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-   -   Helmut Wick kills on 25th August 1940 (http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/showthread.php?t=1552)

Jon 1st June 2005 08:32

Helmut Wick kills on 25th August 1940
 
PLEASE FIND BELOW A REQUEST I HAVE RECIEVED FROM A FRIEND.
I AM SURE SOMEONE ON THIS FORUM WILL BE ABLE TO HELP?


Pilot P/O Keith Gillman. Keith was posted missing in action after combat
over the English Channel on 25 August 1940. And there are many myths and
mis-information about him! This includes the official version that he was
shot down - I have never believed that he was.

I need to look into the claims of Helmut Wick for that afternoon, I think he
claimed two RAF aircraft, one of which was a Hurricane, in the Portland area
around late afternoon. I believe one of these was a Hurricane (please
correct me if I am wrong). What I need to establish is who the pilots of
those two RAF casualties were (thus probably eliminating Keith Gillman from
the equation). Do you happen to know?

This is all as a result of some information I received recently which,
although seemingly not making too much sense, nevertheless I have to check
out. Finding out who those two British aircraft belonged to that Wick
claimed is thus essential!

I have looked on various websites, etc, for details of Wick's claims, and of
course 'BoB - Then and Now', etc, but with no luck.

robert 1st June 2005 09:19

Re: Helmut Wick kills on 25th August 1940
 
Hi Jon,

you are writing about P/O K.R. Gillman from 32 RAF? If yes he was most probably shot down in Dover area by I/JG26 fighters (probably Lt.Ludwig Hafer). Wick (and many others pilots) claimed 2 victories in Portland area (18`25 one Hurricane, 18`30 one Spitfire) but it was against 152 and 213 RAF squadrons.

Regards

Robert

Laurent Rizzotti 1st June 2005 14:50

Re: Helmut Wick kills on 25th August 1940
 
All known claims on this day (source: Tony Wood's claimlist):

25.08.40 Maj. Wolfgang Schellmann: 9 Stab/JG 2 Spitfire £ Warmwell 18.30 OKL+JFV d.Dt.Lw. 4/I-1B



25.08.40 Oblt. Helmut Wick: 19 3./JG 2 Hurricane £ Portland 18.25 OKL+JFV d.Dt.Lw. 4/I-150B

25.08.40 Oblt. Helmut Wick: 20 3./JG 2 Spitfire £ Portland 18.30 OKL+JFV d.Dt.Lw. 4/I-151B

25.08.40 Fw. Fritz Stritzel: 5 3./JG 2 Spitfire £ S.W. Wareham: 5.500 m. 18.32 OKL+JFV d.Dt.Lw. 4/I-152



25.08.40 Oblt. Helmut-Felix Bolz: 3 5./JG 2 Spitfire £ Dorchester 18.35 OKL+JFV d.Dt.Lw. 4/I-42B

25.08.40 Oblt. Hans Hahn: 6 4./JG 2 Spitfire £ Dorchester 18.35 OKL+JFV d.Dt.Lw. 4/I-Add:



25.08.40 Oblt. Carl-Hans Röders: 4 9./JG 2 Hurricane £ Weymouth 18.34 OKL+JFV d.Dt.Lw. 4/I-33

25.08.40 Oblt. Karl-Heinz Metz: 3 8./JG 2 Hurricane £ Portland 18.35 OKL+JFV d.Dt.Lw. 4/I-36

25.08.40 Fw. Karl Ebert: n.b. 8./JG 2 Hurricane £ Portland 18.35 OKL+JFV d.Dt.Lw. 4/I-nil



25.08.40 Maj. Adolf Galland: 22 Stab/JG 26 Spitfire £ Dungeness-Folkestone: 3.000 m. 19.50 OKL+JFV d.Dt.Lw. 4/I-1



25.08.40 Ltn. Ludwig Hafer: 2 Stab I./JG 26 Hurricane £ W. Folkestone: 2.500 m. 19.30 OKL+JFV d.Dt.Lw. 4/I-41

25.08.40 Fw. Wilhelm Müller: 8 3./JG 26 Spitfire £ Kanal-über See 19.35 OKL+JFV d.Dt.Lw. 4/I-42B

25.08.40 Fw. Wilhelm Müller: 9 3./JG 26 Spitfire £ Dover-Calais: 3.000 m. 19.40 OKL+JFV d.Dt.Lw. 4/I-43

25.08.40 Oblt. Kurt Ruppert: 4 3./JG 26 Spitfire £ südlich Calais 19.50 OKL+JFV d.Dt.Lw. 4/I-44B



25.08.40 Fw. Konrad Carl: 3 ► 9./JG 26 Spitfire £ - 19.50 OKL+JFV d.Dt.Lw. 4/I-126B

25.08.40 Ltn. Josef Bürschgens: 9 Stab III./JG 26 Hurricane £ Littlestone: 3.500 m. 19.55 OKL+JFV d.Dt.Lw. 4/I-127B



25.08.40 Oblt. Karl Fischer: 1 7./JG 27 Hurricane £ Portland 18.40 OKL+JFV d.Dt.Lw. 4/I-122

25.08.40 Fw. Emil Clade: 5 7./JG 27 Spitfire £ westlich Portland 18.42 OKL+JFV d.Dt.Lw. 4/I-123B

25.08.40 Oblt. Ludwig Franzisket: 13 7./JG 27 Hurricane £ Portland 18.55 OKL+JFV d.Dt.Lw. 4/I-124B



25.08.40 Ltn. Ernst-Albrecht Schultz: 2 1./JG 53 Hurricane £ S.W. Portland 18.26 OKL+JFV d.Dt.Lw. 4/II-108

25.08.40 Uffz. Herbert Tzschoppe: 1 1./JG 53 Hurricane £ südl. Portland: 6.200 m. 18.29 OKL+JFV d.Dt.Lw. 4/II-109B

25.08.40 Hptm. Hans-Karl Mayer: 15 1./JG 53 Hurricane £ W. Portland: 6.000-300 m. 18.30 OKL+JFV d.Dt.Lw. 4/II-110

25.08.40 Oblt. Hans Ohly: 4 1./JG 53 Hurricane £ Portland: 6.000-300 m. 18.30 OKL+JFV d.Dt.Lw. 4/II-111

25.08.40 Oblt. Gebhard Dittmar: 2 Stab I./JG 53 Hurricane £ N.W. Portland: 5.000 m. 18.30 OKL+JFV d.Dt.Lw. 4/II-112

25.08.40 Uffz. Herbert Tzschoppe: 2 1./JG 53 Hurricane £ Portland: 6.200 m. 18.31 OKL+JFV d.Dt.Lw. 4/II-113

25.08.40 Ltn. Alfred Zeis: 3 1./JG 53 Hurricane £ südlich Portland: 6.000-300 m. 18.38 OKL+JFV d.Dt.Lw. 4/II-114B

25.08.40 Ltn. Ernst-Albrecht Schultz: 3 1./JG 53 Hurricane £ südlich Portland 18.46 OKL+JFV d.Dt.Lw. 4/II-115B



25.08.40 Fw. Walter Margstein: 2 ► 6./JG 53 Spitfire £ 10 km. S.W. Portland: 4-5.000 m. 18.32 OKL+JFV d.Dt.Lw. 4/II-62

25.08.40 Oblt. Günther Schulze-Blanck: 4 4./JG 53 Spitfire £ - 18.40 OKL+JFV d.Dt.Lw. 4/II-63B



25.08.40 Hptm. Hans von Hahn: 7 8./JG 53 Spitfire £ 10 km. öst Südspitz Portland: 3.800 m. 18.27 OKL+JFV d.Dt.Lw. 4/II-132B

25.08.40 Oblt. Heinz Kunert: 8 8./JG 53 Spitfire £ 10 km. öst Südspitz Portland: 3.800 m. 18.29 OKL+JFV d.Dt.Lw. 4/II-133B

25.08.40 Ltn. Jakob Stoll: 6 8./JG 53 Spitfire £ 10 km. öst Südspitz Portland: 3.800 m. 18.36 OKL+JFV d.Dt.Lw. 4/II-134B



25.08.40 Maj. Hannes Trautloft: 6 Stab/JG 54 Spitfire £ Ärmelkanal 20.20 OKL+JFV d.Dt.Lw. 4/II-1



25.08.40 Hptm. Hubertus von Bonin: 6 Stab I./JG 54 Spitfire £ - 20.10 OKL+JFV d.Dt.Lw. 4/II-31B

25.08.40 Ltn. Siegfried Graf Matuschka: 1 2./JG 54 Spitfire £ - 20.10 OKL+JFV d.Dt.Lw. 4/II-32B



25.08.40 Oblt. Günther Scholz: 5 7./JG 54 Spitfire £ westlich Folkestone: 7.500 m. 20.10 OKL+JFV d.Dt.Lw. 4/II-77

25.08.40 Fw. Max Clerico: 4 7./JG 54 Spitfire £ westlich Folkestone: 7.500 m. 20.10 OKL+JFV d.Dt.Lw. 4/II-78



25.08.40 Fw. Siegfried Göbel (2?) 5./ZG 76 Spitfire £ - 18.15 OKL C. 2031/I Nr.51037/41

25.08.40 Ltn. Karl Helmer (4?) 5./ZG 76 Spitfire £ - 18.20 OKL C. 2031/I Nr.51037/41

25.08.40 Oblt. Ernst-Hartmann v. Schlotheim 5./ZG 76 Spitfire £ - 18.30 OKL C. 2031/I Nr.51037/41


I won't be surprised if other ZG units claimed victories this day but most of ZG units' claims have been "lost" AFAIK.

Given that all airbattles took place in the evening this day, I think any identication of a given claim will always be hypothetical.

Johannes 28th February 2010 22:31

Re: Helmut Wick kills on 25th August 1940
 
Wick was not the wonder horse you think. He was leading the claims race when he was killed, however unlike Molders and Galland he was not an honest claimer!

Johannes

Peter Cornwell 1st March 2010 13:24

Re: Helmut Wick kills on 25th August 1940
 
Jon,

You can discount any connection with the claims of WICK and the loss of Keith GILLMAN on August 25, 1940. Both timing and location simply do not relate. If GILLMAN fell to enemy fighters then, as Robert says, JG26 filed the more likely claims.

timothy 1st March 2010 13:43

Re: Helmut Wick kills on 25th August 1940
 
As something of an aside, I am pleased to have been - so far as research can say - his 18th - helping him on his way. Pleased because he was an Ace!

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v1.../RAF2/wick.jpg

= Tim

Chris Goss 1st March 2010 14:02

Re: Helmut Wick kills on 25th August 1940
 
Tim. I am sure you will have this but if you want, I can send you a photo showing Wick's Bf 109 tail and 'you' marked as 18 on the rudder

Peter Cornwell 1st March 2010 14:04

Re: Helmut Wick kills on 25th August 1940
 
Tim,

I presume to speak on behalf of other forum members in saying that we are equally pleased that you survived the encounter and are still around to tell the tale.

Brian 1st March 2010 16:31

Re: Helmut Wick kills on 25th August 1940
 
Hi guys - especially as the experts are present!

On the subject of Helmut Wick, is is correct that he probably shot down a Ju88 in error circa 13 August 1940, and, if so, was this the LG1 aircraft that crashed near Cherbourg?

Cheers
Brian

Peter Cornwell 1st March 2010 17:24

Re: Helmut Wick kills on 25th August 1940
 
Brian,

I have no knowledge of any such claim.


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