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Leo Etgen 5th March 2005 05:10

Hi Franek

Thanks for your reply to my post concerning Wurmheller. I appreciate your information that only one other loss is recorded for that date and it appears to have occured at a different location than the loss of Wurmheller. If I too remember correctly, the events were that his formation was escorting fighter-bombers when attacked by the Spitfire fighters of 411 Sqn, RCAF. His fighter went into a rapid climb but was attacked from above by F/O JW Fleming and exploded. I would like to thank you as well for your information concerning the unit involved in the loss of Weber.



Franek Grabowski 6th March 2005 09:26

The general problem is almost complete lack of accounts and documents from the German side. I cannot exclude that the circumstances of Wurmheller loss were different and even that he was not lost that day but as yet I think we must rely on Allied records and suplement them with known German data.
There is a lot to be done by the German researchers to document this period. ;)
PS Any particular interest in Weber?

dahiot daniel 6th March 2005 19:03


Originally Posted by Franek Grabowski

Originally Posted by Christer Bergstrom
Franek’s thesis “361FG was clearly involved in combat with JG11 and not JG2” is based on Clark’s personal assumption that 2./JG 11’s (not II./JG 11, as Clark writes) Ofw. Kokisch was shot down by 361 FG at around 0950 hours. (David Clark, CD “Daily Data tables of the Normandy Air War Diary”, 6 June 1944.) However, in the chronicle on JG1/11 (page 1020), Prien tells us that Ofw. Kokisch crashed at Rennes - which is too far away (100 miles) from the area where 361 FG operated to be explained as a mere navigational error.

This does not deny the fact 361 FG could fight with JG11.

Oberfeldwebel KOKISCH Heinz

After long month of researches in the region of Rennes to find Fw 190 of the Oberfeldwebel KOKISCH Heinz.

It was never found. The Oblt Fritz Engau to confuse with the loss of Uffz. Folger come across the front of invasion and buried to Rennes.

Oberfeldwebel KOKISCH that here was dead 8 June 44. (1st place of buried : cemetery of East of Caen. Banneville-la-Campagne, X, B - 4. 2st place of buried it 09/06/1944, cemetery of the La Cambe, block 30-6- 228.)

Without doubt loss in the morning of 8 June during its mission on it Riva Bella ?
Source documentation : (dossier KOKISCH Heinz) Wast Deutsche Dienststelle.


post edited by Ruy Horta

Leo Etgen 7th March 2005 05:24

Hi Franek

Thanks for your kind explanation concerning the gaps in known information relative to the day and period in question. As you pointed out, it may be that Wurmheller actually did collide with his wing man as is most often stated but if we take into account this Allied information we have the possibility that he was indeed shot down. As to Weber, I am interested in JG 51 aces in particular among those of the Luftwaffe and am always on the look-out for information about them. In the case of Weber, since he was a 100 plus victory ace, including many with the Fw 190 and his unusual end. I knew that he was killed by Polish flown RAF Mustangs but did not know the specific squadron that was involved until your post. As an aside, it is noteworthy how so many JG 51 aces began to increase their tallies upon conversion to the Fw 190, such as Brendel, Josten, Schack and Weber among others.



Franek Grabowski 7th March 2005 09:32

Do you have exact crash locations? I understand that Kokisch was buried in the nearest cemetery,

What would you say about particular pilot? ;)

dahiot daniel 7th March 2005 10:53


The burial Banneville-la-Campagne was used for all soldiers die in the region of Caen.

Impossible for the moment to know the place excat of the crash of KOKISCH Heinz.
It is well difficult to determine in this period after Day J in Normandy a such crash. Thousands of crashs on this territory.

Franek Grabowski 7th March 2005 12:50

I am not sure if I understood you correctly but it seems strange for me. I would expect the body to be buried at crashsite or the nearest cemetery initially and only then to reinterr it on a big one. Hmm.

Leo Etgen 9th March 2005 05:30

Weber & Wurmheller
Hi Franek

I will take the liberty of sharing the combat report of F/O Fleming kindly provided to me through e-mail by Ota Jivorec. I hope that you find it as interesting as I did.

22nd June 1944
441 Squadron
Spitfire IXB
1440 hours
Southeast of Domfront
One FW 190 destroyed

I was flying on the port side of Black Leader as Black 5. I sighted
two aircraft on the deck and immediately went down on them.

I took the leading aircraft and opened fire at approximately 400
yards. He broke immediately, and pulled straight up in the air. I
held my fire and, when within 50 yards of him, I saw strikes and
then he blew up. I flew through the debris and, upon returning to
base, found that a piece had been knocked off the tip of my
propeller. Also, only one cannon had fired.

I claim one FW 190 destroyed.

J.W. Fleming, Flying Officer

No assurance that it was Wurmheller but it may very well be describing the last moments of one of the Luftwaffe's greatest aces. Thank you Ota! As to Weber, I will limit myself to say that as he was one of only nine aces that claimed over a hundred victories with JG 51 he is of definite interest to me. I believe that he was a experienced and skilled veteran who flew over 500 missions and claimed 88 victories in 1943 and 26 in 1944, at a time when skilled Russian pilots had developed flying what were to be the primary types flown by the VVS such as the Il-2, LaGG-3, LaGG-5, Yak-7, Yak-9 and Pe-2. Most of his victims apperantly were the various Lavochkin and Yakovlev fighters, which would lead one to assume that he was skilled in air to air combat with enemy fighters. It is my personal opinion that one cannot draw conclusions as to the relative merits of air combat on the two fronts based upon the eventual fate of individual German aces. However, the fact remains that Weber was killed in action on his first mission over the Invasion Front. In my personal opinion, what this episode demonstrates is that even having the experience of over 500 missions and 136 victories against capable opponents is no guarantee of invincibility when facing well trained, experienced and skilled pilots flying excellent fighters, who did not necessarily always need rely upon numerical superiority to achieve success. After all, in the interest of fairness, it is my understanding that Weber and his comrades were also badly outnumbered on the Eastern Front as well. I would be pleased to read what you would have to write about this as you are a regular contributor to this board with far greater knowledge about the Luftwaffe than I do.



Ota Jirovec 9th March 2005 11:23

Fleming´s Combat Report
Perhaps I should add that this Combat Report of F/O Fleming was published in excellent John Foreman´s Fighter Command War Diaries, Volume 4. By the way, does anyone have a more accurate location of Wurmeheller crash than a rather vague Alencon area? After all, Domfront is still some 50 km WNW of Alencon although the location "Southeast of Domfront" makes the distance a little shorter.....


Franek Grabowski 9th March 2005 11:44

Re: Weber & Wurmheller
Thanks for the report (Ahoj Ota!), I am wondering what caused so violent explosion, petrol fumes perhaps? Anyway, a confirmed kill in my opinion.
Concerning Weber - the airman who likely downed him, flew fighters since 1939, took part in Polish Campaign, then France and then Britain. Although scored only 5 victories (2,1/3-2-0), he was certainly a very experienced pilot with hundreds of hours of flying time.
On the other hand Weber flew in a definetelly new environment and it is my impression that the Germans never got any experience in flying and fighting in large formations - this resulting in scattering of formations. Otherwise, Eastern Front was quite a comfortable place for fighters - Soviet aircraft had poor altitude performance and this allowed Weber and other to fly above them - height advantage is one of the principles of air combat since Roland Garros or Immelmann. Another problem is level of skills of Soviet airmen but if you want to follow the last two points I suggest to move to another already existing threads.
As a side note, I have heard that an article was recently published in France, where author compares Hartmann claims to recorded Soviet losses (based on archival research). Reputedly not very impressive overclaim ratio.

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