№100 victory of Lt. Emil Lang - question
 

Greetings gentlemen!

I have a question:

According to Prien, Jochen; Stemmer, Gerhard; Rodeike, Peter; Bock, Winfried (2012). Die Jagdfliegerverbände der Deutschen Luftwaffe 1934 bis 1945—Teil 12/III Eutin, Germany: Buchverlag Rogge. ISBN 978-3-942943-07-9., Lt. Lang had his 100th victory on 2 November 1943 - Yak-9 at 15:18, east-southeast of Lyutezh, #7 on that day.

According to Matthews, Andrew Johannes; Foreman, John (2015). Luftwaffe Aces — Biographies and Victory Claims — Volume 2 G–L. Walton on Thames: Red Kite. ISBN 978-1-906592-19-6., Lt. Lang had his 100th victory on 3 November 1943, during his 1st combat mission (~11:00 - 12:00 local time).

According to Norbert Hannig, John Weal (2004).Luftwaffe Fighter Ace: From the Eastern Front to the Defence of the Homeland. Grub Street, ISBN 1904010946, Lt. Lang had his 100th victory on 4 November 1943, during his 4th combat mission (~16:00 - 17:00 local time). He states, that Lang said several times that "he is less several victories before 100", and finally get it on 4th flight. Is it a question of denied/unconfirmed state of some of his previous claims?

Hannig's book have many errors and mistakes (as many memoir books), so it must be 3rd, not 4th November. But what about Dr. Prien's statement about Lang's 100 on 2 November? Is it known, that this video is 100% captured on 3 nov., not 2 nov.?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OD0fyHgAZhI

I am puzzled.

Re: №100 victory of Lt. Emil Lang - question
 

Hi

Speaking on behalf of Foreman/Mathews, I could only find seventeen claims for Lang's best day, and 170 overall not 173 on the mikrofilms, there is also a sub mikrofilm that has all claims by individual pilot, but this is only surviving in alphabet Kr-Le(by memory) and this backs-up my findings in the daily mikrofilm sheets.
The Hannig book you mention I have read, and cannot match anything really about with 3rd November 1943.
Prien's work is usually faultless(except II./JG 2 in Africa, which is entirely incorrect) we match 99.9% of the time. However he does add in other claims not on the mikrofilms with little evidence, hence he has probably added in a couple that I would not consider confirmed.
We did on TOCH discuss Lang's "overclaiming", this I calculated was over a relatively short period within 5./JG 54 from October until November 1943, aided by one Reinhold Hoffmann, can't say that Hannig was involved. Hoffmann himself claiming eight on 3rd November 1943, seven on 21st October 1943 to Lang's twelve, and eight on 22nd October 1943 to Lang's nine. There must have been other "helpers" to a lessor degree. Actually when flying with Alfred Gross Lang's claims return to a less outrageous pattern!
Actually I have noticed a pattern that significant numbers i.e "100", "150" ,"200", and "250" are usually reached on "big days" by top pilots, especially those less than honest at time, but if Hans-Joachim Marseille is anything to go by, then huge days can be done honestly.

Kind Regards

Johannes

Re: №100 victory of Lt. Emil Lang - question
 

Johannes, thx for reply.
Microfilms list Lang's claim on 4 November, but it runs in the line betwee Lang's claims on one mission on 3 November. Also, there was extremly bad weather (almost nil combat missions by VVS and LW both) on 4 November, so I consider this claim as one of 3 November, making day score to 18.

As for overclaiming, for 5./, 6./ and 12./JG54 over Kiev, only 9 of 33 victories are confirmed by soviet losses. Details will be in my article.

Question is, when Lang actually reached his 100?

P.S. #"250" of Kittel is 100% confirmed soviet loss.

Re: №100 victory of Lt. Emil Lang - question
 

Evgeny,

I’ve been comparing the various sources including Priens JFV, and Foreman/Matthews work and to understand the differences, you need to look at how each was determined.

As Johannes stated in his earlier post, for the Foreman/Matthews work, Johannes has counted only the claims that are supported in the claims files and/or original documentation as being “Confirmed”. Thus, his count of 100 on 3rd November 1943 is the 100th claim that can be identified in original documentation as being “officially confirmed”.

For the Dr Prien’s JFV team, I believe they have tried to fill in the gaps in between known claim/dates, wherever possible. Prior to the release to the general public of the claims files in the late 1990s early 2000s (and posting ot T Woods files), we tended to mostly rely on unit diaries / personal diaries / wartime media reports etc. for individual pilots scores which would generally only detail claim totals in the following circumstances.

- Achieving milestones (i.e. 20, 50, 100 etc)
- Notable feats of achievements (18 in 1 day)
- At time of receiving decorations (119 for RK)
- Transfer in or out of units
- Media/Reports on experts being KIA / MIA

In the case of Lang, I do not have direct proof of the date of his 100th victory, however in Obermeier’s Ritterkreuztrager (which was published in 1966) he states Lang received his RK at 119 Luftsiegen, which matches Priens numbering. Thus, looking at that numbering, it’s highly likely that Lang celebrated his 100th on 2nd November 1943.

However, if you look at all of Lang’s claims in the JFV series you will note that Claims 22-25 are missing, which the JFV team attribute to having occurred around 27 Sept 1943 (no details). If you take these four claims out of Prien’s list then the number 100 matches Johannes 100th confirmed claim (and 115 for the RK not 119).

There are 2 possibilities on how this occurred, either the 4 claims in question are missing from the files and yet to be found or they were not confirmed thus not included. As 6./JG 54 data seems mostly complete the second is the most likely in this circumstance.

How this can occur comes down to the claims process and the fact that it could take many months, even years for a claim to receive official confirmation. In fact, due to the backlog of claims many 1942 and 1943 claims were not processed until late 1944. Therefore, once a pilot made a claim and it was accepted at unit level then forwarded to the relevant authority for confirmation, the pilot/unit would add the claim to his score. So, in November 1943, few, if any, of Lang’s 100 claims to that date would have been officially confirmed and Lang would have been celebrating what he thought was his 100th victory on 2nd November but could have possibly been his 96th confirmed victory with the other four eventually not being confirmed. This is not an unusual event – as similar issues happened with Philipp and Dickfield 100th claim amongst others.

PS Prien’s JFV team also counted the 4th November claim in the Matthews/Foreman list and T Woods list as being on 3rd November to give 18 on that day.


Regards,

Craig…

Re: №100 victory of Lt. Emil Lang - question
 

Thank You gentlemen!

Still I am curious. 2nd or 3rd?

Here is a frontpage, and in lower right angle there is a description, wich state that there was 18 abschusse in one day and #100 abschusse among them!

https://s15.postimg.cc/vd8aip4i3/3_1...1_jan_1944.jpg

Re: №100 victory of Lt. Emil Lang - question
 

Evgeny,

What you have just supplied doesn't look good for my argument for what I believed happened.

Only other suggestion I can make is to find the unit diary or from a higher command (if they still exists) as surely they would record the 2 notable events (Lang's 100th and 18 in a day) and whether they were on the same day or not.

Regards,

Craig...

Re: №100 victory of Lt. Emil Lang - question
 

On the video, Lang and Hoffmann
congratulate each other with 100 (Lang) and 50 (Hoffmann). If Lang had
his 100 on evening 2.11.43, then Hoffmann must have his 50 on the same
day. But he also got his 50 on 3.11.43.

Here, same mission:

03.11.43 Fw. Reinhold Hoffmann 5./JG 54 Yak-9 £ W. Valki: at 2.000
m. 14.38 Film C. 2035/I Anerk: Nr. 921
03.11.43 Ltn. Emil Lang 5./JG 54 Yak-9 £ E. Gostomel: at 1.000
m. 14.45 Film C. 2035/I Anerk: Nr. 922
03.11.43 Ltn. Emil Lang 5./JG 54 Yak-9 £ W. Vyshgorod: 1.500 m. [N.
Kiev] 14.46 Film C. 2035/I Anerk: Nr. 924
03.11.43 Ltn. Emil Lang 5./JG 54 Il-2 £ E. Gostomel: at 1.000
m. 14.48 Film C. 2035/I Anerk: Nr. 925
03.11.43 Ltn. Emil Lang 5./JG 54 Il-2 £ V. Mostischtsche: 1.200
m. 14.49 Film C. 2035/I Anerk: Nr. 927
03.11.43 Fw. Reinhold Hoffmann 5./JG 54 Yak-9 £ S.E. Lyutezh: 2.500
m. 14.49 Film C. 2035/I Anerk: Nr. 926

https://s8.postimg.cc/fc7m2tizp/image.jpg

I think, that some of Lang's claims were denied, so he could achieve
his 100 on evening 3.11.

That is why he so hurried to got his 100, so he made extraordinary
overclaim on morning 3.11. - he got 7 (seven) fake claims N from
Lutezh!

Re: №100 victory of Lt. Emil Lang - question
 

You know it always struck me strange that with Rudorffer/Tangermann it would always be a ratio of two for the leader i.e Lang and Rudorffer, and one for their second i.e Hoffmann and Tangermann, I hope it's just coincidence not a rule, for if it is a rule then there must have been some kind of club involved. I have concluded over the years that this practise was localised, and when a "overclaimer" transfers somewhere else....a honest Geschwader than the practise ends, and his claims almost stop.

Kind Regards

Johannes

Re: №100 victory of Lt. Emil Lang - question
 

This mission:
03.11.43 Fw. Reinhold Hoffmann 5./JG 54 Il-2 £ E. Glebovka: at 300 m. 11.15
03.11.43 Obgefr. Manfred Peschke 5./JG 54 Il-2 £ N.E. Glebovka: at 250 m. 11.16
03.11.43 Ltn. Emil Lang 5./JG 54 Il-2 £ N.E. Lyutezh: 1.000 m. [N. Kiev] 11.31
03.11.43 Ltn. Emil Lang 5./JG 54 Il-2 £ N.N.E. Lyutezh: 200 m. [N. Kiev] 11.32
03.11.43 Ltn. Emil Lang 5./JG 54 Il-2 £ N.E. Kasarovichi: 100 m. 11.33
03.11.43 Ltn. Emil Lang 5./JG 54 Yak-7 £ N.E. Kasarovichi: 50 m. 11.35
03.11.43 Ltn. Emil Lang 5./JG 54 Il-2 £ N.W. Glebovka: at 100 m. 11.36
03.11.43 Ltn. Emil Lang 5./JG 54 Yak-7 £ E.N.E. Glebovka: at 100 m. 11.40
03.11.43 Ltn. Emil Lang 5./JG 54 Yak-7 £ E.N.E. Glebovka: at 50 m. 11.42

Is whole fake claims mission. No even one Il-2 (with escort) ever appeared over that sector at that day.

Re: №100 victory of Lt. Emil Lang - question
 

Hi,

very interesting post,

checking the claims:

5./JG 54

Reinhold Hoffmann claimed 8 at least 1 was fake
Emil Lang 17 at least 7 were fake
Manfred Peschke 1 so this only was fake

Alfred Gross 1
Friedrich Zander 2

6./JG 54
Albin Wolf 2

12./JG 54
Herbert Aloe 1
Helmut Grollmus 1
Karl-Heinz Luchau 1

just a look into claims and losses, seems the other pilots try to made more reliable claims...

with the info of Evgeny Velichko 33 vs 9, you have more info of the 9 losses to link with claims?

PD

in Nick Hector info:

256 IAD. Only two Yak-7s damaged and forced to belly-land during the whole day for 5 claims...

regards

Re: №100 victory of Lt. Emil Lang - question
 

Yes, I have all the losses, all with details. Also, I have several damaged a/c, with details on some of them.

P.S. Soviet pilots claimed 31 a/c, with actual losses > 0 (probably 1, hungarian Ju88 could be shot not by Flak, but by patrolling fighters, wich claimed 4 Ju88 shot down on that day).

Re: №100 victory of Lt. Emil Lang - question
 

Hi!
This is 100% Luchau's victim.
https://memory-book.ua/gallery/albums/23072

Re: №100 victory of Lt. Emil Lang - question
 

Hi,

many thanks for your info,

kind regards

Re: №100 victory of Lt. Emil Lang - question
 

Claims of 5, 6 and 12./JG54 over Kiev on 3.11.43:

15 Il-2. Soviet records: 2 lost to Fw190 (crew dead), 2 damaged by Fw190/bellylanded (1 a/gunner killed)

5 La-5. Soviet records: 3 La-5 lost to Fw190, 3 damaged/bellylanded (2 pilots wounded).

15 Yak-7/9. Soviet records: 2 Yak-7 damaged/bellylanded.
Note: 1 "Yak-7" claim turned actually into La-5 real loss.

Re: №100 victory of Lt. Emil Lang - question
 

Hi Evgeny

What is your impression of the Kittel claims?, with Rudorffer I can see the connection with Kurt Tangermann, but have not been able to establish a long-term rottenflieger for Kittel.....and you can't cheat alone. Also no extraordinarily huge days for Kittel.

Kind Regards

Johannes

Re: №100 victory of Lt. Emil Lang - question
 

Hallo Johannes.
Most of Kittel claims, that I was able to check, are confirmed by Soviet losses. Including his latewar multiple claims.

Re: №100 victory of Lt. Emil Lang - question
 

Thanks for that.

Though Kittel did have many multiple days especially in 1944, they were by no means outrageously big, so actually I was thinking he was a honest guy. III./JG 54 seems honest enough, but not so sure about this units other Gruppen especially I./JG 54, likewise with JG 52 I think the 7./JG 52 and 9./JG 52 Staffel suspicious I./JG 52 seem good especially. What is your opinion on Günther Rall, he seems honest enough to me as does Friedrich Obleser.

Kind Regards

Johannes

Re: №100 victory of Lt. Emil Lang - question
 

https://warspot.ru/19852-dutyy-mirovoy-rekord

Gentlemen.

3.11.43, Lang real score.

Re: №100 victory of Lt. Emil Lang - question
 

Hi Gentleman

Hannig states in his book that Lang set out to break the record for the most in a day! Hannig's recollection is slightly off regarding the "kills", but he states that Lang pre-planned the whole day down to who would be his wingmen for each flight, yes he even pre-planned the number of sorties for the day. It rather smacks of a scam. I suspect that most of his Staffel were ignorant of his excesses including Hannig himself.

August Lambert was refused the Eichenlaub as he apparently had a staffel adjutant who didn't like him. This staffel would leave a schwarm including Lambert to flew cover for the others, and linger behind to cover their retreat. I wonder if this adjutant suspected Lambert of something dirty, trouble is the mikofilms are sketchy for Schlacht units at this precise time, so direct investigation is not possible until Lambert's claims details are uncovered.

It is now clear to us that is a pilot claims a huge number in a single day, they it's very likely they are dis-honest, even more so a huge number in a short period i.e like Lang. But not all are guilty.

Kind Regards

Johannes