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Marius 19th August 2005 09:59

German Claims in Poland 1939
 
Hi all,

in 2002 was published my book Luftwaffe over Poland 1939 Part 1 Jagdflieger (in Polish language). There are listed all Bf 109 and Bf 110 claims known to me at that time. Now 3 years after that I could make an update of them. Is somebody interested on it?

Marius

Dmitry Volodin 19th August 2005 11:54

Re: German Claims in Poland 1939
 
Hi Marius!
Bf 110 claims of I./ZG1 is terra incognita for me and names of successful pilots of I.(Z)/LG1 is unknown in several combats. Can you add something new?

Best regards
Dmitry

Larry Hickey 19th August 2005 14:57

Re: German Claims in Poland 1939
 
Marius,

I have used your book on the Polish Campaign extensively and would like to see any updates on German victory claims for that period, especially for the Bf110. There are still about four victory claims for ZG 1 that are not fully identified. I hope that you've been able to obtain these. Great job on a difficult subject. Those of us researching the Polish Campaign very much appreciate your efforts!

Look forward to hearing from you.

Larry Hickey
larry@irandpcorp.com

John Beaman 19th August 2005 17:18

Re: German Claims in Poland 1939
 
Hi Marius:

Excuse my ignorance, but how does your list differ from those of Tony Woods and Jochen Prien? Are you "adding" to those using different sources? Are you adding more information to the basic claim data?

Thanks

Laurent Rizzotti 19th August 2005 18:07

Re: German Claims in Poland 1939
 
Hi John,

Tony's lists are not covering much of Poland 1939 claims and also missing a part of those in 1940... the missig claims are those of the ZG units.

If you go to the Tony's website you will see lists made by Jim Perry that are more complete than Tony's (covering 1945 and having more full names among other things). The files are in CSV format so you can open them with Excel or Access (and probably any editor) after a little formating.

While Tony's files list official claims (coming from Lufwaffes files), Jim's are also using books to fill the blanks. A great job of his part and a great gesture to made them available on the Net.

Marius 19th August 2005 18:20

Re: German Claims in Poland 1939
 
Hi John,
I have worked on the list published in Jochen Prien`s book together with Winfried Bock (and Hans Ring). This was at the end of the nineties. After that I found some more details and additionally had analized every single aerial combat in Poland including all published Polish sources since 1947.
Some claims of Bf 110`s are not sure for 100%, but nevertheless I finished it as it could be (perhaps with some errors).

Larry,
many thanks for kindly words about my book. Many Poles do not like it, because it is free of legends and does not confirm 100 aerial victories (as stated by Cynk).

Perhaps I only could make an actual list for Bf 110 claims, because - indeed - Bf 109 claims were published in Prien`s book and as I remember there shouldn`t be many changes.

Could somebody send me the list of Tony Woods?
Thanks, Marius

Larry Hickey 19th August 2005 18:31

Re: German Claims in Poland 1939
 
Marius,

Yes, sending only changes or updates to your Bf110 claims for the Polish Campaign would be just fine. Likewise for any updates to the Bf109 claims, if any, in the Prien volumes, with which I'm well familiar. It turns out that only three of a reported six I./ZG 1 claims for the campaign have not yet been published. Do you have these? Do you also have any additional Luftwaffe claims info for units other than Bf109/110s?

Thanks for your assistance.

steve sheridan 19th August 2005 21:06

Re: German Claims in Poland 1939
 
Hi Marius,

A list of your ME110 kills or losses would indeed be very interesting, im sure.
Has you rightly say, the ME109 kills and losses have been made available to
fellow enthusiasts, via Priens excellent works on the Luftwaffe Jagdfliegerbande.
Any update on your your work would be most appreciated.

Rgs,
Steve.

Jim P. 19th August 2005 21:08

Re: German Claims in Poland 1939
 
The 110 stuff from Poland that I added to my files, if I remember correctly, were sent to me by Franek G. I think, and was largely extracted from Marius' work, as the author of the 2-vol. set on the PAF, Cynk I think his name is - it was a few years ago. That PAF history is pretty darned good piece work too.

Marius 19th August 2005 21:43

Re: German Claims in Poland 1939
 
Hi Jim,
Cynk`s book has many errors concerning the Luftwaffe details (I mean the Polish campaign). He stated about 100 destroyed German planes by Polish fighters, but after appr. 15 years of my research I actually can confirm only 40-45 (destroyed 60-100%). Cynk only operated with the GQM loss list and for example did not researched for hours of German operations or even places were the planes crashed. For example he stated about a He 111 lost in the Kutno area as a claim for 123 squadron over Warsaw (!!).

Larry,
which claims of I./ZG 1 were published?

Marius

Larry Hickey 20th August 2005 08:24

Re: German Claims in Poland 1939
 
Marius,

English language sources have cited six confirmed victories by Bf 110s of I./ZG 1 during the Polish Campaign. Three of these have been documented as: 6.9.40 Oblt. Walter Ehle 3./ZG 1 at 5:15 hrs (PZL 11); 7.9.40 Oblt. Victor Mölders at 16:10 hrs (PZL 37); and 7.9.40 Oblt. Ehle at 16:10 hrs (PZL 37). In addition, it is reported that Lt. Wilhelm Spies achieved two victories on unknown dates during the Polish Campaign, possibly with I./ZG 1, although his membership in that unit is uncertain. He may have been serving with I.(S)/LG 1 at that time, although I don't find them listed under that unit. A post on this board by Dean Wick some time ago said one of Spies' victories may have been on 17.9.39, but the accuracy of this is unknown to me. If Spies was in I./ZG 1, and he scored two victories, and the dates and circumstances of these can be documented, that leaves one unknown victory for I./ZG 1 to be documented during the Polish Campaign, if six is an accurate number for the unit's "confirmed" victories.

Your comments?

Larry Hickey 20th August 2005 08:37

Re: German Claims in Poland 1939
 
Marius,

I should have looked in the victory listing on P.207 of your history, Vol.1, as it there states that Lt. Wilhelm Spies of I./ZG 1, was awarded two victories during the Polish Campaign. However, I don't think that the details are provided within the text, nor is his Staffel identified. Do you now have that information? This summary also only accounts for five victory awards for pilots of ZG 1. Was there a six victory claim confirmed? By whom?

Thanks,

Marius 20th August 2005 18:46

Re: German Claims in Poland 1939
 
Hello Larry,
I./ZG 1 seem to make biggest problems. So here are the last news;

1.9.1939
I suppose 1 P.24 claim over Warsaw (perhaps "probably"), because Luftflotte 1 documents are speaking about 16 claims at all. I have found 15, so the ZG 1 claim could be the 16th. The Polish aircraft could be a P.11 of 113 eskadra (write off).
4.9.1939
In my book "Jagdflieger" you will find a P.43 claim, but perhaps it even wasn`t reported by the pilot. I think it was a Bf 110 of ZG 1 because of the serious damage to the Polish plane (P.23 of 42 eskadra) and the area of the encounter.
5.9.1939
About 13:30 hours escort sortie to Warsaw area for Ju 87 of IV.(St)/LG 1. I suppose 2 P.24 claims (112 eskadra lost here 2 P.11 and one more P.11 to Do 17M bombers of 3./KG 2).
The German documents are speaking about 20 claims for the day. I have found 18, so both claims could be numbers 19th and 20th.
6.9.1939
Olt.Ehle P.24 at 5:15 (111 eskadra 1 P.11 write off).
7.9.1939
3 P.37 of 16 eskadra shot down at 16:10. Olt. Ehle and Olt. Mölders, the third name unknown (Spies?).

In my book I wrote about an P.24 claim on 17.9.1939. In fact the Polish plane (P.11 of 132 eskadra) should have been fallen to a Do 17 crew of II./KG 3.

I am sure for 98% Lt. Spies was flying with I./ZG 1. If you have read Eimannsberger`s book for example, there is no trace of this pilot with I.(Z)/LG 1.
I am sure I./ZG 1 claimed 7 victories at all, but one of them probable. It is known that Bf 110 crews claimed in Poland 68 victories at all; I./ZG 76 - 31, I.(Z)/LG 1: 30, so there remain 7 for I./ZG 1.
The Gruppenkommandeur reported later about 6 victories over Poland, but I think he only meant the confirmed victories.

So, following claimes at the moment:
1.9. 1 P.24 probable
5.9. 2 P.24
6.9. 1 P.24 (Ehle)
7.9. 3 P.37 (Ehle,Mölders,Spies?)

I hope I have helped with my explanations. Perhaps someone could add more information?
I am still looking for log books of I./ZG 1. Can somebody help me?

Marius

Larry Hickey 20th August 2005 19:29

Re: German Claims in Poland 1939
 
Marius,

Thank you for the presenting the current status of your research into the claims of I./ZG 1 during the Polish Campaign. I agree that Spies almost certainly must have been flying with that unit during the PC. He certainly doesn't appear in the I.(S)/LG 1 information published by Ludwig von Eimannsberger. It seems strange that Spies' updated Knight's Cross bio in Obermeier doesn't make clear the unit he served with during the PC.

I've requested the missing information on I./ZG 1 victories during the FC on this TOCH board previously, but so far no one seems to know the answer. The history of I./ZG 1, in general, during 39-40, doesn't seem to be very well documented in surviving Luftwaffe records. I, too, would appreciate information on any logbooks from members of that unit, as well as info on any existing historical records on the unit during that period. I think John Vasco did about as good a job as was then possible telling ZG 1's history during 1940 in his Bf-110 book on the subject. There must still be more out there somewhere, however.

Larry Hickey 20th August 2005 19:54

Re: German Claims in Poland 1939
 
Marius,

One more question that I forgot to put to you in my previous post. Do you have a prospective date for the publication of Vol. 3 of your PC history series on Schlacht and Stuka units?

The updated info on Vol. 1 (fighters) in your recently published Vol. 2 (bombers), is much appreciated, along with the very helpful maps. Your lastest bomber volume is excellent, and I recommend both volumes to all interested readers of this board who can work with the Polish language. Even if you can't read Polish, the photos and data tables alone are well worth the modest price of the books.

For board readers interested in the Luftwaffe during the Polish Campaign, Marius is also doing a series of articles on that subject, beginning with September 1st, for the Polish aviation magazine "Militaria"(www.kagero.pl). The text is in Polish, the photo captions are in both English and Polish, and there is a one-paragraph summary of the article in English at the end. These articles are also excellent soures of information, and again, even if you can't read Polish, the data tables alone are worth the price of the magazine. It caused me to order a subscription, since it appears that this will be an ongoing series for many issues to come!

Thanks Marius!!!

Marius 20th August 2005 21:07

Re: German Claims in Poland 1939
 
Larry,
many thanks for your reply.
I was looking for documents in our Bundesarchiv in Freiburg for several years. I think I saw all documents about the Luftwaffe in Poland presented there. So the question is what could we find outside Germany?
As I heard before some years many documents are closed in England for 65 years (?Stuka KTB`s?). What about United States? I think there is more to find in Russia, because the Russians stealed from East German territory everything that looked similar to a book.

My third book shall come out appr. in December 2005, but it lies on the publishers possibilities. There is still a lot to translate into Polish. I am writing the books in Polish, but the personal accounts etc. and experiences of the units are translated by someone other in Poland.

Yes, I am writing for "Militaria XX wieku " magazine. But also I have written a couple of articles for "Lotnictwo Wojskowe" (now "Lotnictwo"). After my last article for Lotnictwo magazine (fighter unit III/4) there were many turbulences in Poland, because I openly wrote about some manipulations made by Polish autors and fighter pilots as well (Skalski, Pniak). Some people say I am anti polish (!?), or that I have ignored Polish sources, but it isn`t true. I think these people are very disappointed and don`t want accept German archive records, which are more reliable than Polish.

Marius

Franek Grabowski 21st August 2005 02:27

Re: German Claims in Poland 1939
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Marius
Yes, I am writing for "Militaria XX wieku " magazine. But also I have written a couple of articles for "Lotnictwo Wojskowe" (now "Lotnictwo"). After my last article for Lotnictwo magazine (fighter unit III/4) there were many turbulences in Poland, because I openly wrote about some manipulations made by Polish autors and fighter pilots as well (Skalski, Pniak). Some people say I am anti polish (!?), or that I have ignored Polish sources, but it isn`t true. I think these people are very disappointed and don`t want accept German archive records, which are more reliable than Polish.

Here we come to the key of the problem. You openly accused the late Stanisław Skalski of making a false claim after arrival to the UK and that Polish authors support this lie. You have written that, ignoring available Polish documents like actual combat reports, diary of the unit, daily reports, etc., all filed during the September 1939. Whenever Polish documents do not fit your research, you call them unreliable. For you even a German propaganda booklet has more value than Polish accounts. Actually, judging by your bibliography, Polish documents are much more complete rather than German ones, despite serious losses during evacuation.
Another important note is that it is not the 'revised' result of air combats taht causes most controversies but your comments, shortly claiming that the Polish pilots were poorly trained cowards and murderers.

Quote:

Cynk`s book has many errors concerning the Luftwaffe details (I mean the Polish campaign). He stated about 100 destroyed German planes by Polish fighters, but after appr. 15 years of my research I actually can confirm only 40-45 (destroyed 60-100%). Cynk only operated with the GQM loss list and for example did not researched for hours of German operations or even places were the planes crashed. For example he stated about a He 111 lost in the Kutno area as a claim for 123 squadron over Warsaw (!!).
Jim is reffering to the PAF history published by Schiffer, an another book. Paraphrasing your own words, the books title is: Polish fighter arm in the September battle. The German data is attached to add some background to the history of operations of the Polish fighters. Bulk of the text is an extremally detailed day by day history of operations. Extensive quotes of many documents causes the book may be used as a document source. Slightly more expensive than the Luftwaffe but a great value for money. Highly recommended.
Number of actual German losses I consider disputable. Cynk just only revised Polish claims, sorting them out, according to available documents. Several observed victories are not confirmed by the German documents despite some evidence, like the case of a bomber aircraft claimed by III/4 DM on 2 September. A parachute was observed but no losses were recorded, at least according to your research.

There is also another important and valid point for this thread. According to the period Polish documents, III/4 DM fought on 4 September with two engined aircraft. Descriptions suggest they were Me 110s and likely they scored at least one kill. Mr Emmerling did not find any involved German unit, thus suggested the Poles invented the combat with such aircraft. Sorry, it is ridiculous!

PS This discussion may look a little bit weird but it is strictly related to the article on III/4 DM and the following discussion that was published in Poland.

Marius 21st August 2005 10:36

Re: German Claims in Poland 1939
 
Franek,
in the origin combat report Skalski mentioned about one aircraft he shot at and then saw it crash on the ground. The second crash (of a second plane) was added in next report 1941 (!!). If you have found the second crash in original Polish documents from September 1939 so please tell me where you did.

German propaganda booklet isn`t more important. I used such sources only then if they agreed with original German documents, that`s all. I sorted out books with propaganda only. You know that, because I wrote about this point in my book.
Perhaps you will find more Polish documents (perhaps, have you seen German documents?), but most of them were created even years after the campaign. As you confirm original Polish documents were lost during evacuation so what are you talking about?

Next point:
Where did I write that Polish pilots were poorly trained cowards and murderes? Could you give an example with page number etc. from by books?

Yes I know what book Jim is speaking about. In this book too Cynk maintains Polish fighters destroyed 100 German aircraft (Cynk does not mean "claims", but lost aircraft by the Germans - that`s a big difference!). But concerning "paraphrasing", it makes a big difference when you are writing about losses you can find in many sources (even books). Cynk couldn`t do that, because there exist no books on this topic (I mean Luftwaffe in Poland comparable to my books). I used all Polish publications since 1947. My intention was to fill the German action with known Polish details. On the other hand it wasn`t my intention to describe Polish action and then fill it with German details... If I understand you correctly, you mean that all Polish autors are liars and I should visit the Sikorski Institute to verify what they wrote?!

On 2 September a parachute was observed and that is right. The only pilot who parachuted was Ofw. Weng of Müllenheim-Rehberg`s aircraft (I./ZG 1).
There is no evidence of other German aircraft lost in this battle. Not in archives, not in personal losses, nowhere. And where are the other observerd victories and where is the evidence for that? Please give me more details.

Concerning the 4 September battle; isn`t Pniak the only one who reported something about 2-engined aircraft? Isn`t true that on 2.9. the pilots of III/4 recognized the Bf 110`s as Dornier Do 17? Isn`t true that on 4.9. they recognized the Bf 109 as Bf 110? Other pilots for example of III/2 took Ju 87 for Do 17!
Lesniewski couldn`t have claimed a Bf 110 on 4.9., because two days earlier he recognized this type as Do 17? You can be sure he would claim a Do 17 again!
Will you say Do 17 and Bf 110 were the same aircraft? I think Lesniewski saw the differences of aircraft he shot at 2.9. and 4.9. very well, but he couldn`t attach the right type, as most Polish fighter pilots at that time.
So isn`t true that Polish pilots couldn`t recognize German types?

The German documents are very reliable; they confirm that on 2.9. I./ZG 1 was engaged. And they confirm that on 4.9. I.(J)/LG 2 was involved. Will you deny these facts? And my last question: what is here ridiculous?! These are very reliable informations.

Something more to Pniak. He saw his victims crash on ground!!. The first time on 2.9. and the second time on 4.9. As I researched and wrote in my books and articles this can`t be true. I am most convinced this could be a "black sheep" in the family of fighter pilots.
Franek, you think all Polish accounts even written many years after are only facts, are you sure? You mean (for patriotic purposes?) there can`t be a black sheep in the family, but you are wrong.

Marius

Franek Grabowski 21st August 2005 14:48

Re: German Claims in Poland 1939
 
Marius

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marius
in the origin combat report Skalski mentioned about one aircraft he shot at and then saw it crash on the ground. The second crash (of a second plane) was added in next report 1941 (!!). If you have found the second crash in original Polish documents from September 1939 so please tell me where you did.

You have not seen the original report, have you? Skalski's report, written in haste, lacks a very important sentence - fate of the enemy aircraft, either it crashed or not. There are more period documents confirming that Skalski was credited with two kills, so the second kill must have been reported to crash. It is not my problem that you cannot understand that.

Quote:

German propaganda booklet isn`t more important. I used such sources only then if they agreed with original German documents, that`s all. I sorted out books with propaganda only. You know that, because I wrote about this point in my book.
I was clear - you consider German propaganda more valuable than Polish documents.

Quote:

Perhaps you will find more Polish documents (perhaps, have you seen German documents?), but most of them were created even years after the campaign. As you confirm original Polish documents were lost during evacuation so what are you talking about?
I am curious how you came to such a conclusion having not researched Polish archives? There is a number of original 1939 Polish documents and diaries, this suplemented by hundreds of reports which were written following arrival to France. There is plenty to choose.

Quote:

Next point:
Where did I write that Polish pilots were poorly trained cowards and murderes? Could you give an example with page number etc. from by books?
Have not you read your own articles and books?!

Quote:

Yes I know what book Jim is speaking about. In this book too Cynk maintains Polish fighters destroyed 100 German aircraft (Cynk does not mean "claims", but lost aircraft by the Germans - that`s a big difference!). But concerning "paraphrasing", it makes a big difference when you are writing about losses you can find in many sources (even books). Cynk couldn`t do that, because there exist no books on this topic (I mean Luftwaffe in Poland comparable to my books). I used all Polish publications since 1947. My intention was to fill the German action with known Polish details. On the other hand it wasn`t my intention to describe Polish action and then fill it with German details... If I understand you correctly, you mean that all Polish autors are liars and I should visit the Sikorski Institute to verify what they wrote?!
That is another point. You have used everything written since 1947. Actually Polish archives were practically unavailable for the Polish authors up until 1990s. How do you expect the books to be completelly reliable?

Quote:

On 2 September a parachute was observed and that is right. The only pilot who parachuted was Ofw. Weng of Müllenheim-Rehberg`s aircraft (I./ZG 1).
I asked you in vain, what is the evidence Weng ever parachuted? How can you be so sure, if in the same article you claim that you cannot verify losses of KG3?

Quote:

There is no evidence of other German aircraft lost in this battle. Not in archives, not in personal losses, nowhere. And where are the other observerd victories and where is the evidence for that? Please give me more details.
I wrote it clear. One of the airmen of the bomber aircraft was reported to bail out.

Quote:

Concerning the 4 September battle; isn`t Pniak the only one who reported something about 2-engined aircraft?
No.

Quote:

Isn`t true that on 2.9. the pilots of III/4 recognized the Bf 110`s as Dornier Do 17?
It is true - similar errors were made a year later, when Me 110 was well known.

Quote:

Isn`t true that on 4.9. they recognized the Bf 109 as Bf 110?
No. They never reported Me 110s! They are reported as Do 17s. You see, in Polish there is a clear difference between one and two.

Quote:

Other pilots for example of III/2 took Ju 87 for Do 17!
This is only your supposition.

Quote:

Lesniewski couldn`t have claimed a Bf 110 on 4.9., because two days earlier he recognized this type as Do 17? You can be sure he would claim a Do 17 again!
You know better because you have never seen any original Polish document.

Quote:

Will you say Do 17 and Bf 110 were the same aircraft? I think Lesniewski saw the differences of aircraft he shot at 2.9. and 4.9. very well, but he couldn`t attach the right type, as most Polish fighter pilots at that time.
Combat of Leśniewski was witnessed by Rolski. He identified the enemy type as a Me 110 already in France.

Quote:

So isn`t true that Polish pilots couldn`t recognize German types?
It is apparent the German pilots invented all their victories over polish fighter aircraft because they could not recognise P-11 and P-24.

Quote:

The German documents are very reliable; they confirm that on 2.9. I./ZG 1 was engaged. And they confirm that on 4.9. I.(J)/LG 2 was involved. Will you deny these facts? And my last question: what is here ridiculous?! These are very reliable informations.
If the German documents are so reliable, please tell me at what time I.(J)/LG2 claims took place? Can you exclude Leśniewski was downed by eg. I/ZG1?

Quote:

Something more to Pniak. He saw his victims crash on ground!!. The first time on 2.9. and the second time on 4.9. As I researched and wrote in my books and articles this can`t be true. I am most convinced this could be a "black sheep" in the family of fighter pilots.
There is no such quote in Pniak's report. As yet you was unable to identify the enemy of Pniak, so I am very curious how you can exclude any losses? Overclaim happens but the only deliberate false claims I am awared of were made by pilots of JG27.

Quote:

Franek, you think all Polish accounts even written many years after are only facts, are you sure? You mean (for patriotic purposes?) there can`t be a black sheep in the family, but you are wrong.
Pniak's report has been written just after the combat. The problem is that Polish documents quite often disagree with yours, so you always tend to ignore the former.

Marius 21st August 2005 18:47

Re: German Claims in Poland 1939
 
Franek,


Quote:
Originally Posted by Marius
in the origin combat report Skalski mentioned about one aircraft he shot at and then saw it crash on the ground. The second crash (of a second plane) was added in next report 1941 (!!). If you have found the second crash in original Polish documents from September 1939 so please tell me where you did

You have not seen the original report, have you? Skalski's report, written in haste, lacks a very important sentence - fate of the enemy aircraft, either it crashed or not. There are more period documents confirming that Skalski was credited with two kills, so the second kill must have been reported to crash. It is not my problem that you cannot understand that.

Pawlak published Skalski`s origin report (Samotne zalogi, page 82. Look also Lotnictwo 5/05). In the report there is only one crash of a German aircraft - certainly Bf 110 of Müllenheim-Rehberg, also attacked by Lesniewski. The other attacked aircraft flew away in formation and Skalski couldn`t chase it. Will you deny it?

Quote:
German propaganda booklet isn`t more important. I used such sources only then if they agreed with original German documents, that`s all. I sorted out books with propaganda only. You know that, because I wrote about this point in my book.
I was clear - you consider German propaganda more valuable than Polish documents.

Sorry, but I don`t understand. Why do you think this? Page number please.

Quote:
Perhaps you will find more Polish documents (perhaps, have you seen German documents?), but most of them were created even years after the campaign. As you confirm original Polish documents were lost during evacuation so what are you talking about?
I am curious how you came to such a conclusion having not researched Polish archives? There is a number of original 1939 Polish documents and diaries, this suplemented by hundreds of reports which were written following arrival to France. There is plenty to choose.

Franek, one of Skalski`s report was written in 1941 (!!), as many others too. You are writing about Polish documents written in France (earliest October/November 1939). That is right. And therefore you confirm that most of the origin Polish documents were going lost!

Quote:
Next point:
Where did I write that Polish pilots were poorly trained cowards and murderes? Could you give an example with page number etc. from by books?
Have not you read your own articles and books?!

This is not the answer to my question! Please give the page number.

Quote:
Yes I know what book Jim is speaking about. In this book too Cynk maintains Polish fighters destroyed 100 German aircraft (Cynk does not mean "claims", but lost aircraft by the Germans - that`s a big difference!). But concerning "paraphrasing", it makes a big difference when you are writing about losses you can find in many sources (even books). Cynk couldn`t do that, because there exist no books on this topic (I mean Luftwaffe in Poland comparable to my books). I used all Polish publications since 1947. My intention was to fill the German action with known Polish details. On the other hand it wasn`t my intention to describe Polish action and then fill it with German details... If I understand you correctly, you mean that all Polish autors are liars and I should visit the Sikorski Institute to verify what they wrote?!
That is another point. You have used everything written since 1947. Actually Polish archives were practically unavailable for the Polish authors up until 1990s. How do you expect the books to be completelly reliable?

So you confirm that Polish authors wrote fairy-tales? Great...
Did you find something that is contradictory to my research? Source? Document? Please give more details.

Quote:
On 2 September a parachute was observed and that is right. The only pilot who parachuted was Ofw. Weng of Müllenheim-Rehberg`s aircraft (I./ZG 1).
I asked you in vain, what is the evidence Weng ever parachuted? How can you be so sure, if in the same article you claim that you cannot verify losses of KG3?

My dear! Even the GQM records are relating about one man parachuted of I./ZG 1 (in the origin FSA what means Fallschirmabsprung - bale out). Also Hans Weng survived the war and reported later about his baling out and captivity in Poland (see for example one of the Jägerblatt issues).
I cleared my mistake with KG 3 later in my answer to J.B.Cynk. In the meanwhile I have found the archive documents of Prof.Trenel (BA/MA Freiburg), who confirms that there were no engagemnets between KG 3 and Polish fighters on 2.9.

Quote:
There is no evidence of other German aircraft lost in this battle. Not in archives, not in personal losses, nowhere. And where are the other observerd victories and where is the evidence for that? Please give me more details.
I wrote it clear. One of the airmen of the bomber aircraft was reported to bail out.

What bomber type? Who reported this? What is the name of the airman? What unit?

Quote:
Concerning the 4 September battle; isn`t Pniak the only one who reported something about 2-engined aircraft?
No.

Okay. Who else reported about two-engined aircraft? Source, page number?


Quote:
Isn`t true that on 2.9. the pilots of III/4 recognized the Bf 110`s as Dornier Do 17?
It is true - similar errors were made a year later, when Me 110 was well known.

Okay. So you mean they didn`t recognized the types of German aircraft one year later in England, but they did it already in France 1939/40 (see above)?
And so your conclusion is III/4 fouhgt on 4.9. with Bf 110 of ZG 1??

Quote:
Isn`t true that on 4.9. they recognized the Bf 109 as Bf 110?
No. They never reported Me 110s! They are reported as Do 17s. You see, in Polish there is a clear difference between one and two.

Okay. See Cynk "Polskie Lotnictwo..." page 247. Bajan`s list on 4.9.:
kpt. Lesniewski 1 Me 110.


Quote:
Other pilots for example of III/2 took Ju 87 for Do 17!
This is only your supposition.

So read about the fighting with Ju 87 on 1 and 2 September between III/2 and I./StG 2.

Quote:
Lesniewski couldn`t have claimed a Bf 110 on 4.9., because two days earlier he recognized this type as Do 17? You can be sure he would claim a Do 17 again!
You know better because you have never seen any original Polish document.

Okay, thank you very much. You are really helpful.

Quote:
Will you say Do 17 and Bf 110 were the same aircraft? I think Lesniewski saw the differences of aircraft he shot at 2.9. and 4.9. very well, but he couldn`t attach the right type, as most Polish fighter pilots at that time.
Combat of Leśniewski was witnessed by Rolski. He identified the enemy type as a Me 110 already in France.

Oh yes... in France, but not in Poland. That is the big difference.

Quote:
So isn`t true that Polish pilots couldn`t recognize German types?
It is apparent the German pilots invented all their victories over polish fighter aircraft because they could not recognise P-11 and P-24.

Surely it was for Germans very difficult to differ P.11 and P.24. They are very similar and the German pilots was told the Poles were flying the newest aicraft. But no way. It makes a bigger difference when you cannot differ fighter from bomber aircraft.

Quote:
The German documents are very reliable; they confirm that on 2.9. I./ZG 1 was engaged. And they confirm that on 4.9. I.(J)/LG 2 was involved. Will you deny these facts? And my last question: what is here ridiculous?! These are very reliable informations.
If the German documents are so reliable, please tell me at what time I.(J)/LG2 claims took place? Can you exclude Leśniewski was downed by eg. I/ZG1?

On 4.9. I.(J)/LG 2 surely fought with III/4. Or could you report another Polish squadron did?
We know I./ZG 1 is a problem. But there is no evidence of downed Bf 110 on this day. In Poland Bf 110`s operated as "Rotte" (two-aircraft formation). Pniak reported about 3 aircraft that were attacking him. Certainly a "Kette" - 3 Ju 87 of III./StG 2, not 3 Bf 110`s. I think Pniak didn`t recognized the aircraft right. Your argumentation is weak. Other sources for twin-engined aircraft?


Quote:
Something more to Pniak. He saw his victims crash on ground!!. The first time on 2.9. and the second time on 4.9. As I researched and wrote in my books and articles this can`t be true. I am most convinced this could be a "black sheep" in the family of fighter pilots.
There is no such quote in Pniak's report. As yet you was unable to identify the enemy of Pniak, so I am very curious how you can exclude any losses? Overclaim happens but the only deliberate false claims I am awared of were made by pilots of JG27.

Oh, you are wrong about Pniak. See Cynk Polskie Lotnictwo... page 182 for 2.9. Pniak reported that his victim - a Dornier - hit the ground.
On 4.9. see page 242. Pniak reported the aircraft he attacked hit the wood. Both reports are origin combat reports written on 4 September!
III./StG 2 had one aircraft totally lost and this one was downed by Lachowicki-Czechowicz. Perhaps Pniak wasn`t a black sheep but only had a big fancy...


Quote:
Franek, you think all Polish accounts even written many years after are only facts, are you sure? You mean (for patriotic purposes?) there can`t be a black sheep in the family, but you are wrong.
Pniak's report has been written just after the combat. The problem is that Polish documents quite often disagree with yours, so you always tend to ignore the former.

I explained many things and gave sources and page numbers. Now it is your turn writing something more logical.

Marius

Franek Grabowski 22nd August 2005 00:40

Re: German Claims in Poland 1939
 
Marius

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marius
Pawlak published Skalski`s origin report (Samotne zalogi, page 82. Look also Lotnictwo 5/05). In the report there is only one crash of a German aircraft - certainly Bf 110 of Müllenheim-Rehberg, also attacked by Lesniewski. The other attacked aircraft flew away in formation and Skalski couldn`t chase it. Will you deny it?

I have a copy of the original report, as well as I think most of the other ones of the unit (all from the combat). They clearly note Skalski and Leśniewski fought with two different formations. Fullstop. Skalski had a clash with a defensive circle while Leśniewski attacked a formation flying in a vic. The aircraft seen fly away by Skalski were from the other formation, not the one he fought with. It is clear when comparing his report, his report from the UK and his memoirs. The report does not mention if the second aircraft crashed but it does not have a comment it did not. The latter was present in his other reports from 4 September. It is clear he forget in haste to add the sentence.

Quote:

Sorry, but I don`t understand. Why do you think this? Page number please.
You made the quote in III/4 article and put in doubt an account of Rolski.

Quote:

Franek, one of Skalski`s report was written in 1941 (!!), as many others too. You are writing about Polish documents written in France (earliest October/November 1939). That is right. And therefore you confirm that most of the origin Polish documents were going lost!
Many were lost but a lot survived, though in varying degree depending on unit. For III/4 there is a nice set of documents, there are some for Brygada Pościgowa and there is some for the bomber units. There are also numerous diaries written at the time of combats like Ferić's diary. Many of the reports written in France and UK were based on personal notes and documents hold by the airmen. For example, Rolski's report. You do not have such a complete set of narratives for the German units.

This is not the answer to my question! Please give the page number.

Quote:

So you confirm that Polish authors wrote fairy-tales? Great...
Did you find something that is contradictory to my research? Source? Document? Please give more details.
I clearly wrote that most of the books were written without access to archival stuff which was and is held in London. Therefore they were based mostly on memories and as such contain several errors.

Quote:

My dear! Even the GQM records are relating about one man parachuted of I./ZG 1 (in the origin FSA what means Fallschirmabsprung - bale out). Also Hans Weng survived the war and reported later about his baling out and captivity in Poland (see for example one of the Jägerblatt issues).
GQM notes it was Muehlenheim-Rehberg who reputedly baled out. It does not read FSA by the way. You mention an account of Weng but obviously it was written several years after the war. Why do you consider it accurate? The one of Steffens (gunner of Hammes) is not very accurate.

Quote:

I cleared my mistake with KG 3 later in my answer to J.B.Cynk. In the meanwhile I have found the archive documents of Prof.Trenel (BA/MA Freiburg), who confirms that there were no engagemnets between KG 3 and Polish fighters on 2.9.
You noted that you cannot verify if KG3 suffered any losses. Nevermind. The question is, what was the unit engaged by the Polish fighters. As long as you cannot identify it, you cannot write they suffered no losses.

Quote:

What bomber type? Who reported this? What is the name of the airman? What unit?
Leśniewski, he identified the aircraft as a Do 17. They were flying in a vic of 5.

Quote:

Okay. Who else reported about two-engined aircraft? Source, page number?
Diary of the unit, p. 5 & 6, report of Rolski, p. 7 & 8. Actually there were only two reports filed after the second combat, one by Pniak and one by Skalski. The latter mentions Ju 87s only, although in the later accounts he identified his opponents as Me 109s.

Quote:

Okay. So you mean they didn`t recognized the types of German aircraft one year later in England, but they did it already in France 1939/40 (see above)?
In Poland they were apparently not awared of the presence of the type. Concerning England, note such types like He 113 or P-36 appearing on claim lists of both sides.

Quote:

And so your conclusion is III/4 fouhgt on 4.9. with Bf 110 of ZG 1??
No. My conclusion is that I cannot exclude it was I/ZG1.

Quote:

Okay. See Cynk "Polskie Lotnictwo..." page 247. Bajan`s list on 4.9.:
kpt. Lesniewski 1 Me 110.
See the book and check when the Bajan's list was prepared.

Quote:

So read about the fighting with Ju 87 on 1 and 2 September between III/2 and I./StG 2.
In your article? Later, I do not have it at hand.

Quote:

Okay, thank you very much. You are really helpful.
I do have copies of documents, Me 110 was added by Rolski already in France. Previously there were only Do 17s!

Quote:

Oh yes... in France, but not in Poland. That is the big difference.
When filing the report in Poland he was apparently not awared of the type. So simple.

Quote:

Surely it was for Germans very difficult to differ P.11 and P.24. They are very similar and the German pilots was told the Poles were flying the newest aicraft. But no way. It makes a bigger difference when you cannot differ fighter from bomber aircraft.
Then compare dimensions and silhouette of Me 110 and Do 17, the latter in typical Bleistifft variant with inline engines as appearing in the aviation press of the period.

Quote:

On 4.9. I.(J)/LG 2 surely fought with III/4. Or could you report another Polish squadron did?
There were two separate combats of III/4. I cannot exclude I.(J)/LG2 took part only in one of them. Anything on your side to verify time of the mission?

Quote:

We know I./ZG 1 is a problem. But there is no evidence of downed Bf 110 on this day. In Poland Bf 110`s operated as "Rotte" (two-aircraft formation). Pniak reported about 3 aircraft that were attacking him. Certainly a "Kette" - 3 Ju 87 of III./StG 2, not 3 Bf 110`s. I think Pniak didn`t recognized the aircraft right. Your argumentation is weak. Other sources for twin-engined aircraft?
What makes you believe Me 110s flew in sections of two and no other formation? Rolski describing tactics of Me 110s mentioned sections and not pairs, he also described an attack of three Me 110s on Leśniewski.

Quote:

Oh, you are wrong about Pniak. See Cynk Polskie Lotnictwo... page 182 for 2.9. Pniak reported that his victim - a Dornier - hit the ground.
On 4.9. see page 242. Pniak reported the aircraft he attacked hit the wood. Both reports are origin combat reports written on 4 September!
III./StG 2 had one aircraft totally lost and this one was downed by Lachowicki-Czechowicz. Perhaps Pniak wasn`t a black sheep but only had a big fancy...
I thought you are reffering to 4 September combat only. The phrase used by Pniak literally does not mean hit the wood, rather fell down over the wood. Pilots reported various things, how about claims of I(J)/LG2? Only one P.11 was destroyed, the one of Leśniewski. How would you describe them? Liars or black sheeps?

Quote:

I explained many things and gave sources and page numbers. Now it is your turn writing something more logical.
All the time I reffer to original documents. You have their reference numbers in my reply in Lotnictwo.

Marius 23rd August 2005 01:48

Re: German Claims in Poland 1939
 
Hi Franek,


Marius

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marius
Pawlak published Skalski`s origin report (Samotne zalogi, page 82. Look also Lotnictwo 5/05). In the report there is only one crash of a German aircraft - certainly Bf 110 of Müllenheim-Rehberg, also attacked by Lesniewski. The other attacked aircraft flew away in formation and Skalski couldn`t chase it. Will you deny it?

I have a copy of the original report, as well as I think most of the other ones of the unit (all from the combat). They clearly note Skalski and Leśniewski fought with two different formations. Fullstop. Skalski had a clash with a defensive circle while Leśniewski attacked a formation flying in a vic. The aircraft seen fly away by Skalski were from the other formation, not the one he fought with. It is clear when comparing his report, his report from the UK and his memoirs.


Perhaps both pilots didn`t attack at exactly the same minute. The Polish reports mean two formations, because Lesniewski and Skalski didn´t attacked together. Nevertheless they could have attacked the same formation from different directions. I think Skalski shot at the same aircraft Lesniewski attacked a while earlier (of which one man baled out). "Defensive circle" of the Bf 110`s - or whatever it was - could have been made after the attack by Lesniewski. And after that appeared Skalski on the scene (from other direction) and shot at the aircraft where still onboard was Müllenheim-Rehberg. Than Skalski saw Müllenheim-Rehberg`s aircraft crash on the ground. Lesniewski saw the (same) aicraft crash on the ground.


The report does not mention if the second aircraft crashed but it does not have a comment it did not. The latter was present in his other reports from 4 September. It is clear he forget in haste to add the sentence.


Oh yeah, he forgot to report that the aicraft crashed on the ground... Perfectly. And also the Germans forgot to report about their Bf 110 crashing on the ground. The names of the air crew were also forgotten. And the graves of the German air crew disappeared after the liberation 1945...


Quote:
Franek, one of Skalski`s report was written in 1941 (!!), as many others too. You are writing about Polish documents written in France (earliest October/November 1939). That is right. And therefore you confirm that most of the origin Polish documents were going lost!


Many were lost but a lot survived, though in varying degree depending on unit. For III/4 there is a nice set of documents, there are some for Brygada Pościgowa and there is some for the bomber units. There are also numerous diaries written at the time of combats like Ferić's diary. Many of the reports written in France and UK were based on personal notes and documents hold by the airmen. For example, Rolski's report. You do not have such a complete set of narratives for the German units.


About the documents for III/4, Pursuit Brigade and Feric`s diary you can find a lot of things in the book written by Cynk (Polskie lotnictwo...). Also nothing really surprising me.
You are wrong commenting the German documents in this way (by the way; in my book there is no bibliography for Kampfflieger, but for Jagdflieger again - a mistake made by the publisher).
I needed several years to check what I found in Bundesarchiv. And this is not the question of quantity of the documents. More important is the quality and reliability of them. Though all mentioned above origin Polish documents are confirming what I am writing in my books and articles - if you interpret them in the right way with German documents in the other hand, but you won`t accept it. Obviously you will do anything to deny any information coming from Germany.


Quote:
So you confirm that Polish authors wrote fairy-tales? Great...
Did you find something that is contradictory to my research? Source? Document? Please give more details.
I clearly wrote that most of the books were written without access to archival stuff which was and is held in London. Therefore they were based mostly on memories and as such contain several errors.


It makes a big difference if the author is writing a whole fairy-tale or if he makes some errors. These errors are much visible when you study origin German documents. And you will see this in the future. Also the (until now) undiscovered origin Polish documents (if they really exist) surely will confirm the German documents. The Polish documents mentioned above do it and all the others will do it. Why? Because I am reproducing what origin German documents say. So simple. Otherwise there are many differences when you compare what was written later in France and England. Even this is not only clashing with original German but also with original Polish documents from September 1939. Skalski`s different reports make this problem clearly visible.

Quote:
My dear! Even the GQM records are relating about one man parachuted of I./ZG 1 (in the origin FSA what means Fallschirmabsprung - bale out). Also Hans Weng survived the war and reported later about his baling out and captivity in Poland (see for example one of the Jägerblatt issues).

GQM notes it was Muehlenheim-Rehberg who reputedly baled out. It does not read FSA by the way. You mention an account of Weng but obviously it was written several years after the war. Why do you consider it accurate? The one of Steffens (gunner of Hammes) is not very accurate.


Yes indeed, according to GQM Mühlenheim-Rehberg baled out, but this means an original report. The German fellows saw one man baled out and directly after the combat they believed it was their Gruppenkommandeur. But in fact it was his radio operator Weng. Later Weng confirmed that he baled out. And the story is true, because the pilot fell to death in the crashed aircraft. There is no reason for darkening these facts. Just simple information you have to interpret in the right way.


Quote:
I cleared my mistake with KG 3 later in my answer to J.B.Cynk. In the meanwhile I have found the archive documents of Prof.Trenel (BA/MA Freiburg), who confirms that there were no engagemnets between KG 3 and Polish fighters on 2.9.

You noted that you cannot verify if KG3 suffered any losses. Nevermind. The question is, what was the unit engaged by the Polish fighters. As long as you cannot identify it, you cannot write they suffered no losses.


I couldn`t do before some years, but now I can. KG 3 didn`t had any losses on 2.9. If you don`t believe it see in my book Kampfflieger, where I detailed describe the action of every German bomber unit. Otherwise Luftwaffe lost in September 1939 78 bombers. You will find in my book the fate of every single aircraft with date, location, cause and so on.
By the way I identified the unit III/4 fought with. It was only I./ZG 1.


Quote:
What bomber type? Who reported this? What is the name of the airman? What unit?
Leśniewski, he identified the aircraft as a Do 17. They were flying in a vic of 5.


My god! This was the Bf 110 of Müllenheim-Rehberg. You don`t understand this fact? Or you won`t understand? Do you have a better interpretation of this aerial fighting? Give it up, it is senseless to deny the simpelst facts.


Quote:
Okay. Who else reported about two-engined aircraft? Source, page number?
Diary of the unit, p. 5 & 6, report of Rolski, p. 7 & 8. Actually there were only two reports filed after the second combat, one by Pniak and one by Skalski. The latter mentions Ju 87s only, although in the later accounts he identified his opponents as Me 109s.


Also Cynk (Polskie lotnictwo...) is writing about Me 110 as according to the diary of the unit. But I asked for the term "twin-engined aircraft". If there is nothing about twin-engined aircraft, but only about Me 110`s or whatever other type, so my interpretation is better one than yours. As I wrote formerly the pilots described the single-engined fighters as "Bf 110`s". And on 2.9. the Bf 110`s as "Do 17`s". Tne conclusion is: they couldn`t describe the aircraft as what they really were called. And perhaps they didn`t all over the war. This isn`t a new information. Many authors wrote about these problems, even Cynk.
And in origin reports Pniak was credited with 1 Ju 87 destroyed (!!). Cynk is writing about this fact and is wondering himselves about Pniaks "two-engined aircraft".



Quote:
Okay. See Cynk "Polskie Lotnictwo..." page 247. Bajan`s list on 4.9.:
kpt. Lesniewski 1 Me 110.

See the book and check when the Bajan's list was prepared.


The Bajan`s list was prepared on documents they had at that time (1945). According to the origin diary of III/4 it was a "Me 110", wasn`t it? So what again is your problem?


Quote:
Okay, thank you very much. You are really helpful.
I do have copies of documents, Me 110 was added by Rolski already in France. Previously there were only Do 17s!


Oh yes, great. And you think in France he remembered exactly every single day, correctly every single aircraft he saw in Poland?


Quote:
Oh yes... in France, but not in Poland. That is the big difference.
When filing the report in Poland he was apparently not awared of the type. So simple.


Yes, but again, later he remembered it exactly and every single day. Sorry, this is much to less for seroius discussion.


Quote:
Surely it was for Germans very difficult to differ P.11 and P.24. They are very similar and the German pilots was told the Poles were flying the newest aicraft. But no way. It makes a bigger difference when you cannot differ fighter from bomber aircraft.
Then compare dimensions and silhouette of Me 110 and Do 17, the latter in typical Bleistifft variant with inline engines as appearing in the aviation press of the period.


That is not the point. For German pilots it wasn`t important if they fought with P.7, P.11 or P.24. Practically these types were the typical charasterictic Polish fighter aircraft. No matter how they called it. The misinterpretation by Poles of Me 110 for Do 17 had bad consequenses for themselves when they attacked the Messerschmitt in the front of 2 canons and 4 machine guns.


Quote:
On 4.9. I.(J)/LG 2 surely fought with III/4. Or could you report another Polish squadron did?
There were two separate combats of III/4. I cannot exclude I.(J)/LG2 took part only in one of them. Anything on your side to verify time of the mission?


Yes, I can explain that. The first combat at appr. 12:30 was fought with Ju 87`s of 8. and 9.Staffel/StG 2.
The second combat, about one hour later, was fought with 7.Staffel/StG 2 and 1.(J)/LG 2. Even origin Skalski`s report is confirming that. He evidently damaged an aircraft of 7.Staffel of which the Bordfunker bale out to his death. Skalski reported exactly the same thing.


Quote:
We know I./ZG 1 is a problem. But there is no evidence of downed Bf 110 on this day. In Poland Bf 110`s operated as "Rotte" (two-aircraft formation). Pniak reported about 3 aircraft that were attacking him. Certainly a "Kette" - 3 Ju 87 of III./StG 2, not 3 Bf 110`s. I think Pniak didn`t recognized the aircraft right. Your argumentation is weak. Other sources for twin-engined aircraft?

What makes you believe Me 110s flew in sections of two and no other formation? Rolski describing tactics of Me 110s mentioned sections and not pairs, he also described an attack of three Me 110s on Leśniewski.


See for example the origin document of the experiences of I.(Z)/LG 1 published in Jagdflieger. German fighter units (Bf 109 and Bf 110) generally never operated with 3 aircraft. But the bombers did. And Polish units did it also. Nevertheless 3 Me 110 (surely Me 109) behind Lesniewski is possible (but only exceptionally).


Quote:
Oh, you are wrong about Pniak. See Cynk Polskie Lotnictwo... page 182 for 2.9. Pniak reported that his victim - a Dornier - hit the ground.
On 4.9. see page 242. Pniak reported the aircraft he attacked hit the wood. Both reports are origin combat reports written on 4 September!
III./StG 2 had one aircraft totally lost and this one was downed by Lachowicki-Czechowicz. Perhaps Pniak wasn`t a black sheep but only had a big fancy...

I thought you are reffering to 4 September combat only. The phrase used by Pniak literally does not mean hit the wood, rather fell down over the wood. Pilots reported various things, how about claims of I(J)/LG2? Only one P.11 was destroyed, the one of Leśniewski. How would you describe them? Liars or black sheeps?


Franek! My wife was teaching Polish language and she says: it means that the aircraft "fell into the wood" and you have to understand it also as if the aircraft "crashed into the wood". I am very sorry, but my wife exactly knows what she says.
I.(J)/LG 2: if all 3 pilots had reported their aircraft hit the ground, and I could exclude that they all shot at the same aircraft of Lesniewski, so I would say that there is a black sheep under them. Why not?
Again you are refering to Pniak. You can be sure on 2.9. Pniak did not shot at the same aircraft as Lesniewski. Nevertheless he saw his victim crash on the ground. According to German documents there was only 1 Bf 110 lost. This is confirmed not only by one, but by several documents: GQM loss list and Fliegerdivision 1 loss list. But also by Fliegerdivision 1 daily loss list, where 1 Bf 110 was reported lost until 16:00 hours. The same fact is reported by Prof. Trenel who during the war saw other documents (perhaps even the war diary of I./ZG 1).
I described above (with explanation of my wife) what Pniak reported on 4.9. On that day III./StG 2 lost only one aircraft which indeed crashed on the ground. Even Pawlak (Samotne zalogi, page 91) and Cynk (Polskie lotnictwo, page 241) confirm what I am talking about and what German documents are talking about. The authors wrote something about personal papers of Wilhelm Berschneider, exactly the pilot who fell in the crashed aircraft according to German documents.
So in 3 days Pniak reported about two aircraft he claimed shot down and which - as he described - in the result fell or crashed on the ground. Unfortunate accident? Do you think under Poles there was no one who could report after combat about things that never happened? Yes I see, one time the pilot could have seen too much. But two times in three days? I will call a little bit suspect.

Marius

Franek Grabowski 23rd August 2005 14:10

Re: German Claims in Poland 1939
 
Marius

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marius
Perhaps both pilots didn`t attack at exactly the same minute. The Polish reports mean two formations, because Lesniewski and Skalski didn´t attacked together. Nevertheless they could have attacked the same formation from different directions. I think Skalski shot at the same aircraft Lesniewski attacked a while earlier (of which one man baled out). "Defensive circle" of the Bf 110`s - or whatever it was - could have been made after the attack by Lesniewski. And after that appeared Skalski on the scene (from other direction) and shot at the aircraft where still onboard was Müllenheim-Rehberg. Than Skalski saw Müllenheim-Rehberg`s aircraft crash on the ground. Lesniewski saw the (same) aicraft crash on the ground.

Documents are perfectly clear. Skalski separated from the Eskadra flying towards the bombers flying in vics of 5 and attacked another formation of about 9 flying line astern and then reforming into the circle.

Quote:

Oh yeah, he forgot to report that the aicraft crashed on the ground... Perfectly. And also the Germans forgot to report about their Bf 110 crashing on the ground. The names of the air crew were also forgotten. And the graves of the German air crew disappeared after the liberation 1945...
Who told you there were any graves? The Me 110 could have been damaged in a forced landing behind the German lines. Generally, your interpretation is that if an aircraft force landed with say 50% damage, the Polish pilot who claimed it is a bloody liar.

Quote:

About the documents for III/4, Pursuit Brigade and Feric`s diary you can find a lot of things in the book written by Cynk (Polskie lotnictwo...). Also nothing really surprising me.
You are wrong commenting the German documents in this way (by the way; in my book there is no bibliography for Kampfflieger, but for Jagdflieger again - a mistake made by the publisher).
I needed several years to check what I found in Bundesarchiv. And this is not the question of quantity of the documents. More important is the quality and reliability of them. Though all mentioned above origin Polish documents are confirming what I am writing in my books and articles - if you interpret them in the right way with German documents in the other hand, but you won`t accept it. Obviously you will do anything to deny any information coming from Germany.
Your interpretation in the right way means to ommit anything that do not fit to your theories. Just like with the mysterious Oberst Henschke.

Quote:

It makes a big difference if the author is writing a whole fairy-tale or if he makes some errors. These errors are much visible when you study origin German documents. And you will see this in the future. Also the (until now) undiscovered origin Polish documents (if they really exist) surely will confirm the German documents. The Polish documents mentioned above do it and all the others will do it. Why? Because I am reproducing what origin German documents say. So simple. Otherwise there are many differences when you compare what was written later in France and England. Even this is not only clashing with original German but also with original Polish documents from September 1939. Skalski`s different reports make this problem clearly visible.
Polish documents do not confirm your theories.

Quote:

Yes indeed, according to GQM Mühlenheim-Rehberg baled out, but this means an original report. The German fellows saw one man baled out and directly after the combat they believed it was their Gruppenkommandeur. But in fact it was his radio operator Weng. Later Weng confirmed that he baled out. And the story is true, because the pilot fell to death in the crashed aircraft. There is no reason for darkening these facts. Just simple information you have to interpret in the right way.
Your whole interpretation is based on a post-war account of Weng. I am not denying that Weng bailed out but only trying to show how weak your proofs are.

Quote:

I couldn`t do before some years, but now I can. KG 3 didn`t had any losses on 2.9. If you don`t believe it see in my book Kampfflieger, where I detailed describe the action of every German bomber unit. Otherwise Luftwaffe lost in September 1939 78 bombers. You will find in my book the fate of every single aircraft with date, location, cause and so on.
By the way I identified the unit III/4 fought with. It was only I./ZG 1.
Well, you could not make such a definite statement earlier this year. And I am afraid your statement about ZG1 remains unproved.

Quote:

My god! This was the Bf 110 of Müllenheim-Rehberg. You don`t understand this fact? Or you won`t understand? Do you have a better interpretation of this aerial fighting? Give it up, it is senseless to deny the simpelst facts.
As yet it is you, who deny the simpliest facts. Once again, there were two separate formations!

Quote:

Also Cynk (Polskie lotnictwo...) is writing about Me 110 as according to the diary of the unit. But I asked for the term "twin-engined aircraft". If there is nothing about twin-engined aircraft, but only about Me 110`s or whatever other type, so my interpretation is better one than yours. As I wrote formerly the pilots described the single-engined fighters as "Bf 110`s". And on 2.9. the Bf 110`s as "Do 17`s". Tne conclusion is: they couldn`t describe the aircraft as what they really were called. And perhaps they didn`t all over the war. This isn`t a new information. Many authors wrote about these problems, even Cynk.
There is no interpretation on my side. Diary clearly mentions Ju 87s and Do 17s. Man, you are boring! Please stop writing those nonsenses or provide me with a copy of a document confirming your version.

Quote:

And in origin reports Pniak was credited with 1 Ju 87 destroyed (!!). Cynk is writing about this fact and is wondering himselves about Pniaks "two-engined aircraft".
Pniak was 'credited' with a Ju 87 in a diary. Cynk was wondering, why a difference between the diary and the report occured.

Quote:

The Bajan`s list was prepared on documents they had at that time (1945). According to the origin diary of III/4 it was a "Me 110", wasn`t it? So what again is your problem?
Was not. Me 110 annotation was probably added by Rolski in France.

Quote:

Oh yes, great. And you think in France he remembered exactly every single day, correctly every single aircraft he saw in Poland?
He had all the documents of the Dywizjon. What is the problem to recall the situation, when having the documents?

Quote:

Yes, but again, later he remembered it exactly and every single day. Sorry, this is much to less for seroius discussion.
You have not read his report nor the other documents. So how we can discuss the matter seriously?

Quote:

That is not the point. For German pilots it wasn`t important if they fought with P.7, P.11 or P.24. Practically these types were the typical charasterictic Polish fighter aircraft. No matter how they called it. The misinterpretation by Poles of Me 110 for Do 17 had bad consequenses for themselves when they attacked the Messerschmitt in the front of 2 canons and 4 machine guns.
Me 110 and Do 17 looked like a typical twin engined aircraft and that is why they were confused with all the consequences. The latter has nothing to the fact errors occured.

Quote:

Yes, I can explain that. The first combat at appr. 12:30 was fought with Ju 87`s of 8. and 9.Staffel/StG 2.
The second combat, about one hour later, was fought with 7.Staffel/StG 2 and 1.(J)/LG 2. Even origin Skalski`s report is confirming that. He evidently damaged an aircraft of 7.Staffel of which the Bordfunker bale out to his death. Skalski reported exactly the same thing.
You have changed your interpretation after my reply. Please provide me copies of documents that confirm time of both missions.

Quote:

See for example the origin document of the experiences of I.(Z)/LG 1 published in Jagdflieger. German fighter units (Bf 109 and Bf 110) generally never operated with 3 aircraft. But the bombers did. And Polish units did it also. Nevertheless 3 Me 110 (surely Me 109) behind Lesniewski is possible (but only exceptionally).
Actually, there is a number of reports confirming Jagdwaffe flew section of 3 formations as late as Battle of Britain. Also, Skalski clearly described the German formation in his article about fighter tactics.

Quote:

Franek! My wife was teaching Polish language and she says: it means that the aircraft "fell into the wood" and you have to understand it also as if the aircraft "crashed into the wood". I am very sorry, but my wife exactly knows what she says.
Sorry, but I am native speaker.

Quote:

I.(J)/LG 2: if all 3 pilots had reported their aircraft hit the ground, and I could exclude that they all shot at the same aircraft of Lesniewski, so I would say that there is a black sheep under them. Why not?
So, why do you not do so?

Quote:

Again you are refering to Pniak. You can be sure on 2.9. Pniak did not shot at the same aircraft as Lesniewski. Nevertheless he saw his victim crash on the ground.
The reasons of overclaim were often discussed on this forum. You still cannot identify the aircraft Pniak was firing at, however.

Quote:

According to German documents there was only 1 Bf 110 lost. This is confirmed not only by one, but by several documents: GQM loss list and Fliegerdivision 1 loss list. But also by Fliegerdivision 1 daily loss list, where 1 Bf 110 was reported lost until 16:00 hours. The same fact is reported by Prof. Trenel who during the war saw other documents (perhaps even the war diary of I./ZG 1).
Correct me, but I believe the aircraft that failed to return will not be listed as a loss until it is confirmed it not landed anywhere.

Quote:

I described above (with explanation of my wife) what Pniak reported on 4.9. On that day III./StG 2 lost only one aircraft which indeed crashed on the ground. Even Pawlak (Samotne zalogi, page 91) and Cynk (Polskie lotnictwo, page 241) confirm what I am talking about and what German documents are talking about. The authors wrote something about personal papers of Wilhelm Berschneider, exactly the pilot who fell in the crashed aircraft according to German documents.
You do not even know what they wrote. It is noted in the diary that some items were found on hte crashsite just near the airfield.

Quote:

So in 3 days Pniak reported about two aircraft he claimed shot down and which - as he described - in the result fell or crashed on the ground. Unfortunate accident? Do you think under Poles there was no one who could report after combat about things that never happened? Yes I see, one time the pilot could have seen too much. But two times in three days? I will call a little bit suspect.
Both claims were made in fierce dog-fights. Following your logic, we may call all the Jagdwaffe pilots blatant liars after their show in the Battle of Britain.

Marius 24th August 2005 00:12

Re: German Claims in Poland 1939
 
Franek,


Documents are perfectly clear. Skalski separated from the Eskadra flying towards the bombers flying in vics of 5 and attacked another formation of about 9 flying line astern and then reforming into the circle.

Nevertheless, there is no other loss of a second Bf 110 or another aircraft. It is also possible that Skalski overcoloured the fate of the aircraft he shot at, similar to Pniak (?), yes, why not?
If we would accept two separate formations, so nevertheless no trace of bombers. The only solution I see: two squadrons of Bf 110`s of I./ZG 1. 3.Staffel as high cover and the other preparing for attacks on the ground. If Skalski attacked another aircraft than of 3.Staffel, so he surely overcoloured the result. All this only hypothetical.
I cannot exclude that Lesniewski and Skalski saw the same aircraft crash on the ground, when I will believe what Skalski wrote in the original report.

Quote:
Oh yeah, he forgot to report that the aicraft crashed on the ground... Perfectly. And also the Germans forgot to report about their Bf 110 crashing on the ground. The names of the air crew were also forgotten. And the graves of the German air crew disappeared after the liberation 1945...
Who told you there were any graves? The Me 110 could have been damaged in a forced landing behind the German lines. Generally, your interpretation is that if an aircraft force landed with say 50% damage, the Polish pilot who claimed it is a bloody liar.


No, this wouldn`t be the aircraft Skalski shot at. An aircraft that force landed on enemy territory would have been reported as missing. They did not fight behind German lines.
I never spoke about "bloody liars". The reports of Pniak for 2.9. and 4.9. are suspect in many matters. I think due to my research about these combats Polish historians could try - if they want - to research Pniak`s victories he claimed in England.


Quote:
About the documents for III/4, Pursuit Brigade and Feric`s diary you can find a lot of things in the book written by Cynk (Polskie lotnictwo...). Also nothing really surprising me.
You are wrong commenting the German documents in this way (by the way; in my book there is no bibliography for Kampfflieger, but for Jagdflieger again - a mistake made by the publisher).
I needed several years to check what I found in Bundesarchiv. And this is not the question of quantity of the documents. More important is the quality and reliability of them. Though all mentioned above origin Polish documents are confirming what I am writing in my books and articles - if you interpret them in the right way with German documents in the other hand, but you won`t accept it. Obviously you will do anything to deny any information coming from Germany.
Your interpretation in the right way means to ommit anything that do not fit to your theories. Just like with the mysterious Oberst Henschke.


I was researching for Oberst Henschke in German archives and I have found nothing.



Quote:
Yes indeed, according to GQM Mühlenheim-Rehberg baled out, but this means an original report. The German fellows saw one man baled out and directly after the combat they believed it was their Gruppenkommandeur. But in fact it was his radio operator Weng. Later Weng confirmed that he baled out. And the story is true, because the pilot fell to death in the crashed aircraft. There is no reason for darkening these facts. Just simple information you have to interpret in the right way.
Your whole interpretation is based on a post-war account of Weng. I am not denying that Weng bailed out but only trying to show how weak your proofs are.


???!!!???
If one Bf 110 was shot down and one man baled out and one man got into captivity and this man returned later to his unit and confirmed he was the one who baled out so what is here weak? The story is based on German documents, not only on the post-war account. As we know for sure Weng was the Bordfunker of Müllenheim-Rehberg. Any more questions?


Quote:
I couldn`t do before some years, but now I can. KG 3 didn`t had any losses on 2.9. If you don`t believe it see in my book Kampfflieger, where I detailed describe the action of every German bomber unit. Otherwise Luftwaffe lost in September 1939 78 bombers. You will find in my book the fate of every single aircraft with date, location, cause and so on.
By the way I identified the unit III/4 fought with. It was only I./ZG 1.
Well, you could not make such a definite statement earlier this year. And I am afraid your statement about ZG1 remains unproved.


The article about III/4 was send to Lotnictwo one year before it was published (!). In my answer to Cynk earlier this year I corrected my mistake with KG 3 and stated III/4 fought on 2.9. with I./ZG 1 only. Right?


Quote:
My god! This was the Bf 110 of Müllenheim-Rehberg. You don`t understand this fact? Or you won`t understand? Do you have a better interpretation of this aerial fighting? Give it up, it is senseless to deny the simpelst facts.
As yet it is you, who deny the simpliest facts. Once again, there were two separate formations!


It`s like a defensive circle... Okay, maybe two formations, but no trace of bombers. Possibly indeed two squadron`s of Bf 110`s of I./ZG 1. Furtheron only one loss of a Bf 110.



Quote:
Also Cynk (Polskie lotnictwo...) is writing about Me 110 as according to the diary of the unit. But I asked for the term "twin-engined aircraft". If there is nothing about twin-engined aircraft, but only about Me 110`s or whatever other type, so my interpretation is better one than yours. As I wrote formerly the pilots described the single-engined fighters as "Bf 110`s". And on 2.9. the Bf 110`s as "Do 17`s". Tne conclusion is: they couldn`t describe the aircraft as what they really were called. And perhaps they didn`t all over the war. This isn`t a new information. Many authors wrote about these problems, even Cynk.
There is no interpretation on my side. Diary clearly mentions Ju 87s and Do 17s. Man, you are boring! Please stop writing those nonsenses or provide me with a copy of a document confirming your version.


???!!!???
So is there in the diary something like that: "twin-engined aircraft" or not?


Quote:
And in origin reports Pniak was credited with 1 Ju 87 destroyed (!!). Cynk is writing about this fact and is wondering himselves about Pniaks "two-engined aircraft".
Pniak was 'credited' with a Ju 87 in a diary. Cynk was wondering, why a difference between the diary and the report occured.


In Pniak`s report there is no trace of any type of aircraft. He saw seven "twin-engined aircraft" and when climbing to them he was attacked by 3 others which he describes as of the same type. So we know nothing. But German documents of III./StG 2 confirm the type written in the diary (Ju 87).
By the way, Pniak could have seen a reconnaissance Do 17P and thought all the rest was of the same type. One or two Do 17P always flew with a Stuka formation to make target photos.



Quote:
Oh yes, great. And you think in France he remembered exactly every single day, correctly every single aircraft he saw in Poland?
He had all the documents of the Dywizjon. What is the problem to recall the situation, when having the documents?


The problem is nevertheless visible. According only to Polish documents we never could find out with what type of aircraft III/4 really fought. That is the point.


Quote:
Yes, but again, later he remembered it exactly and every single day. Sorry, this is much to less for seroius discussion.
You have not read his report nor the other documents. So how we can discuss the matter seriously?


Perhaps you could write here down what might be very important for the discussion? Until now I only heared many times that I didn`t read Polish reports and I didn`t read this and I didn`t read that and again I didn`t read Polish reports. What is so decisive in these Polish reports?




Quote:
Yes, I can explain that. The first combat at appr. 12:30 was fought with Ju 87`s of 8. and 9.Staffel/StG 2.
The second combat, about one hour later, was fought with 7.Staffel/StG 2 and 1.(J)/LG 2. Even origin Skalski`s report is confirming that. He evidently damaged an aircraft of 7.Staffel of which the Bordfunker bale out to his death. Skalski reported exactly the same thing.
You have changed your interpretation after my reply. Please provide me copies of documents that confirm time of both missions.


Okay: combat flight for the 8. and 9./StG 2: 11:50-13:10
7./StG 2 and 1.(J)/LG 2 time not known, but later than 8. and 9.Staffel..
We know (Polish documents are confirming this) there were two engagements. First at appr. 12.30 (here was shot down the only Ju 87 of 9.Staffel) and the other combat appr. an hour later with much more aircraft of III/4 (see for example Cynk - Polskie lotnictwo..., page 240-244). Here Skalski damaged the Ju 87 of 7.Staffel of which one man baled out to his death. There is no doubt that Bf 109 pilots claimed here their 3 victories (one not confirmed).


Quote:
See for example the origin document of the experiences of I.(Z)/LG 1 published in Jagdflieger. German fighter units (Bf 109 and Bf 110) generally never operated with 3 aircraft. But the bombers did. And Polish units did it also. Nevertheless 3 Me 110 (surely Me 109) behind Lesniewski is possible (but only exceptionally).

Actually, there is a number of reports confirming Jagdwaffe flew section of 3 formations as late as Battle of Britain. Also, Skalski clearly described the German formation in his article about fighter tactics.


Perhaps this occured now and then - exceptionally, but the general German fighter formations were: Rotte (2 aircraft) and Schwarm (4 aircraft). No doubt.


Quote:
Franek! My wife was teaching Polish language and she says: it means that the aircraft "fell into the wood" and you have to understand it also as if the aircraft "crashed into the wood". I am very sorry, but my wife exactly knows what she says.
Sorry, but I am native speaker.


My wife is native speaker and graduate of Polish philology.


Quote:
I.(J)/LG 2: if all 3 pilots had reported their aircraft hit the ground, and I could exclude that they all shot at the same aircraft of Lesniewski, so I would say that there is a black sheep under them. Why not?
So, why do you not do so?


I do not possess the original reports of the pilots of I./LG 2 engaged in this fight. So I don`t know if both of them saw their victims crash on the ground or not. So simple. On the other hand we know what Pniak originally reported and we know the German units and losses. So simple.


Quote:
Again you are refering to Pniak. You can be sure on 2.9. Pniak did not shot at the same aircraft as Lesniewski. Nevertheless he saw his victim crash on the ground.
The reasons of overclaim were often discussed on this forum. You still cannot identify the aircraft Pniak was firing at, however.


No, but I can surely exclude that the aircraft crashed on the ground. German documents do confirm this.


Quote:
According to German documents there was only 1 Bf 110 lost. This is confirmed not only by one, but by several documents: GQM loss list and Fliegerdivision 1 loss list. But also by Fliegerdivision 1 daily loss list, where 1 Bf 110 was reported lost until 16:00 hours. The same fact is reported by Prof. Trenel who during the war saw other documents (perhaps even the war diary of I./ZG 1).
Correct me, but I believe the aircraft that failed to return will not be listed as a loss until it is confirmed it not landed anywhere.


I will correct you again. It would be listed as missing. The only way I see - the aircraft force landed at base and remains damaged under 60%. Such things were not often listed in high staff documents. But nevertheless, for luck, I possess a Fliegerdivision 1 document with daily strenght and leaving (08:00 and 16:00 hours). I have proofed it and "leaving" means seriously damaged and lost aircraft also. For 2.9. I./ZG 1 16.00 hours you can read: 1 aircraft less. This is surely the lost aircraft of Müllenheim-Rehberg. This means also - there were no other aircraft lost or seriously damaged.


Quote:
I described above (with explanation of my wife) what Pniak reported on 4.9. On that day III./StG 2 lost only one aircraft which indeed crashed on the ground. Even Pawlak (Samotne zalogi, page 91) and Cynk (Polskie lotnictwo, page 241) confirm what I am talking about and what German documents are talking about. The authors wrote something about personal papers of Wilhelm Berschneider, exactly the pilot who fell in the crashed aircraft according to German documents.
You do not even know what they wrote. It is noted in the diary that some items were found on hte crashsite just near the airfield.


???!!!???
See Cynk - Polskie lotnictwo..., page 241. Found on the crash site: diploma of pilot Wilhelm Berschneider.


Quote:
So in 3 days Pniak reported about two aircraft he claimed shot down and which - as he described - in the result fell or crashed on the ground. Unfortunate accident? Do you think under Poles there was no one who could report after combat about things that never happened? Yes I see, one time the pilot could have seen too much. But two times in three days? I will call a little bit suspect.
Both claims were made in fierce dog-fights. Following your logic, we may call all the Jagdwaffe pilots blatant liars after their show in the Battle of Britain.


No, I only want to say that in every single air force (also in German Luftwaffe and others) you can find pilots who overcoloured their successes., perhaps even lied. Your problem is that you cannot imagine a Polish fighter pilot could have deliberately reported something he didn`t achieved. But the Poles are no "outsiders from space", also human beings as many others.
I mean it makes me really sad that such ace like Skalski, two years after the September 1939 campaign could have tried to rise his personal score of destroyed German aircraft with a colorized report. Perhaps I interpret it wrong, but at least we cannot exclude such a possibility.
On the other hand Skalski could better have reported he was not sure if he saw the aircraft even crashed (and we had no discussion here). So did many others and survived the war without any claimes. I know personally such a German Jagdflieger.

Marius

Franek Grabowski 25th August 2005 02:21

Re: German Claims in Poland 1939
 
Marius

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marius
Nevertheless, there is no other loss of a second Bf 110 or another aircraft. It is also possible that Skalski overcoloured the fate of the aircraft he shot at, similar to Pniak (?), yes, why not?

While Skalski's post war memories (about after 1960s) are a little bit faded and confused, there is no reason not to believe his wartime accounts. Generally he was considered a modest claimant and it was underlined by his friends and colleagues.
Finally, one point. Skalski was credited with the victory in 1939. He was not credited with the ones he clearly stated he saw no crash of enemy aircraft but the case of Ju 87, which was confirmed only after a report of ground troops.

Quote:

If we would accept two separate formations, so nevertheless no trace of bombers. The only solution I see: two squadrons of Bf 110`s of I./ZG 1. 3.Staffel as high cover and the other preparing for attacks on the ground. If Skalski attacked another aircraft than of 3.Staffel, so he surely overcoloured the result. All this only hypothetical.
Well, all I can comment here is that the aircraft attacked by Leśniewski and his section flew in 5 aircraft vic. This was a standard bomber formation. Some aircraft were seen to bomb Fordon and Vistula bridges. I am not awared of Me 110s capable to carry bombs at the time.

Quote:

I cannot exclude that Lesniewski and Skalski saw the same aircraft crash on the ground, when I will believe what Skalski wrote in the original report.
No, the combats and crashplaces reported were in quite a distance from each other.

Quote:

No, this wouldn`t be the aircraft Skalski shot at. An aircraft that force landed on enemy territory would have been reported as missing. They did not fight behind German lines.
The combat was just near the frontline. Skalski was chasing his second victim for a while, so it could have crashed on the German side or on the one that was soon captured.

Quote:

I never spoke about "bloody liars". The reports of Pniak for 2.9. and 4.9. are suspect in many matters. I think due to my research about these combats Polish historians could try - if they want - to research Pniak`s victories he claimed in England.
Claims in the Battle of Britain are usually hard to confirm. Of his record of 4,1/2-2-1,1/2 three aircraft may be confirmed as definetely destroyed - a Me 109 of 7./JG26 and two Fiat BR.20.

Quote:

I was researching for Oberst Henschke in German archives and I have found nothing.
But this does not mean the story is invented. Even if the rank or name were misunderstood, I see no reason to doubt that the glove was indeed found at the crashsite.

Quote:

???!!!???
If one Bf 110 was shot down and one man baled out and one man got into captivity and this man returned later to his unit and confirmed he was the one who baled out so what is here weak? The story is based on German documents, not only on the post-war account. As we know for sure Weng was the Bordfunker of Müllenheim-Rehberg. Any more questions?
By your standards it is just as weak as Skalski's report of 1941 or even weaker.

Quote:

The article about III/4 was send to Lotnictwo one year before it was published (!). In my answer to Cynk earlier this year I corrected my mistake with KG 3 and stated III/4 fought on 2.9. with I./ZG 1 only. Right?
I cannot tell when it was send, I know when it was published.

Quote:

It`s like a defensive circle... Okay, maybe two formations, but no trace of bombers. Possibly indeed two squadron`s of Bf 110`s of I./ZG 1. Furtheron only one loss of a Bf 110.
I would put that in other words. You have found only one loss of a Me 110. If it has been written this way, I would make no comment at all.

Quote:

???!!!???
So is there in the diary something like that: "twin-engined aircraft" or not?
The diary clearly states 30 Ju 87 and Do. Rolski's report says 18 Do 17, 18 Me 110 and 9 Ju 87. Twin engined aircraft are clearly mentioned.

Quote:

In Pniak`s report there is no trace of any type of aircraft. He saw seven "twin-engined aircraft" and when climbing to them he was attacked by 3 others which he describes as of the same type. So we know nothing. But German documents of III./StG 2 confirm the type written in the diary (Ju 87).
One of the types! Please note that no Me 109s were reported!

Quote:

By the way, Pniak could have seen a reconnaissance Do 17P and thought all the rest was of the same type. One or two Do 17P always flew with a Stuka formation to make target photos.
Poles reported more than one Do 17.

Quote:

The problem is nevertheless visible. According only to Polish documents we never could find out with what type of aircraft III/4 really fought. That is the point.
This applies to all combat reports. I have seen several guncam films and we have discussed one of them some time ago on this forum. Quite often I was unable to determine the type, depsite being quite knowledgeable on silhouettes and having plenty of time to look at them.

Quote:

Perhaps you could write here down what might be very important for the discussion? Until now I only heared many times that I didn`t read Polish reports and I didn`t read this and I didn`t read that and again I didn`t read Polish reports. What is so decisive in these Polish reports?
Decisive is the fact that you misquote them.

Quote:

Okay: combat flight for the 8. and 9./StG 2: 11:50-13:10
Based on?

Quote:

7./StG 2 and 1.(J)/LG 2 time not known, but later than 8. and 9.Staffel..
We know (Polish documents are confirming this) there were two engagements. First at appr. 12.30 (here was shot down the only Ju 87 of 9.Staffel) and the other combat appr. an hour later with much more aircraft of III/4 (see for example Cynk - Polskie lotnictwo..., page 240-244). Here Skalski damaged the Ju 87 of 7.Staffel of which one man baled out to his death. There is no doubt that Bf 109 pilots claimed here their 3 victories (one not confirmed).
Why there is no doubt if there were dogfights in the first combat? You do not have anything to support your thesis!

Quote:

Perhaps this occured now and then - exceptionally, but the general German fighter formations were: Rotte (2 aircraft) and Schwarm (4 aircraft). No doubt.
I may agree that the smallest formation was a pair but it does not mean anything in the bigger ones. German pilots later in the war often flew in uneven formations, how would it be possible in finger four formation? I would also suggest to read articles about tactics by Skalski and Bieńkowski, the latter recently published in Lotnictwo.

Quote:

My wife is native speaker and graduate of Polish philology.
Then you may tell her that I disagree. Fell down is not as definite as crashed, it may be falling down or fell down. Here I would rather read it in the way the aircraft went down and was in hopeless situation, rather than crashed. Especially as Cynk erroneously transcribed the report, which is very hard to read. Nonetheless it must have been considered a crashed aircraft, as the kill was credited.

Quote:

I do not possess the original reports of the pilots of I./LG 2 engaged in this fight. So I don`t know if both of them saw their victims crash on the ground or not. So simple. On the other hand we know what Pniak originally reported and we know the German units and losses. So simple.
I understand it was crucial in the German victory system to have witnesses confirming destruction(!) of an enemy aircraft. Apparently it did not happen as only one aircraft was lost, according to Poles due to Me 110 action.

Quote:

No, but I can surely exclude that the aircraft crashed on the ground. German documents do confirm this.
No, just only you have not found any loss.

Quote:

I will correct you again. It would be listed as missing. The only way I see - the aircraft force landed at base and remains damaged under 60%. Such things were not often listed in high staff documents. But nevertheless, for luck, I possess a Fliegerdivision 1 document with daily strenght and leaving (08:00 and 16:00 hours). I have proofed it and "leaving" means seriously damaged and lost aircraft also. For 2.9. I./ZG 1 16.00 hours you can read: 1 aircraft less. This is surely the lost aircraft of Müllenheim-Rehberg. This means also - there were no other aircraft lost or seriously damaged.
Well, the combat was at about 15:00. They knew one aircraft was lost but I see no point putting there an aircraft which was as yet neither reported to land or crash.

Quote:

???!!!???
See Cynk - Polskie lotnictwo..., page 241. Found on the crash site: diploma of pilot Wilhelm Berschneider.
And also ID plate from the aircraft plus some more other stuff. Polish documents are quite precise.

Quote:

No, I only want to say that in every single air force (also in German Luftwaffe and others) you can find pilots who overcoloured their successes., perhaps even lied. Your problem is that you cannot imagine a Polish fighter pilot could have deliberately reported something he didn`t achieved. But the Poles are no "outsiders from space", also human beings as many others.
Then, following your logic, every fighter pilot is a liar because overclaim exists. I see no reason to call anyone making a deliberate false claim, at least as long as I cannot prove it. I see nothing wrong when it is found that there was an overclaim on the Polish side but I would like to have it clearly explained, with accounts of witnesses of both sides, etc. I do not consider your research a clear one.

Quote:

I mean it makes me really sad that such ace like Skalski, two years after the September 1939 campaign could have tried to rise his personal score of destroyed German aircraft with a colorized report. Perhaps I interpret it wrong, but at least we cannot exclude such a possibility.
Skalski's scoreboard was not increased! He was credited with the kill already in 1939! When he was writing the report he was not awared his claim will be verified in any way. He just wrote a detalied report of his activities in Poland - have you read it? He wrote an additional report when the list of kills was published but this is another, not related story.

Quote:

On the other hand Skalski could better have reported he was not sure if he saw the aircraft even crashed (and we had no discussion here). So did many others and survived the war without any claimes. I know personally such a German Jagdflieger.
How do you know what he saw? Actually, I have went through his every air combat and I consider him a very reliable claimant, who was shooting from a moderate distance and rather not in great battles, where overclaim was considerably higher.

By the way, a photo of overturned P.11 in your book is of a well known camouflaged '3' crashed by Antoni Joda of 152 EM.

George Hopp 25th August 2005 03:13

Re: German Claims in Poland 1939
 
Keep up the good work, Marius. I hope we can get those two books of yours in either English or German some day.
All the best,
George

Marius 26th August 2005 00:58

Re: German Claims in Poland 1939
 
George,
many thanks! I hope so...


Franek,

Marius

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marius
Nevertheless, there is no other loss of a second Bf 110 or another aircraft. It is also possible that Skalski overcoloured the fate of the aircraft he shot at, similar to Pniak (?), yes, why not?

While Skalski's post war memories (about after 1960s) are a little bit faded and confused, there is no reason not to believe his wartime accounts. Generally he was considered a modest claimant and it was underlined by his friends and colleagues.
Finally, one point. Skalski was credited with the victory in 1939. He was not credited with the ones he clearly stated he saw no crash of enemy aircraft but the case of Ju 87, which was confirmed only after a report of ground troops.



No doubt, but the original combat report of 2.9.1939 and the later of 1941 have important differences according to the fate of the second "Do 17". In the first the attacked enemy aircraft flew away in formation with others - Skalski then gave up. In the report written in 1941 this same aircraft crashed on ground and kept fire! How will you explain that? I don`t wanna say Skalski coloured all clames he was credited with. But here is it more than clear. And you even don`t need here German documents. For the eventuality of proof by a commission (what indeed happened) it looks better when both attacked aircraft crashed on the ground. As a commissioner you must believe they were surely destroyed.


Quote:
If we would accept two separate formations, so nevertheless no trace of bombers. The only solution I see: two squadrons of Bf 110`s of I./ZG 1. 3.Staffel as high cover and the other preparing for attacks on the ground. If Skalski attacked another aircraft than of 3.Staffel, so he surely overcoloured the result. All this only hypothetical.
Well, all I can comment here is that the aircraft attacked by Leśniewski and his section flew in 5 aircraft vic. This was a standard bomber formation. Some aircraft were seen to bomb Fordon and Vistula bridges. I am not awared of Me 110s capable to carry bombs at the time.


The standard bomber formation was a Kette of 3 aircraft, not 5. A Squadron of I./ZG 1 started with 5 aircraft would also fly in a 5 aircraft vic formation. Perhaps it looked like bombs were falling somewhere, but sometimes pilots saw much to more things which in reality didn`t happened. For example Palusinski from Pursuit Brigade attacked on 1.9.1939 Bf 110`s of I.(Z)/LG 1 and saw how they dropped their bombs down on the fields !!


Quote:
I cannot exclude that Lesniewski and Skalski saw the same aircraft crash on the ground, when I will believe what Skalski wrote in the original report.
No, the combats and crashplaces reported were in quite a distance from each other.


Based on? Where exactly should both aircraft have crashed?
I don`t think so. When aircraft fly with performances between 300-400 km/h than 1 or 2 kilometres or more is no distance for them.


Quote:
No, this wouldn`t be the aircraft Skalski shot at. An aircraft that force landed on enemy territory would have been reported as missing. They did not fight behind German lines.
The combat was just near the frontline. Skalski was chasing his second victim for a while, so it could have crashed on the German side or on the one that was soon captured.


I repeat, no trace of a second crashed aircraft. You are going much too far here. There is nothing confirming that. Just a speculation without any serious detail.


Quote:
I was researching for Oberst Henschke in German archives and I have found nothing.
But this does not mean the story is invented. Even if the rank or name were misunderstood, I see no reason to doubt that the glove was indeed found at the crashsite.


I wrote about that in my book. No chance for Oberst Henschke. Gruppenkommandeur of I./JG 21 was a Major!
But there was an Uffz. Henschke of III.(K)/LG 1 lost to AA fire on 10.9. (the crew was later interned in Riga).


Quote:
???!!!???
If one Bf 110 was shot down and one man baled out and one man got into captivity and this man returned later to his unit and confirmed he was the one who baled out so what is here weak? The story is based on German documents, not only on the post-war account. As we know for sure Weng was the Bordfunker of Müllenheim-Rehberg. Any more questions?
By your standards it is just as weak as Skalski's report of 1941 or even weaker.


You are making here a big mistake. We discuss here about a loss of an aircraft and its crew, what really occured. And you are comparing this with a claim credited to a pilot. Even if a fighter pilot would claim 10 victories, we (as historians) must look to the documents on the other side and proof this. And maybe than you will not find any aircraft lost to the guns of this pilot, maybe you will find 5, or maybe all 10. But loss and claim is not the same.



Quote:
It`s like a defensive circle... Okay, maybe two formations, but no trace of bombers. Possibly indeed two squadron`s of Bf 110`s of I./ZG 1. Furtheron only one loss of a Bf 110.
I would put that in other words. You have found only one loss of a Me 110. If it has been written this way, I would make no comment at all.


The problem is the following; I am looking to the losses and say there was 1 German aircraft shot down by Polish fighters. Then I look who claimed the victory or how many victories were claimed and compare these informations (for 2.9. - according to German documents 1 German loss and according to Polish documents 7 victories).
You are operating the other way round. You are looking there are 7 claims (never officially proofed!) and if they all will not be confirmed by German documents you say that it cannot be true, German documents cannot be complete. And then you are beginning starting your fantastical theories how the Germans hided lost aircraft.
This is totally irrational, because Poland was defeated in a really short time and the air force leaved the country after 17 days of fighting. All the Polish claimes could not have been investigated by higher commands or whatever. The first and last try was made 1945 by the Bajan Commission. So the claimes never leaved the squadron or group level. Most of them were later surprisingly credited as confirmed (126 victories!!). But everybody knows that after the Polish campaign the pilots could colorize their reports (see Skalski) to make the claimes more weighty. The Bajan Commission was uncritical, but what other could it be? The fact that the claimes were not investigated makes it not easier. But you can be sure that at least 50% of them wouldn`t stand such an investigation. My research is confirming this. Maximum 50-60 victories are confirmed by German documents (totally destroyed and force-landings).


Quote:
???!!!???
So is there in the diary something like that: "twin-engined aircraft" or not?
The diary clearly states 30 Ju 87 and Do. Rolski's report says 18 Do 17, 18 Me 110 and 9 Ju 87. Twin engined aircraft are clearly mentioned.


First point: Do 17 and Ju 87 never flew together on target missions in Poland. Exceptionally against Warsaw where twin-engined bombers and Ju 87 operated one formation after another.
Second point: Also Me 109 and Me 110 never flew together - exceptionally again Warsaw, but only one time on 1.9.
Third Point: every bomber formation was escorted by one fighter or destroyer group (or Squadron). Me 109 and Me 110 never escorted together (one exception 1.9. Warsaw as above).
Do 17, Me 110 and Ju 87 (all together) in the war diary III/4 means only one: nothing! The pilots were not sure of the types, so the diarist noticed all that was claimed. Nothing unusual.
In the German war diaries you can find: Blenheims, Potez 63, Curtiss, Polish twin-engined fighters and so on. Even aircraft with RAF markings! All over Poland 1939!!



Quote:
In Pniak`s report there is no trace of any type of aircraft. He saw seven "twin-engined aircraft" and when climbing to them he was attacked by 3 others which he describes as of the same type. So we know nothing. But German documents of III./StG 2 confirm the type written in the diary (Ju 87).
One of the types! Please note that no Me 109s were reported!


They didn`t even knew how the Me 109 looked out! So how could they report of them?


Quote:
Perhaps you could write here down what might be very important for the discussion? Until now I only heared many times that I didn`t read Polish reports and I didn`t read this and I didn`t read that and again I didn`t read Polish reports. What is so decisive in these Polish reports?
Decisive is the fact that you misquote them.


Reading all Polish documents and reports and memories will not rise the German loss rate shot down by Polish fighters. No chance. The evidence is done here on the forum.
No doubt, as I will write a history of Polish squadrons in Poland 1939 I surely will visit London and read all documents needed.



Quote:
Okay: combat flight for the 8. and 9./StG 2: 11:50-13:10
Based on?


War diary III./StG 2 and a log book of a pilot of 8.Staffel.


Quote:
7./StG 2 and 1.(J)/LG 2 time not known, but later than 8. and 9.Staffel..
We know (Polish documents are confirming this) there were two engagements. First at appr. 12.30 (here was shot down the only Ju 87 of 9.Staffel) and the other combat appr. an hour later with much more aircraft of III/4 (see for example Cynk - Polskie lotnictwo..., page 240-244). Here Skalski damaged the Ju 87 of 7.Staffel of which one man baled out to his death. There is no doubt that Bf 109 pilots claimed here their 3 victories (one not confirmed).
Why there is no doubt if there were dogfights in the first combat? You do not have anything to support your thesis!


As I remember only 3 or 4 Polish fighters were up on 12:30. One hour later started appr. 10 PZL. Right?



Quote:
My wife is native speaker and graduate of Polish philology.
Then you may tell her that I disagree. Fell down is not as definite as crashed, it may be falling down or fell down. Here I would rather read it in the way the aircraft went down and was in hopeless situation, rather than crashed. Especially as Cynk erroneously transcribed the report, which is very hard to read. Nonetheless it must have been considered a crashed aircraft, as the kill was credited.


A combat report is not a kind of prose and the pilot no prose writer, but just a simple pilot. I think you interpret much to much in every single word. Just after combat the pilots didn`t reflected on the words they choose. This is also the reason that Skalski wrote about shooting at the German pilot who hang under his parachute on 3.9. Just how it really was. Later he changed his mind and after the war "forgot" it completely.


Quote:
I do not possess the original reports of the pilots of I./LG 2 engaged in this fight. So I don`t know if both of them saw their victims crash on the ground or not. So simple. On the other hand we know what Pniak originally reported and we know the German units and losses. So simple.
I understand it was crucial in the German victory system to have witnesses confirming destruction(!) of an enemy aircraft. Apparently it did not happen as only one aircraft was lost, according to Poles due to Me 110 action.


But it doesn`t mean the pilot or the witness had to see the crash of the enemy aircraft. By the way Skalski wouldn`t be credited with any claim on 2.9. because he had no witnesses. I cannot understand that both claims were later confirmed by the Bajan Commission based on his colourized report only - without a witness.
I think the German system was much better. For example on 4.9. I.(J)/LG 2 had one unconfirmed claim (of 3). III./StG 2 claimed 3-4 victories. They all were later reduced to "damaged" (!!). On the other on side on 2.9. the Poles claimed 7 Do 17 in one combat. All 7 claims remained confirmed until day.


Quote:
No, but I can surely exclude that the aircraft crashed on the ground. German documents do confirm this.
No, just only you have not found any loss.


???!!!???
Have you found the German loss which confirms your fata morgana claims?


Quote:
I will correct you again. It would be listed as missing. The only way I see - the aircraft force landed at base and remains damaged under 60%. Such things were not often listed in high staff documents. But nevertheless, for luck, I possess a Fliegerdivision 1 document with daily strenght and leaving (08:00 and 16:00 hours). I have proofed it and "leaving" means seriously damaged and lost aircraft also. For 2.9. I./ZG 1 16.00 hours you can read: 1 aircraft less. This is surely the lost aircraft of Müllenheim-Rehberg. This means also - there were no other aircraft lost or seriously damaged.
Well, the combat was at about 15:00. They knew one aircraft was lost but I see no point putting there an aircraft which was as yet neither reported to land or crash.


This is only one document among others. Your argumentation is like a cementation.


Quote:
???!!!???
See Cynk - Polskie lotnictwo..., page 241. Found on the crash site: diploma of pilot Wilhelm Berschneider.
And also ID plate from the aircraft plus some more other stuff. Polish documents are quite precise.


This one yes, why not? There are even more, but not all.


Quote:
No, I only want to say that in every single air force (also in German Luftwaffe and others) you can find pilots who overcoloured their successes., perhaps even lied. Your problem is that you cannot imagine a Polish fighter pilot could have deliberately reported something he didn`t achieved. But the Poles are no "outsiders from space", also human beings as many others.
Then, following your logic, every fighter pilot is a liar because overclaim exists. I see no reason to call anyone making a deliberate false claim, at least as long as I cannot prove it. I see nothing wrong when it is found that there was an overclaim on the Polish side but I would like to have it clearly explained, with accounts of witnesses of both sides, etc. I do not consider your research a clear one.


No, not everybody. But I cannot maintain all human beings are sincere and all is perfectly. Skalski`s both reports is the best proof you are searching for. And known German documents are confirming he had colourized his claims.
My research is surely not perfectly, but based on many documents and many years of intensive study. Not the German documents are weak, but you, because you are blinded in what you want to see.


Quote:
I mean it makes me really sad that such ace like Skalski, two years after the September 1939 campaign could have tried to rise his personal score of destroyed German aircraft with a colorized report. Perhaps I interpret it wrong, but at least we cannot exclude such a possibility.
Skalski's scoreboard was not increased! He was credited with the kill already in 1939! When he was writing the report he was not awared his claim will be verified in any way. He just wrote a detalied report of his activities in Poland - have you read it? He wrote an additional report when the list of kills was published but this is another, not related story.


Who officially credited Skalski with the kill on 2.9.? And who credited him with the second kill on 2.9.?
My dear, it is clear that everything you do and everything you sign can be verified one day. But otherwise why not to try report more claims when nobody saw your combat? Perhaps it comes through... and you will be an ace and famous...


Quote:
On the other hand Skalski could better have reported he was not sure if he saw the aircraft even crashed (and we had no discussion here). So did many others and survived the war without any claimes. I know personally such a German Jagdflieger.
How do you know what he saw? Actually, I have went through his every air combat and I consider him a very reliable claimant, who was shooting from a moderate distance and rather not in great battles, where overclaim was considerably higher.


Yes, maybe, I do not say he colourized everything in his life. But it has to be said where he may done it and where it is obviously.
What about the photo of a Bf 110 you shortly wrote?

Marius

Marcel Hogenhuis 26th August 2005 13:05

Re: Hans Weng bailing out
 
Hello Marius, hello Franek,

First my compliments for having such a wonderful and interesting discussion!!! How often such discussions become a dog fight where not the weight of arguments count, but the desire to be the winner of the discussion whatever the evidence available may tell us... I do sincerely hope, that you will continue to exchange arguments and (perhaps) accepting alternative options.

Well, I do have an account, written in May 1945 by the former Waffenmeister H.Stahn who was in the I.ZG 1 as well before it became the nucleus of I.NJG 1.
Stahn also refers to HANS WENG and his bailing out and even adds the following: WENG quickly dismounted a MG from the crippled Bf110, took some ammunition and jumped. Thus he was able to return safely to his unit.
At least this small detail tells us that whatever story WENG told AFTER the war, the basics were already written down in May 1945.

All the best, Marcel Hogenhuis (Venlo airfield in WW-2, I.NJG 1, Nachtjagd)

Franek Grabowski 26th August 2005 14:30

Re: German Claims in Poland 1939
 
Marius

Please, do not write about the things, you have no slightest idea about!

Quote:

No doubt, but the original combat report of 2.9.1939 and the later of 1941 have important differences according to the fate of the second "Do 17". In the first the attacked enemy aircraft flew away in formation with others - Skalski then gave up. In the report written in 1941 this same aircraft crashed on ground and kept fire! How will you explain that?
Apparently your math knowledge is lacking. Is that deficiency of a German education system?
Could you explain me how a formation of approx. 9-11, attacked by Skalski who claimed 2 and according to you - 1 aircraft, could have been reduced to 5? For me 9-2=7. Even if we assume that Skalski was wrong and attacked the same formation as the others, this means at least 3 aircraft dissapeared from the formation - were downed.
The point is, however, that all known accounts of Skalski: 1939 report, 1941 report and 1957 memoirs describe the events in the same way and clearly indicate the 5 aircraft formation was a completely different one. It is only your problem that you cannot understand this.

Quote:

I don`t wanna say Skalski coloured all clames he was credited with. But here is it more than clear. And you even don`t need here German documents. For the eventuality of proof by a commission (what indeed happened) it looks better when both attacked aircraft crashed on the ground. As a commissioner you must believe they were surely destroyed.
The Bajan Commission was established on 15.12.1944, more than three years since Skalski filed his report. Could you explain, how could he know a few years earlier, that victories will be scrutinised?

Quote:

The standard bomber formation was a Kette of 3 aircraft, not 5.
Kette is not vic! In my reply published in Lotnictwo you have a refference to a source detailing German bomber formations of the period. I see you are not only lacking a basic information about German tactics but also have not read my reply.

Quote:

A Squadron of I./ZG 1 started with 5 aircraft would also fly in a 5 aircraft vic formation. Perhaps it looked like bombs were falling somewhere, but sometimes pilots saw much to more things which in reality didn`t happened. For example Palusinski from Pursuit Brigade attacked on 1.9.1939 Bf 110`s of I.(Z)/LG 1 and saw how they dropped their bombs down on the fields !!
Please note exactly in which account Palusiński claims he saw falling bombs!!!

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Based on?
Once again, personal combat reports filed after the combat.

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Where exactly should both aircraft have crashed?
Skalski - Chełmża Unisław area, Leśniewski - Grudziądz area.

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I don`t think so. When aircraft fly with performances between 300-400 km/h than 1 or 2 kilometres or more is no distance for them.
They completely separated and were unable to reform. With such a performances they can easily fly into a different directions and in quite a distance.

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I repeat, no trace of a second crashed aircraft. You are going much too far here. There is nothing confirming that. Just a speculation without any serious detail.
As yet I see speculations on your side. Can you provide me WNrs of lost aircraft?

Quote:

I wrote about that in my book. No chance for Oberst Henschke. Gruppenkommandeur of I./JG 21 was a Major!
G/C Pawlikowski downed on 15.05.1943 had a higher rank than W/C with whom he flew. He was not even a pilot of the Wing!

Quote:

But there was an Uffz. Henschke of III.(K)/LG 1 lost to AA fire on 10.9. (the crew was later interned in Riga).
Oh, I see we are discussing another dimension. Apparently Uffz. Henschke lost his Handschue over Eastern Poland and the wind blew it to Warsaw, where it landed 10 days before being lost, among a remains of a wreck. Reverse passing of time caused Henschke was promoted to Oberst! Be serious.

Quote:

You are making here a big mistake. We discuss here about a loss of an aircraft and its crew, what really occured. And you are comparing this with a claim credited to a pilot. Even if a fighter pilot would claim 10 victories, we (as historians) must look to the documents on the other side and proof this. And maybe than you will not find any aircraft lost to the guns of this pilot, maybe you will find 5, or maybe all 10. But loss and claim is not the same.
Claim really occured and was really confirmed. I have copies of documents and I am not doing any mistake.

Quote:

The problem is the following; I am looking to the losses and say there was 1 German aircraft shot down by Polish fighters. Then I look who claimed the victory or how many victories were claimed and compare these informations (for 2.9. - according to German documents 1 German loss and according to Polish documents 7 victories).
You are operating the other way round. You are looking there are 7 claims (never officially proofed!) and if they all will not be confirmed by German documents you say that it cannot be true, German documents cannot be complete. And then you are beginning starting your fantastical theories how the Germans hided lost aircraft.
Yup, one of my such fantastical theories is a Fighter Command report stating that on the developed film a parachuting German airman can be clearly seen. German documents of the very same combat mention there were no losses. In similar fashion, I have found a German pilot downed by Poles, the loss being not mentioned in documents, despite of his wounds. Not 1939 related but shows the problem.

Quote:

This is totally irrational, because Poland was defeated in a really short time and the air force leaved the country after 17 days of fighting. All the Polish claimes could not have been investigated by higher commands or whatever. The first and last try was made 1945 by the Bajan Commission. So the claimes never leaved the squadron or group level. Most of them were later surprisingly credited as confirmed (126 victories!!). But everybody knows that after the Polish campaign the pilots could colorize their reports (see Skalski) to make the claimes more weighty. The Bajan Commission was uncritical, but what other could it be? The fact that the claimes were not investigated makes it not easier. But you can be sure that at least 50% of them wouldn`t stand such an investigation.
Approx. 50% overclaim ratio is not a bad result but as I noted, your research is too sloppy to be regarded seriously.

Quote:

My research is confirming this. Maximum 50-60 victories are confirmed by German documents (totally destroyed and force-landings).
It is a different number than previously mentioned.

Quote:

First point: Do 17 and Ju 87 never flew together on target missions in Poland. Exceptionally against Warsaw where twin-engined bombers and Ju 87 operated one formation after another.
Second point: Also Me 109 and Me 110 never flew together - exceptionally again Warsaw, but only one time on 1.9.
Third Point: every bomber formation was escorted by one fighter or destroyer group (or Squadron). Me 109 and Me 110 never escorted together (one exception 1.9. Warsaw as above).
Do 17, Me 110 and Ju 87 (all together) in the war diary III/4 means only one: nothing! The pilots were not sure of the types, so the diarist noticed all that was claimed. Nothing unusual.
Excellent! You have just provided me with supporting thesis to support my point of view. It is apparent the first attacj was done by Ju 87 with Me 109s and due to heavy opposition, another formation of Ju 87 was send, this time with Me 110s. Everything fits perfectly.

Quote:

In the German war diaries you can find: Blenheims, Potez 63, Curtiss, Polish twin-engined fighters and so on. Even aircraft with RAF markings! All over Poland 1939!!
And you dare to claim the German accounts and documents are rliable?

Quote:

They didn`t even knew how the Me 109 looked out! So how could they report of them?
No, according to your logic, there were no 109s in this combat. No Dorniers nor 110s as well. Only Stukas.

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Reading all Polish documents and reports and memories will not rise the German loss rate shot down by Polish fighters. No chance. The evidence is done here on the forum.
I am not doing any evidence, I am a historian.

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No doubt, as I will write a history of Polish squadrons in Poland 1939 I surely will visit London and read all documents needed.
It would be good if you try to read published sources. I see you have problems even with this.

Quote:

War diary III./StG 2 and a log book of a pilot of 8.Staffel.
So KTB does not mention separate missions that are clearly confirmed by Polish documents. Hence we may consider this German document as inaccurate. If KTB of III/StG 2 is inaccurate, how can we be sure that other documents of this and other units are correct?

Quote:

As I remember only 3 or 4 Polish fighters were up on 12:30. One hour later started appr. 10 PZL. Right?
3, so what?

Quote:

A combat report is not a kind of prose and the pilot no prose writer, but just a simple pilot. I think you interpret much to much in every single word. Just after combat the pilots didn`t reflected on the words they choose.
Pniak in his report clearly states he did not see crash of the German aircraft. It is not my interpretation. He says more less: I saw the German aircraft falling on the wood and I did not care about him anymore. Simple and lear and if you cannot understand this, perhaps it is the time to see a doc.

Quote:

This is also the reason that Skalski wrote about shooting at the German pilot who hang under his parachute on 3.9. Just how it really was. Later he changed his mind and after the war "forgot" it completely.
This was explained in a letter to Lotnictwo. Skalski did not forget the event and described it in detail. When asked about those suppositions, he was really surprised. 'Why I should do this?' In any way, I expect an answer, how an airman hit by a 7,92 Mauser rifle bullet and clearly bleeding, was able to run?

Quote:

But it doesn`t mean the pilot or the witness had to see the crash of the enemy aircraft. By the way Skalski wouldn`t be credited with any claim on 2.9. because he had no witnesses. I cannot understand that both claims were later confirmed by the Bajan Commission based on his colourized report only - without a witness.
How do you know a witness was necessary? I have never seen any document concerning crediting victories in 1939.

Quote:

I think the German system was much better. For example on 4.9. I.(J)/LG 2 had one unconfirmed claim (of 3).
And none actually downed - 7:1 is still better ratio than 3:0.

Quote:

III./StG 2 claimed 3-4 victories. They all were later reduced to "damaged" (!!).
Excellent - another proof of my thesis. Any names of victorious pilots?

Quote:

On the other on side on 2.9. the Poles claimed 7 Do 17 in one combat. All 7 claims remained confirmed until day.
As all the victories confirmed during WWII.

Quote:

???!!!???
Have you found the German loss which confirms your fata morgana claims?
I am not looking for it but I clearly see that your documents do not allow to exclude anything. Could you provide me with full crew list of the ZG1 airmen taking part in the battle?

Quote:

This is only one document among others. Your argumentation is like a cementation.
So list the documents, as yet you failed to do so. Cynk lists Polish documents and gives their refference nos.

Quote:

This one yes, why not? There are even more, but not all.
Quite interesting. Variable reliability.

Quote:

No, not everybody. But I cannot maintain all human beings are sincere and all is perfectly. Skalski`s both reports is the best proof you are searching for. And known German documents are confirming he had colourized his claims.
Apart of your unfounded accusations toward Skalski, what are the German documents? Could you list them at last?

Quote:

My research is surely not perfectly, but based on many documents and many years of intensive study. Not the German documents are weak, but you, because you are blinded in what you want to see.
Certainly.

Quote:

Who officially credited Skalski with the kill on 2.9.? And who credited him with the second kill on 2.9.?
Likely płk.pil. Bolesław Stachoń, commander of aviation and air defence of Pomorze Army.

Quote:

My dear, it is clear that everything you do and everything you sign can be verified one day. But otherwise why not to try report more claims when nobody saw your combat? Perhaps it comes through... and you will be an ace and famous...
I think at the moment it is you who try to be famous. I am more interested in what had actually happenned.

Quote:

Yes, maybe, I do not say he colourized everything in his life. But it has to be said where he may done it and where it is obviously.
If he was not doing that trough the whole war, why should he do that in this one, relatively unimportant dog-fight? He had multiple occasions to increase his scoreboard but he did not.

Quote:

What about the photo of a Bf 110 you shortly wrote?
I have checked that it is of the same ZG1 aircraft that is in your book but wrongly captioned.

The discussion with you is a quite interesting experience. Your approach is that you know better what is written in documents I have in my hands and in my mother tongue.
Finally, I would like to ask you to fuck off from Skalski. He passed away and cannot defend himself and with his deeds and fate he really does not deserve such treatment.

Marius 26th August 2005 16:01

Re: German Claims in Poland 1939
 
Franek,
stay cool! I don`t want to attack anybody. I only want to say, Skalski had evidently colorized the later report - so the question is how many else did (is a generous problem to all nationalities). Nobody is perfect!
Will answer in a few days, because I have no much time now.

According to the Bf 110 on the photo. I suppose it was the aircraft flown by Major Huth transferring with his unit to Griesslienen on the 4.9. The Bordfunker Josef Schauster was talking about this accident in Jägerblatt many years ago. The damage is indeed considerable. And apparently the aircraft was on fire as stated by Schauster.

You believe that I./ZG 1 lost on 2.9. more aircraft than found in the actual known documents. So how will you explain the only total loss of 12 Bf 110 for the period September 1939 as documented on many other staff levels?
I will list these aircraft below (total losses):
2.9. 1 Bf 110 of I./ZG 1, 2 Bf 110 of I./ZG 76
3.9. 3 Bf 110 of I.(Z)/LG 1 (1 to German Flak)
4.9. 1 Bf 110 of I.(Z)/LG 1, 1 Bf 110 of I./ZG 1 (Huth landing accident)
6.9. 1 Bf 110 of I./ZG 1
7.9. 1 Bf 110 of I.(Z)/LG 1
9.9. 1 Bf 110 of I./ZG 76 (accident?)
17.9. 1 Bf 110 of I./ZG 76

12 at all, 3 in accidents or by friendly AA fire. No place for more totally destroyed Bf 110`s.

Marius

Franek Grabowski 27th August 2005 00:51

Re: German Claims in Poland 1939
 
Marius

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marius
stay cool! I don`t want to attack anybody. I only want to say, Skalski had evidently colorized the later report - so the question is how many else did (is a generous problem to all nationalities). Nobody is perfect!

Skalski over the war never colourised his reports. All his claims, but two - one damaged and one probable, from the Battle of Britain can be linked to the German losses. His later claims cannot be all verified because of losses of documents on the German side. There are several his 'claims' that were not claimed by him due to lack of evidence, I think a total of about five or more aircraft. One Skalski's claim was downgraded although it seems it is confirmed by the German losses. Another was not credited to him by no apparent reason.
A very important point is that all the reports filed in 1939 are the reports done just after the sorties. Most of the surviving ones, eg. from RAF or USAAF that are known to researchers were wrote by IOs a few days after actual sorties. There is no comparison.

Quote:

According to the Bf 110 on the photo. I suppose it was the aircraft flown by Major Huth transferring with his unit to Griesslienen on the 4.9. The Bordfunker Josef Schauster was talking about this accident in Jägerblatt many years ago. The damage is indeed considerable. And apparently the aircraft was on fire as stated by Schauster.
The photo does not show any trace of fire. It shows considerable damage to the fuselage but I cannot say it was enough to consider it as a write off.

Quote:

You believe that I./ZG 1 lost on 2.9. more aircraft than found in the actual known documents. So how will you explain the only total loss of 12 Bf 110 for the period September 1939 as documented on many other staff levels?
I do not believe anything. I expect you to nail down the aircraft shot up by Skalski. As long as you cannot do it, I do no take your comments that nothing happenned to it.

Quote:

I will list these aircraft below (total losses):
2.9. 1 Bf 110 of I./ZG 1, 2 Bf 110 of I./ZG 76
3.9. 3 Bf 110 of I.(Z)/LG 1 (1 to German Flak)
4.9. 1 Bf 110 of I.(Z)/LG 1, 1 Bf 110 of I./ZG 1 (Huth landing accident)
6.9. 1 Bf 110 of I./ZG 1
7.9. 1 Bf 110 of I.(Z)/LG 1
9.9. 1 Bf 110 of I./ZG 76 (accident?)
17.9. 1 Bf 110 of I./ZG 76
12 at all, 3 in accidents or by friendly AA fire. No place for more totally destroyed Bf 110`s.
How about aircraft of Hammes and Nagel? Were they write offs or not? Hammes' aircraft looks almost untouched, I have seen more damaged aircraft returned to flying condition.
There is also a photo of burned out Me 110 taken from an overflying aircraft, have you identified this one?

Pawel Burchard 27th August 2005 13:44

Re: German Claims in Poland 1939
 
Hello Marius,

Today I acquired your 'Luftwaffe over Poland. Kampfflieger' — interesting reading without doubt. After first look I just would like to point on two details unclear to me.

Firstly there are photos of Do 17 bombers after text page 83 claimed to be 17Ms from I./K.G. 2 — the a/c on top photograph is Do 17Z without any doubt. On the photo below depcting a/c tail there is W.Nr. 1134 - a bit unclear on repro but as you have the original I assume it is indeed 1134 — according to loss reports 1134 was a Do 17Z (lost in February 1941 while with 4./K.G. 2).

Secondly, there is a report (p. 290) on crash (100%) of Do 17Z W.Nr. 1176 from Wekusta 76. Could you please confirm that above W.Nr. is not a typo because there are sources claiming 1176 was shot down 15-Sep-40 over England.

Congratulations for the extensive work,
Pawel Burchard

G. Warrener 28th August 2005 21:16

Re: German Claims in Poland 1939
 
Hello

I only received Cz II yesterday (herzlichen Dank) so I have not had much time to read it, and have it undermine everything I have accepted to date....

With any bombing - there will always be the matter of collateral damage.
The bombs which fell on the Villa Centros at Anin-Otwock on the 1 Sept, 1939 killed 7 children and injured 25 more. They were Jewish & handicapped.

Their future had ceased on 1st September 1939 - despite the Luftwaffe.

Graham

Dénes Bernád 29th August 2005 04:58

Re: German Claims in Poland 1939
 
Is this one of the Bf 110s damaged over Poland in Sept. 1939 (from eBay)?
http://www.fotobethge.de/bilderebay/L19085-19.jpg

Franek Grabowski 29th August 2005 08:21

Re: German Claims in Poland 1939
 
Graham
Quote:

I only received Cz II yesterday (herzlichen Dank) so I have not had much time to read it, and have it undermine everything I have accepted to date....

With any bombing - there will always be the matter of collateral damage.
The bombs which fell on the Villa Centros at Anin-Otwock on the 1 Sept, 1939 killed 7 children and injured 25 more. They were Jewish & handicapped.

Their future had ceased on 1st September 1939 - despite the Luftwaffe.
For many the future ceased on 1.09.1939. For those currently living in Poland too.
I suppose your comment was provoked by the claim Luftwaffe never bombed civilian targets. Obviously, family flats were not the ones.

Dénes
Quote:

Is this one of the Bf 110s damaged over Poland in Sept. 1939 (from eBay)?
It is 2N+IH of Maj. Hammes downed on 6.09.1939 over Warsaw. According to Marius it is 100% loss but for me it is almost undamaged and likely was repaired and thus should not be included in a total of 12 Me 110 written off in the Polish Campaign.

Andreas Brekken 29th August 2005 10:32

Re: German Claims in Poland 1939
 
Hi, Franek

Interesting comment You had in a recent post regarding Skalski...

I guess that this is a one-way street, then, since most of the German pilots which exploits You are constantly doubting using quite harsh words and carateristics are also dead. The same goes for the guys that constructed and fought in the Soviet airforce, and their equipment. You seem to have no problem with this.

My thought was always that we should treat deceased fighting men we study on either side with respect, but You see this in an other way?

Regards,
Andreas

Franek Grabowski 29th August 2005 10:59

Re: German Claims in Poland 1939
 
Andreas
There is a difference between discussion about exploits, level of training or technical development and calling someone liar or murderer. The latter goes to a court - see how it ended with a certain French ace for example. Mr Emmerling constantly uses a offensive language towards the Polish airmen, not only Skalski. It is not a matter of finding any overclaim, different view, poor training, etc. but calling them liars, cowards and murderers in those or another words. Please, have in mind that you cannot read the articles, as Mr Emmerling published them in Polish.

Andreas Brekken 29th August 2005 15:42

Re: German Claims in Poland 1939
 
Hi, Franek.

Please look into Your previous postings on this board and try to see them with a clear eye:

On one hand the rest of the research community(with this Marius which I do not know but is clearly trying to back his work up with documentation included) are told to fuck off from making questions on the validity of claims and losses when certain Polish pilots are involved, on the other this is a right You have with regards to German pilots especially.

I do not mean to be harsh with You, but an eyewitness account is an eyewitness account, nothing more, and cannot really be used as a single standing evidence without a form of material backup. It really does not matter if the person You or others have interviewed are men of honor, their story is only their own perception of what happened.

I know for a fact, from earlier work experience, that an eyewitness account can be VERY far from a description of what really happened, and the accuracy will deteriorate with factors such as stress (fright, cold conditions, hot conditions, etc etc etc etc), that You are tired, that You are experiencing physical pain, that You are hungry, thirsty, that You are using stimulants such as metamphetamin and I could go on for a long time on further factors and combinations of these. I am quite sure that any pilot flying in a combat situation will suffer from at least one of these conditions, most likely from a combination of a number of them.

Please, Franek, I am not by any means stating that any Polish pilot or fighting man is a liar or anything else, only that we have to try to find some pieces of PHYSICAL evidence in our work, to substantiate the very interesting and colourful personal accounts we have from the participants.

If we (I am now talking about the community that are interesting in telling the gripping story of the WWII air war) could agree (in UTOPIA maybe :) ) to maybe stop focusing on making heroes or villains, and start to work on substantiating the recollections of the combatants with documentation, the story would be maybe a bit less colourful, but a heck of a lot more truthful.

(I am of course talking about all kinds of documentation and hard evidence. A dataplate from a Bf 110, or in your case two would make this discussion a whole lot easier :) )

Regards,
Andreas

Franek Grabowski 29th August 2005 16:48

Re: German Claims in Poland 1939
 
Andreas
You do not understand!
The point is not about possible overclaim but about making false claims.
Mr Emmerling accusses Skalski of making false claim in 1941 that resulted in crediting him with an extra victory. This is a very strong accusation, which perhaps should end up in a court, especially as Mr Emmerling is not going to understand that Skalski was credited with the victory in question already in 1939. He is also not going to understand, that original Polish reports of 1939 were written in haste, are not clear and sometimes are confusing. His knowledge of Polish seems also to leave much to desire - he clearly does not understand what is written in the Polish documents.
It looks like there is a white card lying on a table but the man is saying it is black.
ID plates of any aircraft have nothing to it.
You ask for evidence.
In my reply to an article in Lotnictwo that covered combats of III/4 Dywizjon, I have included about 40 footnotes reffering to particular documents (with ref. nos), mostly originating from 1939. Mr Emmerling called them worthless.
To turn it into your categories, a certain Norwegian pilot returned with a Spitfire damaged by bits flying off a destroyed Fw 190. IIRC there is no fitting German loss. How would you feel if the pilot was called a liar, who invented the story just to cover up damage to his aircraft, possibly achieved in an accident due to low flying?

Andreas Brekken 30th August 2005 10:44

Re: German Claims in Poland 1939
 
Hi, Franek.

I would feel that unless there was a corresponding German loss recorded, his claim would be only that, and not IN ANY CASE an established truth. This is just being scientific, and not biased! We cannot take such a claim or personal record as more than a STARTING POINT for validating by research that the perception of the events were correct. This goes for all sides, something You are very good at mentioning when the inferior german and russian pilots are discussed, which in Your opinion are all overrated anyhow ;) .

There should be no reason to discuss the difficulties in establishing such correspondance between claims and losses, and in my opinion it is only interesting as an colourful footnote to the history. For some reason a lot of people are totally hung up on number of kills and claims, and others on making a point of ridiculing or mistrust these 'scores', guess it is a bit of a baseball card mentality, and a need to have 'heroes' of some kind.

'Bits flying off an aircraft' is not enough to make a claim, and certainly not to claim an aircraft destroyed.... in that case the tally of the RVT german fighter pilots would be A LOT HIGHER...

I have as You probably know not followed Yours and Marius discussions in the mentioned journal. Maybe it would help if You guys could quote the original material You use with references also here? (The original text in Polish would certainly also help, as this would make the rest of us able to read what the original text says. No problem getting a native pole to translate for me at least, I have friends that can do it for me). This should then only be a cut and paset job from Your earlier discussions.

Does Your Polish documents contain a description of the wrecks as they were located after the battle? I do not know to what detail the original Polish documents describe the wrecks, but I would guess that they at least contain a description of tactical markings, engine and or WNr etc of the wrecks. This could then be a starting point for further research.

Regards,
Andreas


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