Polikarpov I-16 top ace - Vasilii Golubyev ?
 

Hello there Gentlemen,

one of the most difficult tasks in airwar enthusiasm is determining the I-16 top ace. Possible candidates are Shestakov, Muravitzkiy and Pilipenko.
Lately, I concentrated on Vasilii Golubyev.
The following two wonderful websites are quite helpful:
http://www.cieldegloire.com/015_golubyev_v_f.php
http://airaces.narod.ru/all1/golubev.htm
Unfortunately, none of them features a full list of Golubyev's 39+12sh kills and the kills indicated match only loosely :-(
I tried to merge the two lists and indeed a 51-kill list evolved:
1. 28.06.1941 Ju 88
2. 11.07.1941 Bf 109
3. 26.07.1941 Bf 109
4. 1/6 11.08.1941 Bf 109
5. 11.08.1941 Bf 110
6. 1/2 14./15.10.1941 Ju 88
7. 24.10.1941 I-153
8. 24.10.1941 I-153
9. 1/2 24.10.1941 Bulldog
10. 1/2 01./02.11.1941 Hurricane
11. 02.11.1941 Hurricane
12. 07.12.1941 Bf 110
13. 12.12.1941 Ju 88
14. Dez 41 He 111
15. 21.12.1941 Bf 109
16. 27.12.1941 Ju 87
17. 12.03.1942 Bf 109
18. 12.03.1942 Bf 109
19. 1/6 12.03.1942 Hs 126
20. 13.03.1942 Bf 110
21. 14.03.1942 Bf 109
22. 19.03.1942 Ju 88
23. 1/6 19.03.1942 He 111
24. 1/2 31.03.1942 Bf 109
25. 21.04.1942 Ju 88
26. 1/3 16.05.1942 Ju 88
27. 16.05.1942 Bf 109
28. 28.05.1942 He 111
29. 1/2 28.05.1942 He 111
30. 29.05.1942 Ju 87
31. 1/4 29./30.05.1942 Ju 87
32. 03.06.1942 Bf 109
33. 10.01.1943 Fw 190
34. 12.01.1943 Bf 109
35. 15.01.1943 Fw 190
36. 02.04.1943 Bf 109
37. 13./14.04.1943 Fw 190
38. 15.04.1943 G.50bis
39. 21.04.1943 G.50bis
40. 21.04.1943 G.50bis
41. 28.05.1943 Bf 109
42. 28./29.05.1943 Ju 88
43. 29.05.1943 Ju 88
44. 29.05.1943 Ju 88
45. 02.06.1943 Fw 190
46. 20.08.1943 Brewster
47. 20.08.1943 Brewster
48. 06./07.02.1944 Bf 110
49. 23./24.02.1944 Bf 110
50. 05.03.1944 Fw 190
51. 28.06.1944 Fw 190

However, it features only 10 of his 12 shared kills. Could anybody please help me to identify the other two shares ?

Have a nice Tuesday,

Michael

Re: Polikarpov I-16 top ace - Vasilii Golubyev ?
 

Hi,

i have:

12.03.42 Destroyed Me 109F I-16 4 Gu IAP-KBF WkNr 8347 Oberfeldwebel Robert Behr (4./JG 54)
12.03.42 Destroyed Me 109F I-16 4 Gu IAP-KBF WkNr 8997 del Unteroffizier Hans Schwarzkopf (1./JG 54).

from: http://www.rkka.es/Otros_articulos/2...1_arcitulo.htm

it's in Spanish language and i really don't know if the info is totally reliable....

regards

Re: Polikarpov I-16 top ace - Vasilii Golubyev ?
 

Hello GMichalski,

you're right. The incident is described in the OSPREY volume by Maslov. It's also depicted on its cover.
Strangely, this books indicates 19 I-16 kills for Golubyev, whereas Polak in STALIN'S FALCONS reports his Jun41-Jan43 kills to have been scored in the I-16. This would add up to 35 kills in my list, including at least 10 shared.

Have a very nice Friday,

Michael

Re: Polikarpov I-16 top ace - Vasilii Golubyev ?
 

hi, knusel, lemme try to answer it ;)
those victory claims from the link (http://airaces.narod.ru/all1/golubev.htm) u quoted r actually from the book "Победы сталинских соколов"(Victories of Stalin's Falcons) by Mikhail Bykov, published in 2008. but little might u know that Bykov amended part of contents and a revised copy got published in 2014, which is called "Все асы Сталина" (All aces of Stalin). and in his new book, Vasiliy Golubyev's claims were 17+15. and another fact clarified from this book is the fighter type once he used: 6/41-2/42 was I-16 and 2/42-5/45 were I-16, La-5, La-7.
and here's the complete list from that book uploaded to the attachement. hope it helped to u
regards from shanghai

Re: Polikarpov I-16 top ace - Vasilii Golubyev ?
 

Dear Stukapilot,

thanks for that helpful input.
I didn't know that airaces.narod.ru bases on Bykov's work.
I've studied the list you attached and found that the listed kills add up to 17+16sh, not 17+15sh as indicated.
At home, I merged the victory dates of that list together with the dates given by Polak, Maslov and airaces.narod.ru. => The sum ist 48+18sh, which indicates that some dates might be wrong or not confirmed.

I wish you a splendid weekend,

Michael

Re: Polikarpov I-16 top ace - Vasilii Golubyev ?
 

Knusel,

Previous posts on the forum have indicated that the Polak book is not particularly reliable and the Bykov volumes should be seen as replacing it.

Nick

Re: Polikarpov I-16 top ace - Vasilii Golubyev ?
 

u'r right, knusel, mr. Bykov might make a typo mistake, and it seems that's the common failing of many russian books. but fundamentally, i have to say that his work is much more reliable than Polak's. lemme take an example, in Polak's book, a soviet pilot named Vasiliy Naydenko scored 99, ahead of Kozhedub, Pokryshkin and Rechkalov. while Bykov's research shows his victories were 1+6 in spain, 0+4 in finland and 5+11 in the great patriotic war, so 6+27 claims in his career. it's a quite smiple arithmetical addition but hard for me to undestand y those two records differ so greatly. to talk turkey, i'm on the side of Bykov
best regards

Re: Polikarpov I-16 top ace - Vasilii Golubyev ?
 

Hello Stukapilot & Nick,

you're probably right. STALIN'S FALCONS is full of inaccuracies :-( However, it's still the best book on the German market with the largest amount of data.
I really should consider acquiring Bykov's work abroad (+learn Russian).

I also think about buying this one:
https://www.amazon.de/dp/0764304763/...I37FHUZSPVQ74W

Can you tell me if it's worth the money ?

Have a nice Thursday,

Michael

Re: Polikarpov I-16 top ace - Vasilii Golubyev ?
 

Hi Michael, yes, I have that one in my collection. I wouldn't say it is the be all and end all of books on the subject but I do feel like I got my money's worth because it was helpful with potted histories of a lot of the units as well as biographies much like Stalin's Falcons. If it counts for anything, nobody I know of has discredited it yet.

Re: Polikarpov I-16 top ace - Vasilii Golubyev ?
 

Hi knusel
all those books u mentioned r in my personal collection so my personal idea, that bykov's book is worth every penny of it. it's a reference book like 4 volumes of "luftwaffe aces" published by wingleader, name-birth/death-rank-units-type used-claims-date-location-type destroyed-comments. bylov spent more than 10 years to collect those trivial files and compile them into a thick coffe table book. it's not so expensive i think, i ordered one copy from Ozon and got it after 3 weeks, app.50 euros in total i remember. as stalin's eagles, i have to say the info from this book is smidgen dated, but in general it's a good book about soviet letchiki in patriotic war. as we all know, schiffer's books vary greatly and this book is 3.5-4 stars as my rating. btw, u could download its scanned PDF from internet for a brief reading before purchasing a copy. WARNING: delete it after reading. copyright :)

Re: Polikarpov I-16 top ace - Vasilii Golubyev ?
 

Hello Stukapilot,

sounds awesome!
Are all of Bykov's books in Cyrillic only ?

I wish you a splendid weekend,

Michael

Re: Polikarpov I-16 top ace - Vasilii Golubyev ?
 

as far as know, all those books by Bykov r in russian. but his newly published books titled Самолеты Cоветских Aсов (The Aircrafts of Soviet Aces) is bilingual, russian & english
regards

Re: Polikarpov I-16 top ace - Vasilii Golubyev ?
 

Sadly, that book ain't availabe in Germany yet.
Can you please have a look for me if the decimals of the shared kills of
Лука Захарович Муравицкий are given ?

Cheers,

Michael

Re: Polikarpov I-16 top ace - Vasilii Golubyev ?
 

Luka Muravitskiy was a less-known pilot whose personal / group aerial victories were all single figures. the foto is taken from Bykov's book, Michael and ich hoffe dass es dir behilfilich ist ;)
ps: if u need this book, someone might order this copy from ozon and send it to your address

Re: Polikarpov I-16 top ace - Vasilii Golubyev ?
 

Dear Stukapilot,

thanks for the Muravitskiy list.
I wonder what takes longer: waiting for the English translation of that amazing book to appear in the German amazon or learning Russian and trying to get it now...

Have a nice Tuesday,

Michael

Re: Polikarpov I-16 top ace - Vasilii Golubyev ?
 

Hello,

Another way of getting access to Bykov's book, is buying it on Google Play. This will give you a digital version of it for around 8.5 euro.

Best wishes/Håkan

Re: Polikarpov I-16 top ace - Vasilii Golubyev ?
 

u could ask my help for anything about soviet pilots' claims. but my suggestion to u is to buy a book. it's not a monologue but a reference book like yellow pages categorized by А to Я. so just learn some cyrillic words with the help of goolge translator, u could easily find the victory claims by most of soviet pilots. it's not a dose of hard work, for example, Речкалов = Rechkalov in english = Retschkalov auf deutsch. just an easy romanization

Re: Polikarpov I-16 top ace - Vasilii Golubyev ?
 

Hello Håkan,

could you give me a link ?

Michael

Re: Polikarpov I-16 top ace - Vasilii Golubyev ?
 

Hello,

The easiest way is to go to play.google.com (you need to have a Google-account (free)) and the on books, search for Михаил Быков.

Best wishes/Håkan

Re: Polikarpov I-16 top ace - Vasilii Golubyev ?
 

Dear Stukapilot,

according to the Bykov lists you posted,

• the I-16 score of Golubyev is 9,24,
• the I-16 score of Muravitzkiy 7,86.

Would you be so kind to post the lists of Shestakov and Gritsevets ?

Thanks in advance,

Michael

Re: Polikarpov I-16 top ace - Vasilii Golubyev ?
 

Hello,

Grisetvets according to Bykov is published on my site: http://surfcity.kund.dalnet.se/soviet_gritsevets.htm

Best wishes/Håkan

Re: Polikarpov I-16 top ace - Vasilii Golubyev ?
 

Hello Håkan,

thanks for updating your Gritsevets victory list according to Bykov's book.
Do you think it will ever be possible to reveal the decimals of all of Gritsevets' shared kills ?

Cheers,

Michael

Re: Polikarpov I-16 top ace - Vasilii Golubyev ?
 

M.Y.Bykov's and Alex Osokin's data - rating (on 19.11.2015):
I-16
1. Pidtykan Ivan Dmitrievich = 12 + 10
2. Safonov Boris Feoktistovich = 12 + 5
3. Kharitonov Vasily Nikolaevich = 10 + 16
4. Pilipenko Ivan Markovich = 10 + 13
5. Baranov Mikhail Semenovich = 10 + 3

Re: Polikarpov I-16 top ace - Vasilii Golubyev ?
 

Hello Kirill,

thanks for your post.
Could you tell me the decimals of the shared kills of Pilipenko ?

Cheers,

Michael

Re: Polikarpov I-16 top ace - Vasilii Golubyev ?
 

Hello Michael,

You can count them yourself here:

http://soviet-aces-1936-53.ru/abc/p/pilipenko.htm

Hope this helps,

Ota

Re: Polikarpov I-16 top ace - Vasilii Golubyev ?
 

Yeah, that makes a I-16 score of 11,46-12,96 for Pilipenko. Thanks.

Will we ever know all decimals of the shared kills of Gritsevets ?

Michael

Re: Polikarpov I-16 top ace - Vasilii Golubyev ?
 

hi, Michael, here's the foto shoots from Bykov's about Gritsevets and two Shestakovs' claims and i guess u do focus on Lev Shestakov, who might collide with another luftwaffe ace Hans Dammers of JG-52 in his last sortie unreturned

Re: Polikarpov I-16 top ace - Vasilii Golubyev ?
 

Hello Stukapilot,

thanks a lot for posting.
I see again a Spain score for Shestakov of 2+1sh kills.
Can you tell me who "invented" the Shestakov Spain score of 8+31sh that is so often to be found ? What is the story behind that ?

Cheers,

Michael

Re: Polikarpov I-16 top ace - Vasilii Golubyev ?
 

it's the quotation from wikipedia:
i think that's the book Stalin's Falcons: The Aces of the Red Star

Re: Polikarpov I-16 top ace - Vasilii Golubyev ?
 

Hello there Gentlemen,

in the quest for the top I-16 ace, I compiled the following most promising candidates and their I-16 scores:
#Golubyev
---Polak: 23+12
---Bykov: 5+16
#Shestakov
---Polak: 11+39
---Bykov: 5+9
#Muravitzky
---Polak: 12+35
---Bykov: 5+10
#Pilipenko
---Polak: 13+29
---Bykov: 13+10
#Gritsevets
---Polak: 14+26
---Bykov: 9+24

Cheers,

Michael

Re: Polikarpov I-16 top ace - Vasilii Golubyev ?
 

Good evening,

the ranking I-16 pilot is one of the top aces that is most difficult to determine, because

• the I-16 fought in 5 different wars
• the victory logs of the aces given by different sources hardly ever match
• the decimals of the shared kills are often unknown

To address the last point I calculated the average of all the Soviet shared kills whose decimals I ever found. The result was 0,35, which I assume might be to high.
Based on this I tried to compare the I-16 scores of the most promising aces:

• if we take the scores given in the book of Polak serious, Golubyev indeed might be the top I-16 ace with about 23+12sh kills in that type
• based on the scores in the book of Bykov, the I-16 top ace might be Gritsevets with 9+24sh kills in that type
• based on the scores given in the Polikarpov book of Maslov the most successful I-16 pilot might be Muravitzkiy with 12+35sh kills in the I-16

Thanks for your input,

Michael

Re: Polikarpov I-16 top ace - Vasilii Golubyev ?
 

...according to this website
http://soviet-aces-1936-53.ru/abc/g/golubev_vf.htm
Vasilii Golubyev has a total of 17+16shared kills only.
Can anybody tell me the story behind the well-known photo that shows him in front of an aircraft with 39 victory stars ?

Cheers,

Michael

Re: Polikarpov I-16 top ace - Vasilii Golubyev ?
 

Good morning,

one of the top I-16 pilots is Boris Safonov.
http://soviet-aces-1936-53.ru/abc/s/safonov.htm
I've just read "Boris Safonov, L'As du Grand Nord" by Yourii Rybin.
He indicates that Safonov scored 13 kills until October 1941.
I think this includes his kill on 5Aug which seems to have been confirmed belatedly but neither his kill on 6Aug nor his group kills.

Cheers,

Michael

Re: Polikarpov I-16 top ace - Vasilii Golubyev ?
 

Good evening Gentlemen,

Safonov is the 3rd or 4th ranking I-16 ace depending on the decimals of Gritsewets' group kills. Will we ever know these ?:

rank/name/I-16 kills (group kills counted as decimals)
1. Грицевец Сергей Иванович = 10-21 [9+24]
2. Пидтыкан Иван Дмитриевич = 16,14 [12+10]
3. Харитонов Василий Николаевич = 14,48 [10+16]
4. Сафонов Борис Феоктистович = 13,83 [13+5] according to Yourii Rybin
5. Пилипенко Иван Маркович = 12,96 [10+13]
6. Оскаленко Дмитрий Ефимович = 12,45-12,95 [12+3]
7. Абрамов Пётр Петрович = 7,42-14,92 [5+25]
8. Игнатьев Николай Петрович = 12,51 [8+13]
9. Цоколаев Геннадий Дмитриевич = 11,95 [9+10]
10. Кравченко Григорий Пантелеевич = 11,79 [11+5] ?
11. Кузнецов Николай Фёдорович = 11,57 [8+11]
12. Баранов Михаил Семёнович = 11,33 [10+3]

Michael

Re: Polikarpov I-16 top ace - Vasilii Golubyev ?
 

Hello Michael,

The short answer on Gritsevet is probably no! There are 12 known group claims from his time in Spain that are given as only shared and nothing more. Two more is credited as shared with another pilot (1/2). To make the solving of this even more improbable is that according to his "official" record (the one used for decorations etc.) he is credited with another 10 shared victories with no info on whatsoever. With so much time pasting since the end of this conflict the probability to new info to cover all this is slim.
The other approach is the one taken by Johannes and Nick Hector in their tread on another place here on TOCH, which is most interesting!

Best wishes/Håkan

Re: Polikarpov I-16 top ace - Vasilii Golubyev ?
 

Good morning Håkan,

that's a pity.
Can you tell me how many pilots were involved in the first kill of Dmitrii Oskalenko ?
http://soviet-aces-1936-53.ru/abc/o/oskalenko.htm

Have a nice Thursday,

Michael

Re: Polikarpov I-16 top ace - Vasilii Golubyev ?
 

Hello again,

Unfortunately not, this is also a claim given as just "shared". But this is perhaps solveable by some of the real Russian expert on this forum since the ORB for 194 IAP is perhaps available.

Best wishes/Håkan

Re: Polikarpov I-16 top ace - Vasilii Golubyev ?
 

Good afternoon Håkan,

do you know how many pilots took part in the group kills that were scored by Pyotr Abramov in 1939 ?
http://soviet-aces-1936-53.ru/abc/a/abramov_pp.htm

Kind regards,

Michael

Re: Polikarpov I-16 top ace - Vasilii Golubyev ?
 

Hello again,

These claims were also only credited as "shared".
As I've said before - buy Bykov's book (Михаил Быков - Все асы Сталина 1936–1953 гг.) on Google Play and then you can search it. The price is very low (~7€) and you can also look into the books before you buy them. My Russian is non-existing but it's easy to search the book for names, dates, types, units etc.

Best wishes/Håkan

Re: Polikarpov I-16 top ace - Vasilii Golubyev ?
 

Good morning Håkan,

I'm considering to buy the book and 7Euro is definitely not too expensive for such an opus.
https://play.google.com/store/books/...d=mGw5AwAAQBAJ
But I'm also reluctant to possess books that I cannot read and hope it'll be translated one day.

Cheers,

Michael