know, I have read it.
If so, the second formation must have been escorted by Me 110 and this exclude participation of LG2's Me 109s - see original Pniak report.

Re: I./ZG 1 claims in 1939 - 1940 - any info?
 

No, I wrote something about the book and the way the autor works. In fact its me who can not defend against personal attacks Mr. Cynk made in Polish paper Lotnictwo Wojskowe 5/2005. His article is full of lies and manipulations about my person. Such behaviour among airwar historians is scandalous. I never did such things against any autor.


Nobody spoke about a "direct cooperation". It was the "problem" of Polish publishers only to bring the data together. Mr. Cynk disregarded German records completely (sorry, almost completely - he brought in his own interpretation (sic!!) of GQM records). Without German records the book is almost worthless. This is not only my opinion, but of many Polish historians of the "younger generation".
Why? I showed one example above describing 5th Sept. and the mission flown by 112 eskadra. Next example: according to Cynk German records are confirming (?!) the loss of a He 111 of I./KG 152 shot down by 123 eskadra over Warsaw on the 5th. In fact this bomber was shot down 100 km`s away from Warsaw by Polish AA. Another example: 6 He 111`s of II./LG 1 shot down by Polish fighters in the morning of 1th Sept. Pretendendly confirmed by German documents (sic!?). But in fact such documents do not exist. The existing documents are confirming the loss of 1 He 111 + 1 He 111 belly landed (sic!). As well in GQM records, known to Mr. Cynk (sic!).

2 engined aircraft at a height of appr. 2000 m. Pniak saw 7 airplanes from the ground, before he started. After he started there appears nothing more about 2 engined aircraft. But 3 (!!) aircraft "of the same type" attacked him. IPMS, Lot.AII.15/1c-15 (also Cynk "Polskie lotnictwo mysliwskie..., page 242).
From the beginning of the war German Bf 109`s and Bf 110`s flew in sections of 2 (Rotte). This is not a secret. You can find this information in my book Jagdflieger (appendixes, experiences of German units).
As I wrote earlier Polish combat reports are useless regarding particular German aircraft types. German records are not confirming what you would like to have.

Only Pniak`s combat report, right?


It`s only your stubbornness. Even in original Polish documents you will find 3 P.11 only which participated in the earlier combat against Ju 87`s. Por. Pisarek had then to forceland his badly damaged aircraft and exactly this is described in the records of III./StG 2. In the latter combat 13 PZL took part and it is logical that I./LG 2 only then could have claimed 3 of them.

I don`t believe it. You often are referring to Polish documents which in fact do not exist. So I repeat my request: please show me the document confirming the fight of 111 eskadra in the midday of 5th Sept.

Cheers.
Marius

Re: I./ZG 1 claims in 1939 - 1940 - any info?
 

Robert,

This is what I have at present:

600 Squadron, Manston Attack on Waalhaven airfield:

Blenheim IF L1335. Shot down by Bf110s of I./ZG1 12.05 p.m. S/L J. M. Wells, Cpl B. A. Kidd killed. Sgt. Davis captured. Aircraft BQ*R lost.

Blenheim IF L1401. Shot down by Bf110s of I./ZG1 12.05 p.m. P/O R. W. H. Echlin killed. F/O J. H. C. Rowe captured. Aircraft BQ*K lost.

Blenheim IF L1514. Shot down by Bf110s of I./ZG1 12.05 p.m. F/O C. R Moore, Cpl. L. D. Isaacs killed. Aircraft BQ*W lost.

Blenheim IF L1515. Shot down by Bf110s of I./ZG1 12.05 p.m. P/O M. H. Anderson, LAC H. C. W. Hawkins killed. Aircraft BQ*L lost.

Blenheim IF. Crashlanded in Holland damaged by Bf110s of I./ZG1 12.05 p.m. P/O R. C. Haine, P/O M. Kramer unhurt. Aircraft BQ*N lost.
These aircraft were all fitted with IFF, and the prospect of the device falling into enemy hands caused much concern at HQ Fighter Command.

Blenheim IF. Returned damaged by Bf110s of I./ZG1 12.05 p.m. F/O T. N. Hayes, Cpl. G. H. Holmes unhurt. Aircraft BQ*O damaged.

604 Squadron, Northolt Escort for No.110 Sqdn to Waalhaven:

Blenheim IF L1517. Forced-landed on beach at Scheveningen 5.30 p.m.

If anyone can add anything to this I would be grateful.

Re: I./ZG 1 claims in 1939 - 1940 - any info?
 

Thnk You very mutch, Peter!!!!

I can add only a little info about combat with Blenheims on 10th May, that I know:

And this:

Is it possible to find names of other I./ZG 1 pilots???? IMHO one of them was Ehle (he had 3 daylight victroryes with I./ZG 1, untill he was transferred in I./NJG 1, and I know only about 2 of his victoryes)

With best wishes, Evgenij.

Re: I./ZG 1 claims in 1939 - 1940 - any info?
 

When a thread has developed into an argument between two members, I must ask those two members to conduct the argument in private or at least change the tone of said argument so it can continue as a civilized discussion.

Please take note of my second request.

Re: I./ZG 1 claims in 1939 - 1940 - any info?
 

Hello all,

On 10 May 40 because of the heavy Ju 52 transport movements near Waalhaven/Rotterdam 600 Squadron detailed 6 Blenheims IF to this target. At low level the airfield was attacked and one Ju 52 of KGr zbV 172 was set on fire.

At the very same time a formation of Ju 52s headed for Waalhaven. These were escorte by Me 110's of 2. and 3./ZG 1. Very heavy dogfights started - only one Blenheim (piloted by F/O Hayes) managed to escape and return. The others were shot down by the Me110's.

The claims were made by:
Oblt Werner Streib 1
Fw Paul Gildner 1
Uffz Müller 2
Oblt Möller 1

Other sources also mention Leutnant Knacke with one claim - he flew in the Schwarm of Streib, Gildner and Müller.

Regards
Rob