Area position codes on the continent 1944
 

I am in the process of adding the operational sorties of Sgt. Palle Thomsen, 331 (N) Sqn. to my database. Doing this I have encountered different codes used for areas and positions.

E.g. "Movements area B and C" in
http://danishww2pilots.dk/pilotsSort...&sortie_id=269

"M.2441" in
http://danishww2pilots.dk/pilotsSort...&sortie_id=270

"L.9324 and L.8703" in
http://danishww2pilots.dk/pilotsSort...&sortie_id=266

I guess that they refer to positions on a map, but could anyone enlighten me ...?

TIA,
Mikkel Plannthin

Re: Area position codes on the continent 1944
 

Mikkel,

What they are referring to is the Map Grid Reference system where they refer to the letter and series of numbers. See the website below for a description of how the system worked and a coordinates translator that gives a fairly close translation of a set of grid coordinates into a location.

http://www.echodelta.net/mbs/eng-welcome.php

For the notation as to what areas 'B and C' were you would have to find a description somewhere in Squadron records, Wing records or hopefully recorded in a pilot's log book of what those exact areas were. I know for Tac/R pilots, areas of the Netherlands were designated by an area title that represented a reconnaissance area to be covered in a sortie - almost like a bus route.

Hope this helps.

Regards,

Re: Area position codes on the continent 1944
 

Thanks Colin,
I'll study the reference with great interest.

Mikkel

Re: Area position codes on the continent 1944
 

Dear Mikkel and Colin,
Thank you for the question and the prompt reply. I have hastened to add your link Colin to the page on my WEB-site, which deals with the grid systems used by the various services of the nations involved in WW II. Please see:
http://www.gyges.dk/reporting_grids.htm
It would be of great value if someone could provide a link to a site, which explains the system used by the Royal Navy.
brgeds
SES
www.gyges.dk

Re: Area position codes on the continent 1944
 

SES,
I thought that the question might be of interest to you :-)

But as it was a RAF grid, I did not ask you directly.

Mikkel

Re: Area position codes on the continent 1944
 

Hi Mikkel,
And a good thing you didn't, I could not have answered, I learned something to-day, now we need the "Merlin" with the RN Grid.
bregds
SES

Re: Area position codes on the continent 1944
 

Excellent site. I have now tried to convert "M.2441" (http://danishww2pilots.dk/pilotsSort...&sortie_id=270) using the sites "coordinates translater:
Latitude : 49° 40' 51'' N
Longitude : 1° 07' 40'' E

Taking into consideration the impresicion factor given at the site, and that the road may have moved since then, it could be that the convoy mentioned in the ORB as "making east" was heading east along what is at least today the N29.

It might be interesting - just for the fun of it - to take a look at a 1944 map of the area.

Great link.

Mikkel

Re: Area position codes on the continent 1944
 

Coastal Command used the RN grid for home waters.

Code changed usually every 3 months but at times of great activity it was altered every 2 weeks. So to decode a position you need to know the exact date it was given.

Code format is WWXX YYZZ where WW & XX are alpha, YY & ZZ are numeric

WW is a two letter code giving the Lat degree
XX is a two letter code giving the Long degree
YY is the Lat minute
ZZ is the Long minute

e.g.
56 30N 002 10W is the decode of

ZGSE 3002 on 4th Sept 1939
HGMB 3002 on 4th Feb 1940
PCLZ 3002 on 4th Sept 1940
NWYQ 3002 on 4th Jan 1944

It was said that the code was generated by drawing letters out of a hat and the random nature supports this.

Regards
Ross

Re: Area position codes on the continent 1944
 

ooops

Need to preview before posting.

3002 should read 3010 in each case

Ross

Re: Area position codes on the continent 1944
 

Hi Ross,
Thank you for your response. No wonder I couldn't figure out the system.
bregds
SES

Re: Area position codes on the continent 1944
 

But where does one find the hat after all those years, i.e. the system must be on file somewhere.
bregds
SES

Re: Area position codes on the continent 1944
 

SES,
you just need to find the right hat :-)

Mikkel

Re: Area position codes on the continent 1944
 

Dear Mikkel,

You can use this web site http://www.echodelta.net/mbs/eng-translator.php

You follow the explainations to find the appropriate grid (and the appropriate square) and to find the good letter to add before the coordinates that are written in the MACRs. For example, L1660 in the MACR becomes vL1660 with the French Lambert Zone 2 grid.

Good research,

Olliball

Re: Area position codes on the continent 1944
 

Dear Ross,

Thank you for the information. The USAF used the identical system during the SEA War 1960/70. I found this nomenclature describing coordinates for locations 12th TFW F-4C aircraft attacked. Always wondered how this system worked and now I know.

Norman Malayney

Re: Area position codes on the continent 1944
 

Okay, what about these codes that reference Noball sites?

A/15A and XI/A/40

Stephen

Re: Area position codes on the continent 1944
 

Hello Stephen
What you have are NOBALL numbers.
XI/A/15A - Target No. Z.3026 Croisette (Type A, Ski Site)
50˚21’25’’N, 02˚15’50’’E
XI/A/40 - Target No. Z.3043 Ligescourt/Bois De St. Saulve (Type A, Ski Site)
50˚17’25’’N, 01˚51’25’’E

Happy to help
Andy

Re: Area position codes on the continent 1944
 

Andy,

That is great stuff, wowee. Thanks.


Stephen

Re: Area position codes on the continent 1944
 

Hello,

Can someone please tell me the actual placenames and/or Lat-Long where the following two codes are in Italy ?

Q-7196
and
M-852162

Many thanks
Alex

Re: Area position codes on the continent 1944
 

Alex
Using the link provided in this thread you'll get

http://www.mapquest.com/maps?l=44.01...11.14174673141

for the first code (wQ7196 / North Italy Zone).

The second would translate into

http://www.mapquest.com/maps?l=44.226185004227&g=12.562125123593 (its at sea)

for this one (wM852162 / North Italy Zone), but I would not know if that is at all the case.

Mikkel

Re: Area position codes on the continent 1944
 

Hello Mikkel,

Many thanks for the swift and correct reply for both numbers.
I never seem to be able to get the correct place and always end up with somewhere in the USA when I seek some place in Germany or Italy.
Again many thanks.
In the event these two numbers/places were not the one I seek, but were for an A36 and a B25, I seek a P38 further North in the San Lorenzo Di Sebato area.

Thanks again
Alex

Re: Area position codes on the continent 1944
 

Hi,
Does anyone know of a converter, that will convert the grid used on GSGS 4210 map series to lat/long?
bregds
SES

Re: Area position codes on the continent 1944
 

Ross
Thanks for your post.
I am most interested in your findings as I have come across these co-ordinates in No.16 Group files and a Naval Diary expressed as four letters followed by four figures e.g. YZMF 2524 and YZMF 4500 in the early hours of 15th August 1940 and the AHB were unable to state exactly what and where they were.

I thought I had cracked the principle (but not the locations) when I found a printed map titled "D/F Direction Finding Map" for GB and Europe for an RAF Op in December 1940 and although I thought the co-ordinates had changed by the December 1940 map, with the Easting grid marked with two letters on every grid line in pencil and the Northing grid marked with two letters on every grid line in pencil and because of this D/F Map, I was led to believe these co-ordinates were part of a Direction Finding Grid, although I could see tracks of aircraft and several fixes of aircraft within squares marked on the square grid?

I got most of this December 1940 Direction Finding Map on the scanner to get copies.

However, I should be very grateful for further enlightenment of what you are saying about them being a code for Lat. and Long., and also are you able to explain my two in Lat. and Long., please?

Thanks Mark

Re: Area position codes on the continent 1944
 

You had asked this question on the PM system on RAFCommands and I answered it there.

Ross

Re: Area position codes on the continent 1944
 

Thanks Ross

Re: Area position codes on the continent 1944
 

Hi
A friend of mine's father was shot down in Eastern Yugoslavia in 1945. He wants to locate and visit the crash site. We found the circumstantial report in the SAAF 16 sqdn war diaries but the coordinator translator (North Italy map) does not accept this grid reference.

Is there someone who can help to establish the coordinates for this reference?:

W.G. 905999
Yugoslavia 1/100 000
Sheet 99 Visegrad

Many thanks
Tinus

Re: Area position codes on the continent 1944
 

Hello,
I know it is an old post, but the map Sheet 99 Visegrad is available at
http://digitalarchive.mcmaster.ca/is...acrepo%3A10149

I guess You are looking for a Beaufighter that crashed in the Drina river
near Goražde (in the WG square, Danube grid, that is shown on the map).

Also plenty of WW2 maps, downloadable as big files (i.e. 1 GB tiffs).

Zoran