Horst-Günther von Fassong
 

Good evening,

has Horst-Günther von Fassong scored more Jagdgeschwader 11 kills than Anton Hackl ?

Michael

Horst-Günther von Fassong
 

Hi Michael

It is almost certain that Hackl claimed a considerable amount more than von Fassong while serving with JG 11. Unfortunately, as the victory lists that I have of both men are not complete I prefer to refrain from a more detailed answer. Hopefully, others can add more to this.

Horrido!

Leo

Re: Horst-Günther von Fassong
 

Hello Leo,

I was wondering if Hackl might be the ranking JG 11 ace.
How come Fassong is sometimes associated with more than 130 (!) kills ?

Michael

Horst-Günther von Fassong
 

Hi Michael

My impression is that indeed Hackl was the leading ace of JG 11. However, there is a considerable gap in the victory list that I have for him from May 1944 through October 1944. He appears to have claimed a number of victories during this time but it is not known if these were with JG 11 or JG 76. He also appears to have made a number of claims with JG 11 in 1945. We will have to wait until the relevant Die Jagdfliegerverbände der Deutschen Luftwaffe 1934 bis 1945 volumes are published for more clarity. As for von Fassong the best evidence that I have seen places his total number of claims in the 75 to 80 range.

Horrido!

Leo

Re: Horst-Günther von Fassong
 

Hello,

the lowest estimate of Hackl's JG11 tscore hat I know is 22, the highest 55. Thus ,with high probability the is JG11's leading ace.

However, I wonder who spreaded the higher Fassong total and why. I found his total to be listed as follows:
-Toliver/Constable (1968) 75-136, not clear
-Musciano (1982) 136
-Aders/Held (1984) ~85
-Obermeier (1989) 75, potentially ~80
-Spick (1996) 136

Cheers,

Michael

Re: Horst-Günther von Fassong
 

Good evening Gentlemen,

I'm still trying to prove that Anton Hackl is the top JG 11 ace.
His wide-spread total of 192 might include unconfirmed claims.
I've found 190 claims with their corresponding units:

• 138 in JG 77
• 41 in JG 11
• 10 in JG 26
• 1 in JG 300

The missing 2 claims are considered to have been scored in either JG 11 or in JG 76. Who can help ?

Michael

Re: Horst-Günther von Fassong
 

More about Horst von Fassong.


https://www.emedals.com/an-extensive...h-47-victories





Usual disclaimer,
Ed

Re: Horst-Günther von Fassong
 

Here is some information about Anton Hackl.


http://www.luftwaffe.cz/hackl.html





Ed

Re: Horst-Günther von Fassong
 

Good evening Ed,

thanks for the link to these interesting documents.
Is there any document that reveals the official final score of Fassong ?

Kind regards,

Michael

Re: Horst-Günther von Fassong
 

Good afternoon, Michael,

That is all I know.




Regards,
Ed

Re: Horst-Günther von Fassong
 

Good morning Ed,

the Fassong link you've posted indicates a total of 136 kills. His Knight's Cross was awarded on 27Jul1944 for 100 kills according to the article.
This might or might not be plausible. What do you think ?
For example, Franz Schall received his Knight's Cross in October for 117 kills.

Cheers,

Michael

Re: Horst-Günther von Fassong
 

Other sites also state the RK was awarded 27/7/44. The 100 kills may have been achieved 1 or 2 months before that - unless you believe total kills were only 80 or so ..... So, are the 136 many sites record a myth?
Peter

Re: Horst-Günther von Fassong
 

Does Dr. Prien's history of JG 11 give any totals for Fassong?

Re: Horst-Günther von Fassong
 

In Prien's JG1/11-books Fassong's victories at III./JG 11 are listed as follows: in May 1944 (8./12./22. and 28.5.) he claims four B-17, confirmed claims No. 63.-66.; followed by 9 claims at the eastern front in summer 1944 (includes one Il-2 on 15-7-44, one R-5 on 22-7-44, no further details), what gives a summary of 75 claims.
btw: 62 claims at JG 51, last 3 on 25-1-44
I think this very old "136" number is nonsense! Someone has heard something from another and so on...

Re: Horst-Günther von Fassong
 

Good evening bakerman,

thanks for the data.

What did Fassong do in autumn 1944 ?
Present his Knight's Cross at home ?
Shoot down 61 planes ?

Kind regards,

Michael

Re: Horst-Günther von Fassong
 

Good afternoon Gentlemen,

I'm still interested in any info that suffices to prove that Fassong's total was 75 (and not 136).

Michael

Re: Horst-Günther von Fassong
 

Since I now own Fassongs Soldbuch and other misc documents I have a bit more vested interest in his final tally.

From what I can piece together he had a total 73 victories at least based on available data. The link below is from my website where I have chronicled Fassongs career and victories.

http://aufhimmelzuhause.com/id463.htm

Regards
Jeremy

Re: Horst-Günther von Fassong
 

Nicely done Jeremy

Re: Horst-Günther von Fassong
 

Thanks Snautzer much appreciated!

Re: Horst-Günther von Fassong
 

Jeremy,


Very interesting, thank you for sharing it.


Perter

Re: Horst-Günther von Fassong
 

Good evening Jeremy,

great work. Thanks for sharing.
I've found a typo for the months of his kills #57-60 ('11' instead of '1').
Why didn't he score in Aug-Dec 1944 ?

Have a nice weekend,

Michael

Re: Horst-Günther von Fassong
 

Thanks Michael

Good catch.

Interesting question and I can only guess that either the records for that period were missing or he genuinely had NO kills during that period. That seems unlikely however I do not believe he came anywhere near 136 kills let alone 100.

Unfortunately unless his flight logs or other supporting documentation ever come to light there won’t be anyway to determine additional victories during the period mentioned.

The mystery continues

Jeremy

Re: Horst-Günther von Fassong
 

Hi Gentlemen

The link previously posted to e-medals includes some detail on the kill claims for that missing period, as follows:


47 aerial victory confirmations. They are all issued by the Luftwaffe Personnel Department, and later the Supreme Command of the Luftwaffe. They are dated to Berlin, the first few between March 17 and November 4, 1942, the majority between October 25 and November 8, 1944. Three were signed by a Staff Captain, his name is indecipherable. All the others are signed by one person, no rank or position is given, the signature is indecipherable.

The individual claims are illustrated too.

Re: Horst-Günther von Fassong
 

Excellent!! Thanks Tim

I will look at those more closely!

Regards
Jeremy

Re: Horst-Günther von Fassong
 

I looked through the Abschussmeldungen on eMedals to Fassong and unfortunately they don’t shed any additional light on the later victories compiled in 1944.

The documents were issued in October and November 1944 but they reference/confirm victories he had in 1943 while still serving with JG51. So the search continues.

The silver lining is that the group is still there to use as reference and probably will be for the next 100 years, that group of documents is waaaaaay overpriced.

Cheers
Jeremy

Re: Horst-Günther von Fassong
 

Wrong pics of him on the emedals documents group, that is not Fassong but the recon pilot Fritz Eckebrecht.

Re: Horst-Günther von Fassong
 

Nothing in his personnel file either on late claims. The only numbers in there are;

30.11.43: 54 Luftsiege, 257 Frontflüge
21.04.44: 62 Abschüsse, 379 Frontflüge

Cheers,

John

Re: Horst-Günther von Fassong
 

Good afternoon Gentlemen,

hmm...62 kills on 21Apr fits better with the data provided by Prien than with the list of Jeremy (and Johannes Mathews).
54 kills on 30Nov doesn't fit with any (secondary) sources I know.
The 136-kills-mystery continues.

Kind regards,

Michael

Re: Horst-Günther von Fassong
 

Hi Michael

Did find an additional Russian claim for von Fassong, basically his staffels claims earlier on on the mikrofilms gave date and time only, just the not so simple task of matching them to a name, one of those names was von Fassong, acquired via an abschussmeldung of his.

Doesn't really answer your question about his total, but his last units claims are good on the mikrofilms until 24th December 1944, and he wasn't very successful at all around this time.

See attached

Kind Regards

JohannesAttachment 17632

Re: Horst-Günther von Fassong
 

Good evening Johannes,

thanks for the update.
Sometimes the deaths of aces were announced in the newspaper along with their scores. I suppose that wasn't done with Fassong because so many died during "Bodenplatte", was it ?

Have a nice weekend,

Michael

Re: Horst-Günther von Fassong
 

Does anybody now the exact number of the Erkennungsmarke of Hauptmann Horst-Günther von Fassong? I have candidates 65155/21 and 65153/27 ?

Re: Horst-Günther von Fassong
 

B65153/21

Matti

Re: Horst-Günther von Fassong
 

Thanks Matti.

Hauptmann Horst-Günther von Fassong crashed at Opglabbeek (B) according to the book "Duel in de Wolken", by Ron Pütz. Can anybody tell me where Ron had this information from?

Re: Horst-Günther von Fassong
 

Good evening Matti,

your knowledge is impressive.
Can you tell me why his total score is sometimes indicated as 136 ?

Cheers,

Michael

Re: Horst-Günther von Fassong
 

Sorry, but I have no interest in the scores of the pilots. Therefore I have not a slightest idea of the confirmed or unconfirmed claims of any pilot. Will leave that topic to other guys.

Matti

Re: Horst-Günther von Fassong
 

Hello Sirkmicky,


according to "Bodenplatte, the Luftwaffe's Last Hope" by Manhro and Pütz the aircraft of von Fassong crashed near Opglabbeek and the sources they give for this information are the Namentliche Verlustmeldung and RAF Crashed Enemy Aircraft Report No. 264/1945.


Kind regards,


Timon

Re: Horst-Günther von Fassong
 

Good morning,

one book that indicates 136 Fassong kills is this one:
https://www.amazon.de/Die-ber%C3%BCh...9601628&sr=8-3

Cheers,

Michael

Re: Horst-Günther von Fassong
 

Clearly a dated publication

Re: Horst-Günther von Fassong
 

I think the English original is from 1982.
But the narrative style, the layout and the appealing photos make it very enjoyable to read.

Re: Horst-Günther von Fassong
 

Indeed Timon, following the Crashed Enemy Report his WNr. was found at Opglabbeek. I suppose Ron Pütz had much more detailed information on the Bodenplatte-crashsites than used in his books... Where did it go... Hopefully not thrown away and does it survive in the loving care of somebody else!