Luftwaffe and Allied Air Forces Discussion Forum - Info on 103 Fairey Battle losses on the continent during mid-May, 1940

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Re: Info on 103 Fairey Battle losses on the continent during mid-May, 1940

Agreed. And I believe the last strip of photos has been attributed to a No.226 Squadron loss on 10 May 1940 near Bettendorf (K9183) ? Nice assemblage - thanks for sharing.

Re: Info on 103 Fairey Battle losses on the continent during mid-May, 1940

Two pics dated (27) March 1940 here :

http://www.iwmcollections.org.uk/qryPhotoImg.php

Keyword(s) : K9408

PMoN according to the captions, but ...

Re: Info on 103 Fairey Battle losses on the continent during mid-May, 1940

udf__00,

Thanks for sending this info and the IWM photo references. Peter Cornwell is checking this out and we may have to change the identity for K9408 for the FL photos of PMoN. In the meantime, does anyone have any photos of PMoN that clearly show the SN on the force-landed a/c? Unfortunately mine aren't clear enough to be certain. Since plane codes can be changed, we need to be careful before we change the ID of this one in our DB.

This is precisely why I'm putting this info on TOCH, to get the bugs out before this later goes into print. By moving this one, this may force a re-arrangement of the chairs for ascribing dates and codes so some other FL Battles during the WC.

Regards,

Re: Info on 103 Fairey Battle losses on the continent during mid-May, 1940

Larry,
.
Concerning first names and crew positions.
I had been meaning to reply on this matter on the thread you began some weeks ago, but will do so now. I agree with this approach 100% and will do whatever I can to assist you, Peter and the EOE team to achieve this regarding the British and Commonwealth personnel. Because of the Air Force Lists, London Gazette website, etc. I expect the first names of officers can be found in at least 98% of cases. NCOs and Other Ranks will be more difficult, but most should be possible to identify. There are many resources available, not least colleagues on this and other forums. A service number if available is often the key.
Apart from any other consideration recording their full names provides a greater tribute to those men, and gives their descendants a much greater link to them and awareness of their exploits and sacrifices.
.
On that PH / PM Battle photo I believe it is a 12 Sqn. aircraft also. Both the unit code location and style of fin flash leads me to this conclusion.
.
'K9408' / PM-N.
I cannot get any clarity on the two IWM photos. I suppose we would have to purchase them and perhaps that is the idea !
There is at least one photo of PM-N showing the serial L5446. It is on page 269 of 'TBoF,T&N' but was captioned L5516 at the time of publication. At least one other E-bay photo appears to show the bottom part of '..446'. Oddly PM-N (L5446) has a standard application of the unit code and individual letter, ie. on either side of the roundel. Whereas most 103 Sqn. machines have all three letters to one side of the roundel. While the IWM images are not very clear at least one of them seems not to have a letter after the roundel. Although we do not have details of the history of L5446 ( THE BATTLE FILE ) I do not believe it was a replacement aircraft acquired after May 10th to replace another PM-N lost on the 10th or 12th. The codes are too neatly painted ! Looking at the individual serials used by 103 Sqn. it seems the first replacement aircraft they received was on the 14th (P5237, and this survived the campaign). Next on the 18th they acquired their first proper batch of replacements (seven). All this leads me to believe that PM-N was L5446 and was on the squadron strenght on May 10th.
As far as I know K9408 was not belly-landed on May 10th after suffering heavy damage. K9408 was recovered and sent back to the UK where it was repaired and flew again in training roles.
.
Regards,
.
Martin.

Re: Info on 103 Fairey Battle losses on the continent during mid-May, 1940

Martin, as usual, provides some cautionary and most welcome clarity. IF the IWM photos do indeed show K9408 with codes PM*N taken in March 1940 then it is most unlikely that it still carried the same codes on 10 May 1940 when it was damaged. It may well have got back to Mourmelon (No.88 Squadron's base) on that occasion only to be transported by them overland to Les Grandes Chappelles some days later from where it was eventually recovered for repair but this part of its history is somewhat speculative. Four days later L5446 PM*N was brought down (evidenced by photographs) which is too soon for another aircraft(replacement or no) to have been so coded. And yes, my photo caption on p279 of BoFrT&N did get it wrong.

Re: Info on 103 Fairey Battle losses on the continent during mid-May, 1940

Hi,

browsing in e-bay i found this photo :

http://cgi.ebay.de/Foto-engl-Flugzeu...item3f08efcf3d

Its some maschine from this thread ?

Faenor

Re: Info on 103 Fairey Battle losses on the continent during mid-May, 1940

14 May 1940: Battle K9374. Hit by intense flak during attack on bridge at Mouzon and believed belly-landed near Machault 3.40 p.m. Flying Officer T. B. Fitzgerald slightly wounded, Corporal Madkins unhurt. Aircraft PM*J a write-off.
Tom Fitzgerald was later awarded the DFC for this action.

Re: Info on 103 Fairey Battle losses on the continent during mid-May, 1940

The photo posted by Revi 16, of the !2 sdn Battle is PH-A. I dont know what its serail number is. I have a photo of the same Battle from a slightly different angle.

Dave

Re: Info on 103 Fairey Battle losses on the continent during mid-May, 1940

I think there are a lot of problems with published attributions of Fairey Battle losses in France. The records of the time are not always accurate, sometimes conflict, and sometimes information emerges post publication.

I am working on a list that can be put on the web, although there is much common ground with a lot of attributions I have some significant differences. When I am comfortable with the list I will post it and doubtless it may prompt more responses and clarifications.

In the meantime a few quick comments on this thread.

K9408 was transferred from 103 to 88 Sqn and was badly damaged with that squadron - class II for collection 21 May
Fitzgerald crash was P2191, PM*K
It is worth also noting that a number of Battles were sent to France that are not recorded L5446 (PM*N) was such a plane.

Kind regards

Iain

Re: Info on 103 Fairey Battle losses on the continent during mid-May, 1940

Iain,

You are spot on with your comments and I welcome the day when your own research finds a wider audience.

Picking up on a specific point, can you please confirm your source(s) for allocating P2191 PM*K as FITZGERALD's aircraft on 14 May 1940 ? As you must know, I have him flying K9374 PM*J on that sortie but am always happy when proved to be wrong. Many thanks.