Did the Luftwaffe use captured Allied Aircraft as 'bogies' & 'spotter aircraft' frequently in the defence of the Reich?
 

Did the Luftwaffe frequently use captured Allied Aircraft as 'bogies' & 'spotter aircraft' in the defence of the Reich against the US Bomber formations and their escort fighters?
I am quite new to this forum, but fascinated by this little known possibility. But having read US VIIIth Fighter Command Narratives of Reports based on late 1943. It appears that Pilots including as high as US Flight Colonels reports suggest this is a possibility. They often are reported (generally 'unnumbered') 'old marked' P-38s and P47s engaging in dogfights with their own planes. In one case a unusual marked B24 was reported even observing from distance a 'box' B24s & B17s formation and acting oddly though not in distress.
I know in the heat of battle, friendly fire was common and mistaken identity could be easily done. However the frequency of the Reports and sometimes the detailed descriptions suggest these are not mistaken identity?.
Does any one have any good examples of this they can share?

Re: Did the Luftwaffe use captured Allied Aircraft as 'bogies' & 'spotter aircraft' frequently in the defence of the Reich?
 

I think you will find that these reports of "stalking horse" captured Allied a/c are just legend. The Luftwaffe had very few flyable Allied machines and strickly kept them as test/evaulation machines as well as the "Rosario Circus" taking them around to various units so a limited number of Luftwaffe pilots might fly them. The Germans would not have risked losing captured machines in "stalking", much less combat.

I know Allied pilots "saw what they saw", but that does not mean it was true or accurate.

Re: Did the Luftwaffe use captured Allied Aircraft as 'bogies' & 'spotter aircraft' frequently in the defence of the Reich?
 

Gents,

sometimes the Luftwaffe did use captured allied a/c in action, nonetheless mostly in special services. For instance a B-17, marked with German coding A3+BB of KG 200 - 12th January 1945 sortie for "Unternehmen Kadella" and 13th/14th January 1945 for "Unternehmen Perlenfischer" (both flights in order to drop agents). Source: "Moskau ruft Heeresgruppe Mitte" by Günther W. Gellermann.
Possibly there is some more to find. I'll give it a try within the next few days.

Cheers
Norbert

Re: Did the Luftwaffe use captured Allied Aircraft as 'bogies' & 'spotter aircraft' frequently in the defence of the Reich?
 

Of course, there is the downing of a P-51B/C on October 29,1944 by Lt. Eldon Coulton (95th FS, 82nd FG).
"About 30 miles southeast of Linz, Austria, an early model Mustang (P-51B or C) painted olive drab, made an attack out of the clouds on several 95th P-38s after tailing them for some time...Coulson finally made fired one short burst...and saw strikes on its canopy and engine. The Mustang rolled over,went straight down and crashed into a mountain...The Mustang had no national insignia, nor a red spinner,which identified the 15th AF P-51s."

Also the 10th Photo Recon reported the following sighting on Dec 26,1944(10 PRG-Ivie)

"Lt Ricci brought back reports of a possible German flown P-47, noting it was painted green with a bright yellow nose and tail sections with black cross markings." The markings are exactly the Luftwaffe color scheme for captured aircraft

I don't think the Luftwaffe used their captured aircraft recklessly, but these are verified sightings.

Re: Did the Luftwaffe use captured Allied Aircraft as 'bogies' & 'spotter aircraft' frequently in the defence of the Reich?
 

Allied 'K' report shows that B17G A3+BB fell to an Allied N/F around 0615hrs on 23rd.Mar.1945 at Luvigny 30 miles W.S.W. of Strasbourg. The aircraft had been on an agent dropping and supply flight, being shot down after it had dropped the agents. Of the eleven man Luftwaffe crew six were taken POW and the rest killed.
Another 'K' report states it was the intention to use a captured P-47 to attempt to recon. to the Bristol area in the latter stages of the Steinbock attacks. To protect the pilot Ofw.Hans Schaefer 3(F)/121, in the event of capture, the aircraft was given German markings, but was to approach the UK using the IFF.

Re: Did the Luftwaffe use captured Allied Aircraft as 'bogies' & 'spotter aircraft' frequently in the defence of the Reich?
 

The stalking or shadowing (Fühlungshalter) aircraft were all German - Ju 88s and Bf 110s - and were assigned to the Luftbeobachterstaffeln 1, 2, 3, 4 and 7.

The captured Allied aircraft were all used by the Versuchsverband Ob.d.L. and in 1944-45 by KG 200.

L.

Re: Did the Luftwaffe use captured Allied Aircraft as 'bogies' & 'spotter aircraft' frequently in the defence of the Reich?
 

This is very interesting story, hope more info will be available one day :)

Re: Did the Luftwaffe use captured Allied Aircraft as 'bogies' & 'spotter aircraft' frequently in the defence of the Reich?
 

The excerpt is from "Adorimini: The History of the 82nd FG" by Blake.

Re: Did the Luftwaffe use captured Allied Aircraft as 'bogies' & 'spotter aircraft' frequently in the defence of the Reich?
 

Incidences of possible captured Allied Aircraft used as 'bogies', 'bandits' and 'spotters'
Latter Report seems confirmed. All reports seem to be around same few days!
1.
"Captain Andrews, Blue Flight leader, and Lt. McKean, Green Flight leader of 486
Squadron, fired upon two Me 109s with yellow spinners in the vicinity of Tessel at 13.22 hours. Group leader was notified by bomber intercom. that a German
B-24 was in formation with one of the B-24 boxes. Colonel Mason orbitted with flight to encounter but could not locate the enemy aircraft".
Extract from Intelligence Issue No. 76 U.S. VIII th Fighter Command F.O. 191 VIIIth Bomber Command F.O. 315 26th November 1943
2.
"Lieutenant-Colonel Schilling led 56th Fighter Group" "One unusual B-17 reported near Egmond seen to approach straggler from the south and then broke off and headed
inland." "One lone P-47 with no white band on cowling seen also in area". "Considerable radio jamming". 29th November 1943
3.
"Captain Button, leader of Green Flight, 487th Squadron, saw one P-38 with old American red marking in a dog-fight with P-47s in the vicinity of Rethy at
11.35 hrs. at approximately 29,000 feet. He pulled up to the P-38 and fired his guns at it." Lieutenant Hamilton, of same flight, saw this P-38 attack
a P-47, but could not see if it had fired its guns". Captain Dilling, leader of Yellow Flight, 487th Squadron, reports another agressive P-38 flying up through last box of bombers. There were no visible markings. This plane was seen by Lieutenant Sweeney of Yellow Flight, 487th Squadron, who also identified the plane and saw no markings." Field Order No. 193 - Fighter Support
First Task Force: Solingen (abortive). U.S. VIIIth Fighter Command F.O. 193 VIIIth
Bomber Command F.O. 321 30th November 1943

Re: Did the Luftwaffe use captured Allied Aircraft as 'bogies' & 'spotter aircraft' frequently in the defence of the Reich?
 

The only use of captured aircraft in combat (for me) is known by the Italian Airforce, there a P-38 was in action and so far I know the pilot also credited with the kill of a B-24, in the german airforce only KG 200 use captured aircraft - but in german markings B-24 and B-17´s - but for sure it could happend that somebody meet a captured Mustang or Thunderbolt on a test flight ?
khorat

Re: Did the Luftwaffe use captured Allied Aircraft as 'bogies' & 'spotter aircraft' frequently in the defence of the Reich?
 

Gentlemen,

This is very interesting. This topic needs to be explored more. Happy 2018!

Edward L. Hsiao

Re: Did the Luftwaffe use captured Allied Aircraft as 'bogies' & 'spotter aircraft' frequently in the defence of the Reich?
 

What possible advantage would there be in flying an enemy aircraft in airspace where your own Flak and fighters were active? There were enough friendly fire casualties without providing an extra reason!

Re: Did the Luftwaffe use captured Allied Aircraft as 'bogies' & 'spotter aircraft' frequently in the defence of the Reich?
 

A better "ear" for investigating new radio and radar devices come to mind. Just a posibility, zero evidence

Re: Did the Luftwaffe use captured Allied Aircraft as 'bogies' & 'spotter aircraft' frequently in the defence of the Reich?
 

There were dedicated units, such as Kdo Rastadter, for listening using German aircraft

Re: Did the Luftwaffe use captured Allied Aircraft as 'bogies' & 'spotter aircraft' frequently in the defence of the Reich?
 

And if anyone's interested in them … http://www.ghostbombers.com/recon/Rastedter/lj01.html

Re: Did the Luftwaffe use captured Allied Aircraft as 'bogies' & 'spotter aircraft' frequently in the defence of the Reich?
 

Then ... some ... Ju 88 / 188s of abowe units, listed in Mr. Beales research, do not always agree with experts knowledge of these aircraft, versions and serials not matching this authors research. But not saying this is faulty in any way.

Me too have been researching as much of Ultra (HW 5) as possible but last (2016) trip to TNA was unfortunately shorter than I liked, so have not got copying longer than just beginning of August 44.

Eggert

Re: Did the Luftwaffe use captured Allied Aircraft as 'bogies' & 'spotter aircraft' frequently in the defence of the Reich?
 

How gracious of you.

Re: Did the Luftwaffe use captured Allied Aircraft as 'bogies' & 'spotter aircraft' frequently in the defence of the Reich?
 

You are welcome.

Re: Did the Luftwaffe use captured Allied Aircraft as 'bogies' & 'spotter aircraft' frequently in the defence of the Reich?
 

Who are these anonymous 'experts' of whom you speak?

The day ALL researched information matches exactly, and there is nothing more to know/find out, is the day all researchers close their files, quit what they are doing, and head off into the sunset...

Re: Did the Luftwaffe use captured Allied Aircraft as 'bogies' & 'spotter aircraft' frequently in the defence of the Reich?
 

Multiple aircraft in text on Kdo Rastadter not be in agreement. My comment were directly tread related.

Re: Did the Luftwaffe use captured Allied Aircraft as 'bogies' & 'spotter aircraft' frequently in the defence of the Reich?
 

That is not the answer to the question Eggert.

Re: Did the Luftwaffe use captured Allied Aircraft as 'bogies' & 'spotter aircraft' frequently in the defence of the Reich?
 

That is my answer.

Re: Did the Luftwaffe use captured Allied Aircraft as 'bogies' & 'spotter aircraft' frequently in the defence of the Reich?
 

So, similar to the Luftwaffe Quartermaster returns and the Namentliche Verlustmeldungen then...

Re: Did the Luftwaffe use captured Allied Aircraft as 'bogies' & 'spotter aircraft' frequently in the defence of the Reich?
 

Nah, this is what you said: "...Mr. Beales research, do not always agree with experts knowledge of these aircraft..."

You still haven't said who these 'experts' are.

That isn't an answer at all.

You called out Nick Beale. Answer the question...

Re: Did the Luftwaffe use captured Allied Aircraft as 'bogies' & 'spotter aircraft' frequently in the defence of the Reich?
 

I think this be final on Kdo Rastadter not using captured equipment.

But if interested read here comments #167 , #170, #172, #173
and you have your answer.

http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/showth...t=5033&page=17
http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/showth...t=5033&page=18

Re: Did the Luftwaffe use captured Allied Aircraft as 'bogies' & 'spotter aircraft' frequently in the defence of the Reich?
 

So you are experts (plural) ?

Re: Did the Luftwaffe use captured Allied Aircraft as 'bogies' & 'spotter aircraft' frequently in the defence of the Reich?
 

No, just amatör. Always learning.
One experts opinion would not matter much, does it?

Re: Did the Luftwaffe use captured Allied Aircraft as 'bogies' & 'spotter aircraft' frequently in the defence of the Reich?
 

You are reffering to yourself Eggert as "experts". By implying there is more then one of those and thus demeaning the work of others is subpar.

Re: Did the Luftwaffe use captured Allied Aircraft as 'bogies' & 'spotter aircraft' frequently in the defence of the Reich?
 

My work is the best available, likely equals to many experts.
But my typing maybe faulty.

Re: Did the Luftwaffe use captured Allied Aircraft as 'bogies' & 'spotter aircraft' frequently in the defence of the Reich?
 

Eggert, its is not your work or your typing that is faulty. It is the blatend and arrogant attack on a fellow member again that is.
Calling your own work the best available should and will be frowned upon.

Re: Did the Luftwaffe use captured Allied Aircraft as 'bogies' & 'spotter aircraft' frequently in the defence of the Reich?
 

Calm down.

Re: Did the Luftwaffe use captured Allied Aircraft as 'bogies' & 'spotter aircraft' frequently in the defence of the Reich?
 

Self-praise is no recommendation whatsoever...

Re: Did the Luftwaffe use captured Allied Aircraft as 'bogies' & 'spotter aircraft' frequently in the defence of the Reich?
 

indeed calm down. If you gentlemen do not get back to the question of the thread I will shut it down.