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-   -   35 ShAP-KBF losses on 21 June 1944 (http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/showthread.php?t=50219)

Laurent Rizzotti 12th January 2018 16:45

35 ShAP-KBF losses on 21 June 1944
 
Hello,

I would like to know the losses of 35 ShAP on 21 June 1944 and especially the name and fare of the gunner of the Il-2 of St. Leytenant Petr Iosifovich Maksyuta, who was killed when his Il-2 was shot down by Uffz Erich Knöbel of 5./JG 54 at 0930 hrs (Finnish/German time, 1030 hrs Soviet time) according to my sources.

I have been able to find another man of 35 ShAP killed that day, serzhant Konstantin Mikhaylovich Loskutov, but a source says he was lost to Flak.

In the same battle, a Fw 190 was claimed by Leitenant Vladimir Alexeevich Tikhomirov of 12 IAP-KBF and Knöbel was shot and killed. Tikhomirov survived the war and in an interview recalled the fight, saying that one Il-2 was hit but could force-land on Seskar Island. The pilot was Mladshii Leitenant Nelidov of 35 ShAP-KBF.

So I have two questions regarding 35 ShAP that day:
_ how much aircraft were shot down in the battle at 0930/1030 ? One or two ?
_ can someone confirm when and where Maksyuta and Loskutov were killed, especially were they killed together ?

Thanks in advance

HGabor 13th January 2018 00:38

Re: 35 ShAP-KBF losses on 21 June 1944
 
Personal records say that both were shot down by flak. Pilot and gunner as well. Since I found no other 35 ShAP loss that day, I think they flew the very same plane and were killed together in the crash.

Monaco 13th January 2018 18:33

Re: 35 ShAP-KBF losses on 21 June 1944
 
There was another VVS-KBF Il-2 loss on 21.06.44 though maybe not referring to this combat:
ml.Lt. N.A. Vargin and ml.serzhant V.V. Gubin of 8 ShAP both KIA.

Other Il-2 losses over Karelia were (incomplete):
On 21.06.44 Ml.Lt. Mikhayl Dmitriyevich Drozdov (st. pilot) & St.Serzh. Grigoriy Filippovich Sotnev (air gunner) of 17 GShAP (257 SAD, 7 VA) were s/d by enemy flak and KIA.

On 21.06.44 St.Lt. Aleksandr Semenovich Polikko (AE leader), Ml.Lt. Mikhayl Aleksandrovich Pugachev (flight leader), St.Serzh. Pavel Dmitriyevich Ivanov (air gunner) and Ml.Serzh. Semen Egorovich Zuvarev (air gunner) of 694 ShAP (257 SAD, 7 VA) FTR from a combat mission - MIA.

II./JG.54 claimed 1 more Il-2 at 08.22h and 7 more in a combat between 12.50-13.50h. Finnish Bf.109 pilots Luutn Lumme (Llv 24) 1 Il-2 over Papula between 08.40-09.30h, Maj Luukkanen and Luutn Karhila 1 Il-2 each between over Tali and Tienhaara 12.55-14.10h.

Has someone more Il-2 losses of 7 VA or VVS-KBF?

Monaco 13th January 2018 18:37

Re: 35 ShAP-KBF losses on 21 June 1944
 
Addition from Stenman/ Keskinen:
13 VA lost 10 Il-2s over the Isthmus this day including 5 from 999 ShAP (maybe the combat between 12.50-13.50), 1 Il-2 of 703 ShAP and 1 of 872 ShAP. KBF lost 4 Il-2s, 4 La-5s, 2 LaGG-3s to II./JG.54 and Finnish flak.

HGabor 13th January 2018 20:03

Re: 35 ShAP-KBF losses on 21 June 1944
 
On June 21, 1944 13 VA, 277 ShAD, 999 ShAP IL-2m3 (S/N: 303144, AM-38F engine serial no.: 4519282) has been shot down by German fighters in the Pertti area. Pilot, ml.lt Vladimir Vasilyevich Kesarev (1916) was injured, gunner, Sgt. Valentin Fedorovich Chistyakov (1925) was killed.

Kari Lumppio 16th January 2018 21:52

Re: 35 ShAP-KBF losses on 21 June 1944
 
Hello!

I am sorry that I cannot answer right away because of other workload.

First. 35 ShAP was naval KBF unit and their operational area was Gulf of Finland, coast and sea.

I have gone through most of Finnish AAA unit diaries and do have hazy recollection that indeed 35 ShAP lost some planes 20.-22. June 1944 to "ZA" which matched the diary entries. I never did do systematic research and all my notes are/were with pen on paper. That was back in the golden days of the Sota-arkisto.

13 VA, KBF and II GIAK PVO were the Soviet air assets operating over Karelian Isthmus and it's coastal area.

The 7VA operated over Aunus (Olonets) north of Lake Ladoga. 7 VA units should not be mixed in this theme.

I believe JG 54 fought more inland during this period (16.-21.6.1944) and most of the 999 ShAP Il-2 in 21.6.1944 were IIRC shot down by Quarda's pair (JG 54). A Finnish AAA diary mentions two or three of them. There was also FinnAF claims same time and area.

In the coastal area worked mostly KBF and around the Koivisto Island ("Bjorko" = Björk ö (swedish) = Birch Island) area I think. JG 54 did not go over there? Perhaps on passing. I may be wrong, too.

June 21st was busy day so the puzzle still needs research. If anyone of you does have 13 VA, II GIAK and KBF war diary entries I would be interested. It would be nice to see the overrall air picture above Karelian Isthmus that day. Well, the Finnish side is clear, of course. Germans and Soviets are the "problem" as always.

I wish I had time to devote to researching this or even finding my notes among the mess!


Cheers,
Kari

I think these two TOCH threads belong to the same area and period:

IL-2 vs JG 54
http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/showthread.php?t=8799
(it was confusing me even 10 years ago!)

Death of Helmut Grollmuss
http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/showth...ighlight=jg+54
(June 19th, JG 54 covering troops over inland area)

Laurent Rizzotti 16th January 2018 23:33

Re: 35 ShAP-KBF losses on 21 June 1944
 
Thanks for the replies, I am myself busy with works and sick kids, so had no time to use all the data for the moment

Kari, do you know the website https://pamyat-naroda.ru/ops/ ? It displays WWII Soviet documents (as page pictures), including diaries/reports of air units. I don't know if one is available for the date and area, I haven't checked and I can't read Russian

Kari Lumppio 17th January 2018 09:36

Re: 35 ShAP-KBF losses on 21 June 1944
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Laurent Rizzotti (Post 245924)
Kari, do you know the website https://pamyat-naroda.ru/ops/ ? It displays WWII Soviet documents (as page pictures), including diaries/reports of air units. I don't know if one is available for the date and area, I haven't checked and I can't read Russian

Salut!

I did take a quick glimpse. Did not see any diaries included. May be me.

In any case the map of Vyborg operation shows again the "third defensive line" which is purely Soviet pre- and misconception.

Finnish troops retreated from the "second defensive line" behind the Vuoksi river without any planned defensive lines between. Local delaying battles were fought, yes. You can see it for example in Finnish diaries regarding the Grollmuss case.

The biggest battles were fought after the official Vyborg operation (20.6.44 ->) and Soviet advance was stopped. This period is nicely left of from official Soviet histories as it was not part of any (successful) operation. I believe the "overtime" operation was ad hoc to make the most out of the situtation.

Cheers,
Kari

Laurent Rizzotti 17th January 2018 12:16

Re: 35 ShAP-KBF losses on 21 June 1944
 
Hello Kari, sorry bad link given, go to https://pamyat-naroda.ru/documents and search for example "шап". I can only translate the titles but it seem to me you can see a lot of reports of various Shap units. You can do the same with VA, IAP, etc...

Sadly you can't research "999 шап": it returns all results with 999 or шап.


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