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Re: Friendly fire WWII
A few more personal remembrances from those at the sharp end...
29 August 1944 Bf 109G of JG 302 was shot down by a German fighter from the same unit: "... Once again I was in the first wave, and again the B-17s opened fire very early ... my first burst was directed at the tail gunner: he had the widest field of fire to the rear and was the greatest threat to me ... Although I had not yet completed my attack and my rounds were dead on target, tracers from the man behind me were passing close to my Bf 109. Then the inevitable happened: there were several hard blows in the rear of my machine. I had been hit by one of my own people and I knew that I had to go down ... my tail surfaces had been badly damaged. The aircraft was extremely nose heavy ... My forced-landing took place near Ungarisch-Brod in the Banor area of Moravia. I never did discover the identity of the impatient comrade whom I had to thank for the subsequent train ride ..." Willi Reschke I. Gruppe/JG 302 2 March 1945 Now flying Ta 152H fighters with the high-altitude Staffel of JG 301, the same pilot recounts how they were misidentified and attacked by Bf 109s from his own outfit: "... On this day the newly formed IV./JG 301 flew its first major mission against enemy bombers as part of the Geschwader. Equipped with the Bf 109 G-10, those Staffeln initially caused some confusion. III. Gruppe ... put a mixed group of fighters in the air, twelve Ta 152s and about the same number of Fw 190 A-8s and A-9s. The Ta 152s, which were led by Oberleutnant Stahl, climbed to altitude very quickly and flew far above the rest of the formation ... flying at a height of over 8,000 meters, and there they encountered a formation of Bf 109s. The pilots of the Ta 152s were certainly not upset by this unexpected reinforcement, especially as the aircraft wore the same yellow and red fuselage band. But seconds later we could not believe our eyes: the group of Bf 109s opened up on us and the first tracers flashed by. Unteroffizier Blum was the first to be attacked, and his immediate warning made us realize the situation we were suddenly in. There was immediate confusion and the radio traffic that followed did nothing to change the situation. The leader of the Ta 152 Staffel received the order to 'Climb up and stay with the formation!' But even this did no good, for the Geschwader's own Bf 109s continued to pursue and attack. It was not possible to determine whether it was just Bf 109s of our own unit that were chasing us or if there were also fighters from other units. The Ta 152 pilots found themselves in a situation which words can scarcely describe: we were all fleeing from our own comrades, whom we did not want to shoot down. Many came to realize just how small and pitiful one feels when he is unable to defend himself. The Ta 152s were thus scattered to the four winds by our own fighters and took no further part in the mission ... " Willi Reschke III. Gruppe/JG 301 See p.146-147, 228-230, Reschke, Willi. Jagdgeschwader 301/302 "Wilde Sau" (Atglen, PA: Schiffer Books, 2005). * * * 18 September 1940 RAF Spitfire R6772 was shot down by a Spitfire over Canterbury: "... I'm quite sure it was another Spitfire that did me in. Because I saw this other aircraft and I turned to display my wing plan, which is the obvious one because the 109s had straight-edged wings cut off at the tips and the Spitfire had this elliptical wing, so that it was an instant recognition for him. So I let him see it. But it was too late and he shot off his bolt, and it hit me in the petrol tank. The only thing to be done was get out of the barbecue as quickly as possible. The flames were coming out and sort of burning off my uniform, and a bit of me in the process. And the next thing I knew I was floating down through the air without an aircraft ..." Iain Hutchinson 222 Squadron, RAF See video interview from the television documentary series Spitfire Ace (2000). * * * 15 October 1940 RAF Spitfire X4418 was shot down by a Spitfire over Maidstone: "... I was shot down at the end of a battle -- and by a Spitfire! This actually happened quite often -- a Spitfire shooting down a Spitfire. With inexperienced chaps and the sky full of planes, there wasn't all that much difference between our fighters and theirs at certain angles. We camouflaged the planes at first, trying to make the wretched things invisible, but then our own anti-aircraft guns used to go for us, so we gave them a more spectacular underside. The incident in question happened over Maidstone on October 15, 1940. There had been an engagement and I was gliding back to Biggin Hill after using up all my ammunition ... I throttled back at about 25,000 feet. There was nothing in the sky except three Spitfires behind me. Then suddenly -- bang! The aeroplane was full of holes. I was bloody indignant I can tell you. All at once I realised, 'Christ! I've got to bail out!' I had a bullet through one leg and my controls had gone. I had to get out! As I was parachuting down I remembered that I was wearing a German Mae West! It was one that had been taken from a crashed plane -- they were a sight more comfortable than ours. At that I began to get very worried. There I was dangling on my parachute going down outside Maidstone, and I could see a crowd gathering below. What if someone decided to take a shot at me, I thought! I believe there were instructions then to the Home Guard on how to deal with parachutists -- apparently some of the Germans were coming down disguised as nuns! So one instruction said, 'In order to ascertain sex of the parachutist, put hand up up skirt.' Those were certainly desperate times! Anyhow, I landed safely, and the crowd soon realised from my language that I was English. In fact, as I said, it was by no means uncommon to be shot down by your own planes. I could name you a half dozen who were -- the commander of Biggin Hill for one. And another chap I know of was deliberately shot down and killed by his own squadron. They didn't like him, apparently ..." Brian Kingcombe 92 Squadron, RAF See p.72-74, Haining, Peter, ed. The Spitfire Log: A 50th Anniversary Tribute to the World's Most Famous Fighter Plane (London: Souvenir Press Ltd., 1985). * * * May 1941 RAF Blenheims and FAA Fulmars were attacked by British Navy AA fire: "... On Crete, we spent most of our time escorting convoys -- and I think I am right in saying that we never lost a ship. Escorting the Navy with fighter Blenheims was not funny, we looked too much like Ju88s. Despite approaching the convoy into the sun, line astern, undercarriage down, at 1,000 feet ahead of the convoy, furiously firing off the colour of the day, they still plastered us. And the sight of a cruiser such as HMS Carlisle letting rip with all its guns was not a pretty sight if you were on the wrong side of the barrel. It became quite dangerous ... we had one more go when the Fleet Air Arm, who had a couple of Fulmars there, said they would lead us out to a big convoy which had eight destroyers as escort, saying, "They never shoot at us". They did, and the Fulmars high-tailed it for home and were never seen again. In another incident, Flt Sgt Innes-Smith, flying a Blenheim, having established his identity with the convoy he was protecting, was turning to intercept an oncoming Dornier Do 17 onto which he had been 'vectored'. As he was closing to attack he was hit and nearly shot down by RN AA fire. Fortunately he just managed to crash-land back at Maleme! ..." John Jarvis 30 Squadron, RAF See p.60, Forty, George. Battle of Crete (London: Ian Allan Publishers, 2001). * * * September 1943 USAAF A-36 fighter-bombers were attacked by British Navy AA fire and FAA Seafires during the Salerno landings; U.S. ground troops attacked by their own fighters: " ... We took off from our landing ground at San Antonio, Sicily, at first light on 9 September 1943. Our assignment was to fly the Salerno-Agripoli patrol line as soon as we reached the beachhead. We proceeded to the north end of Salerno and then turned south ... About this time the sky turned white beneath me. The British Navy had fired a barrage of 40mm guns at us. At this time, Buzzy Sheftel, the controller on duty aboard the aircraft control ship, called me and said that our ships were firing at us. I replied to Buzzy that I knew that and that I thought I would move over and fly where the Germans were because the shooting was not as intense over there! ... We had suspected that the British would be 'trigger happy'. During the Battle of Britain, the square wing tipped airplanes were the Me 109s and the round tipped airplanes were the Spitfires and Hurricanes. That thought was ingrained into the minds of the British. In 1943, the Me 109F and -G had round wing tips, the A-36A had square wing tips. Prior to the invasion of Salerno, we had sent an A-36 to Malta for the British to see. We had hoped they would realise that square wing tips were on our side now. We found out that it was the British Navy's policy to shoot at all airplanes that flew overhead. We did not receive an order or letter to that effect; we found out by getting shot at! We learned quickly... Some British carriers were providing Seafire aircraft for the patrol line between Salerno and Capri. They lasted about a week! Word was that they damaged all of their aircraft trying to land on the carriers. They spent most of their time when they were aloft, attacking the other Allied aircraft which were also on patrol. At first, we took evasive action. Later, because of their vague idea of what constituted a 'curve of pursuit', we did not pay much attention to them. We figured that they needed the practice but they never seemed to get themselves into a position where they could do damage to another aircraft! ... As for getting shot at by the Royal Navy, we got shot at as often by our own troops and we shot and dropped bombs on our own troops quite often. One day in the spring of 1944, we got a message from our higher Headquarters. It pointed out that there had been thirteen instances in one day where our airplanes had shot at or dropped bombs on our own troops. The next person who did it would face a court-martial. The following day, there were fourteen instances where we shot up our own troops! The outcome of our getting shot at by the Royal Navy was that we were ordered not to attack a ship at sea in the Mediterranean. During the winter and spring of 1943-44 the Germans ran small boats and Siebel Ferries up and down the west coast of Italy. The Navy did not attack them and we did not give a damn whether they did or not, because we just bombed them when they reached a port ... " Joseph Kelly 27th Fighter Bomber Group, USAAF See p.121-123, Smith, Peter. Straight Down! The North American A-36 Dive-Bomber in Action (Manchester, UK: Crécy, 2000). |
Re: Friendly fire WWII
Gor Blimey!
Super stuff, Six Nifty. May I ask you to e-mail me: briancull@author.freeserve.co.uk Cheers Brian |
Re: Friendly fire WWII
E-mail on the way.
p.s. My previous post has been slightly edited, for anyone who wants the latest version. A few comments were added that I had forgotten in my haste. |
Re: Friendly fire WWII
Hi guys
More information has come to light regarding the friendly fire incidents that occurred on 21 December 1943 near the Somme Estuary, when two Typhoons of 609 Squadron and a Spitfire of 501 Squadron were lost to US fighters. It appears that 78thFG claimed three FW190s and a Bf109 in the same area and at the same time. Can anyone provide details of the 78thFG claims? Cheers Brian |
Re: Friendly fire WWII
Hi Brian
Is the 21-12-43 the right date ? I have no 78th FG claims for this date! Cheers David |
Re: Friendly fire WWII
Hi David
Correct date. Perhaps the claims were not allowed when the facts became known? But there should be details somewhere, or was it a complete cover up? Cheers Brian |
Re: Friendly fire WWII
David, they are in daily claims and casualties log. I presume that is what has been claimed until it was realised what they actually had shot down. I suppose some details must be somewhere but I am not sure where to look.
Cheers |
Re: Friendly fire WWII
I think it is an usual practice for most air forces to "forget" claims known to have been friendly planes shot down in error, so it don't surprise me that the claim list of 78th FG shows nothing for this day. But the actual mission report should say more.
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Re: Friendly fire WWII
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" ... December 21, 1943 was a black day for the 78th because through poor aircraft recognition four RAF Typhoons were shot down by mistake in a bounce during a B-26 area support near Doullens, France. It should also be stated that in the same fight, RAF Spitfires also shot down one of their own Typhoons, making five in all lost to faulty identification. After three days of investigation, the pertinent intelligence officers were disciplined and the four pilots involved were transferred from the Group ... " " ... Combat was not always necessarily with the enemy. On July 5th, [1944] Jack Miller, 83rd Squadron, had to abort the mission over France when his P-47 developed failing oil pressure. He got separated from his escorting wingman in the clouds over the Seine Bay just before several British Spitfires bounced him and shot his P-47 out from under him, causing an immediate bailout into the Channel. Later he was picked by an Allied beach patrol and flown back to Duxford from a beachhead strip. Other than some mental upset and physical exhaustion, he was unharmed ... " See p.43-44, and p.70, Fry, Garry. The Eagles of Duxford: The 78th Fighter Group in World War II (St. Paul, MN: Phalanx Publishing, 1991). |
Re: Friendly fire WWII
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I was looking through The Royal Air Force of World War Two: In Color and chanced upon a color photo of Squadron Leader Skalski's Spitfire EN459. The picture was made sometime after the aircraft crash-landed at Gabes with Flight Lieutenant Horbaczewski at the controls. The photo shows the Spitfire with wings and front cowl removed; the fuselage was propped up on a stand and a few mechanics appear to be working on the engine or perhaps removing it. |
Re: Friendly fire WWII
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I am not sure if this is Freeman's book, if so, there is a colour photo of 309 Sqn Mustang taken at USAAF airfield and credited to the late Stan Wyglendowski. I think it was actually taken by a one of US correspondents and I would love to learn where to look for a better copy. Quote:
Cheers |
Re: Friendly fire WWII
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I have looked at the 11 group ORB and the 78th F.G. claims are there but they give no pilot names. So would think you are right and they were not allowed. I have the report of the days missions 21-12-43 and 501 and 609 Sqns ORB, but I suppose you have these ? any way if you whant scans just let me know. Cheers David PS I have no other details of the 78th FG BTW. |
Re: Friendly fire WWII
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Yes as allways you are right? I would think there may be a report of this in the U.S. or could it be at Kew ? Cheers David BTW I have the info you whant, will send it soon. |
Re: Friendly fire WWII
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Cheers |
Re: Friendly fire WWII
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Lieutenant Charles W. Silsby, 84th FS. One FW-190. Lieutenant William F. Hunt, 84th FS. One FW-190. Lieutenant Gray H. Doyle, 84th FS. One FW-190. Captain John D. Irvin, 84th FS. One ME-109. Silsby was later promoted to Captain, and was KIA on April 15th, 1944, with the 84th FS. Hunt was later promoted to Captain, and was KIA on June 10th, 1944, with the 84th FS. Doyle was later promoted to Captain, and was KIA on September 5th, 1944, with HQ, 78th FG. Irvin was later promoted to Major, and moved to VIII Fighter Command on March 17th, 1944. I was not able to determine the names of the four pilots who were drummed out of the group as a result of the disaster on December 21st, 1943. Perhaps Frank Olynyk has other information. |
Re: Friendly fire WWII
Speaking of bad days, I am seeking to fill in the blanks on incomplete data regarding September 14th, 1940. Can anyone sort this out and tell us who did all the shooting:
RAF Hurricane P3209. 73 Squadron. Shot down by a Spitfire and made forced-landing at Gravesend. Sergeant Leng was not injured. See Francis Mason / Battle Over Britain, p.385. Serial number from Francis Mason / The Hawker Hurricane, p.221, and Winston Ramsey / The Battle of Britain: Then and Now, p.448. RAF Hurricane L2039. 73 Squadron. Shot down by a Spitfire near Tonbridge. Squadron Leader M. W. S. Robinson was injured bailing out. See Francis Mason / Battle Over Britain, p.385. Serial number from Winston Ramsey / The Battle of Britain: Then and Now, p.448, and Norman L. R. Franks / RAF Fighter Command Losses, vol. I, p.82. RAF Hurricane; serial unknown. 73 Squadron. Shot down by a Spitfire near Maidstone. Sergeant J. J. Griffin bailed out without injuries. See Francis Mason / Battle Over Britain, p.385. RAF Hurricane V7209. 73 Squadron. Damaged in attack by a Spitfire over Tilbury. Aircraft hit in the radiator and Flight Lieutenant M. L. ff Beytaugh made a forced landing at West Malling without injury. See Francis Mason / Battle Over Britain, p.385, and Winston Ramsey / The Battle of Britain: Then and Now, p.448. RAF Hurricane L1981. 73 Squadron. Damaged in attack by a Spitfire. Pilot landed without injury, his name withheld. See Winston Ramsey / The Battle of Britain: Then and Now, p.448. RAF Hurricane; serial unknown. 73 Squadron. Damaged in attack by a Spitfire. Pilot Officer R. A. Marchand landed without injury. See Francis Mason / Battle Over Britain, p.385. |
Re: Friendly fire WWII
Thanks David, Franek and Six Nifty for your responses - excellent, and surely we now have the identities of the four pilots involved.
Regarding your query re 73 Squadron on 14 September 1940, I have a note that the squadron responsible was probably 603. I have to invesigate further. This is what I have: 14 September was an unlucky day for 73 Squadron operating from Castle Camps, its Hurricanes having been attacked by Spitfires in error – possibly aircraft from 603 Squadron - over Tilbury just after 1600. Flt Lt Mike Beytagh force-landed V7209 at West Malling after his aircraft had been hit in the radiator, while Sgt Maurice Leng managed to force-land his damaged machine (P3209) at Gravesend. This was Leng’s second incident, having been shot down by ‘friendly fire’ the previous month. The Hurricanes flown by Flg Off Don Scott (L1981/TP-B) and Plt Off Roy Marchard (P2869) both returned to base with damage inflicted by the Spitfires, but Sgt John Brimble failed to return. It was believed that he had also been shot down by one of the Spitfires and his aircraft (P2543/TP-D) crashed at Parkhouse Farm, Chart Sutton near Maidstone. Bristol-born Brimble was killed. One of the few to escape the onslaught was Flg Off Smudger Smith, who reported that he had seen a Spitfire breaking away following an attack on a Hurricane, which fell away obviously damaged. Smith pursued the Spitfire down to 3,000 feet but could no catch up with it. On the same date, Flt Lt John Freeborn and his section from 74 Squadron scrambled and intercepted a Bf110, which was chased through cloud as the Spitfires manoeuvred to carry out individual attacks. In the confusion Plt Off Bob Spurdle (P7355) accidentally fired at Freeborn’s aircraft (P7366), inflicting slight damage only and Freeborn was not hurt. You will note that the identities of those involved differ to your list, Six Nifty. Cheers Brian |
Re: Friendly fire WWII
Gentlemen!
Your combined expertise promptly provided answers to the 20/12/43 tragedy, so how about these: 9 August 1943: B-26 41-31634 555BS/386BG was shot down by an RAF Spitfire. Has anyone identities and fate of crew? Identity/squadron of Spitfire pilot? I have just 'discovered' that 1/Lt Dick A Tucker and his crew were killed. 3 December 1943: B-17 554BS damaged by friendly fire and 2/Lt John B. Kennedy was wounded. What type of friendly fire (apart from being unfriendly) and location of incident? 23 March 1944: Two P-47s attacked RAF launch HSL2706 in mistake for German E-boat off Dutch coast. Who were the pilots? What squadron/group? Over to you, guys. Cheers Brian |
Re: Friendly fire WWII
Thanks Brian. Were you able to figure out why Francis Mason, Norman Franks, and Winston Ramsay all reported different results for the same day?
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Re: Friendly fire WWII
Sorry Six Nifty - I am not privy to the workings of minds of great men!!
Thanks for the note re 360FS, Please note that I now have details of the crew and their fates regarding the B-26 downed on 9/8/43 - but not the identity of the RAF pilot responsibe. Cheers Brian |
Re: Friendly fire WWII
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for this day I have the following six airmen of 555th BS who died this day: Staff Sergeant Allen J. Crosswell, buried Netherlands Second Lieutenant Patrick J. Kelly, MIA Technical Sergeant John P. Ryan, MIA First Lieutenant Paul E. Scharding, MIA First Lieutenant Dick A. Tucker, MIA Staff Sergeant Bernard T. Zukosky, MIA. I don't know any more loss for 555th BS this day so these 6 men were probably the crew of this bomber. But I have no definitive proof. |
Re: Friendly fire WWII
Many thanks Laurent. I wonder who the Spitfire pilot was?
On 27/6/44 an L-4 of 87th Field Artillery was shot down - does anyone know identity and fate of crew. Also, two more L-4s were shot down in July 1944. Any details? I have found some more details: The L-4 shot down on 27/6/44 was flown by 2/Lts Robert R. McAnninch and Chales R. Wood Jr, both US Army, who were killed; on 31/7/44 L-4 was shot down although both Lt Robert C. Campbell and 2/Lt John T. Maguire, both US Army, survived unhurt; on 27/3/45 L-4 shot down although Lt Campbell and Lt John R. Berry survived. On all three occasions it is believed that the L-4s were hit by shells fired by 87th Field Artillery. Can anyone confirm these details, and also provide serial numbers of the L-4s? Did other US Army Artillery units that had L-4s attached lose aircraft in this manner? On 6/10/44 the 335thFS/4thFG shot down a Me410 near Heligoland at 1100. Who was the claimant? PS: I now have this information! Cheers Brian |
Re: Friendly fire WWII
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" ... One of the first operations [from Chiringa], flown by Pilot Officer Trigwell and his navigator, Pilot Officer Chippendale, leading Flight Sergeant McDowall and Sergeant Cooper, ended in most unusual circumstances. They had been briefed to attack road transport on the Taungup Pass, between Taungup and Prome. Without warning they were attacked over the target area by two USAAF Lockheed P-38 Lightnings. Neither Beaufighter survived the attack, although Trigwell, after hitting a mangrove tree, was able to crash land his aircraft in about four feet of water. Triggy was uninjured, but Chips was badly wounded in the back by cannon shells and was unable to move. With much difficulty, Triggy was able to get Chips out. He recovered what he could of the medical supplies, including a few tubes of morphine and, by cutting up a parachute he was able to bandage the eight perforations in his navigator's back. That night, he bought a boat, but either he was betrayed by the Burmese or the Japanese had been able to locate the crashed aircraft, for they were taken prisoner just after dark. Chips died four days later whilst they were being transferred from the mangrove swamps to Taungup, and Triggy finally arrived in Rangoon as a prisoner of war on Christmas Eve 1944 ... Triggy's camp had 1300 prisoners, 600 of whom were British, American and Dutch, and the rest Chinese and Indian. On 25th April, five months after becoming a prisoner of war, he was one of 400 whom the Japanese selected to be dressed in Japanese clothing and then marched north from Rangoon. On the fifth day when they were north of Pegu, the senior Allied prisoner of war, Brigadier Hobbs, informed the group that the Japanese commandant had left a letter with him saying that they were being freed and that 'they would meet us on the battlefield later'. The prisoners were now on their own and had the job of making contact with the advancing 14th Army, and their main problem being that they were dressed in Japanese clothing. Over the five previous days they had been subject to considerable harassment by way of bombings and cannon strafing by RAF Mosquitos but suffered no casualties. Eventually, when they reached suitable terrain, they made from their clothing a large Union Jack and a message: '400 BRITISH POWS HERE PLEASE DROP RADIO'. In due course, they decided that RAF aircraft had spotted the signs but, much to their surprise, they suddenly found themselves being attacked by three Hurricanes with bombs and machine-guns with one unfortunate killing, that of Brigadier Hobbs ... " See p.106-107, Innes, David. Beaufighters Over Burma: No. 27 Squadron, RAF, 1942-45. Blandford Press, 1985. |
Re: Friendly fire WWII
Hi guys
I am not familiar with MACR reports. How does one go about obtaining a copy? I need to look at MACR 8340 which, I believe, covers the loss of a U-61 43-14844 (on 23/8/44) attached to the 27thFBG. Please advise me where to apply (by e-mail or letter?). Many thanks Brian |
Re: Friendly fire WWII
Brian
I will try to drop you a line later today or tomorrow in this regard. |
Re: Friendly fire WWII
Many thanks Franek - I have received the details.
Two more friendly fire incidents that I hope someone will be able to confirm and provide further details: 17/4/41 Ju88C (2123) R4+BM of 4/NJG2 believed shot down by Ju88C flown by Ltn Heinz Volkner of 3/NJG2 over UK 24/7/41 Ju88C (8054) R4+LM of 4/NJG2 believed shot down by Ju88C of I/NJG2 over UK Cheers Brian |
Re: Friendly fire WWII
Hello,
Just finished Rick Atkinson’s „An Army at Dawn”, the war in North Africa, 1942-1943, where there are a few references to “friendly fire” from that time and area. I thought this one quite interesting: “On the rare occasions when Allied planes dominated the skies, fratricide added to the ground troops’ torment. Word soon spread of an incident near Medjez-el-Bab, where a company of American tank destroyers was helping secure the town on thanksgiving morning (Thursday, November 26, 1942) when eleven U.S. P.38 Lightnings flew over. Jubilant at the unexpected help from friendly fighters, the tank destroyer crews raced across the open terrain, waving and smiling. Built with distinctive twin fuselages, the P.38s languidly circled until the sun was behind them, then dropped to fifty feet and executed five textbook strafing runs in three minutes. The attack all but destroyed the shocked company, which fired not a single retaliatory shot. Five men were killed – including the unit’s only World War I veteran – and sixteen wounded; nearly every vehicle and antitank weapon was destroyed or damaged. One outraged company commander in the 1st Armored Division ordered his men to shoot any airborne object larger than a goose. And another bromide circulated among American soldiers: “if it flies, it dies”. Allied pilots grew so accustomed to being fired upon by their own troops that the formula for recognizing enemy aircraft from the ground, “WEFT” - check the Wings, Engines, Fuselage, Tails – was said to mean “Wrong every fucking time.” Friendly greetings Hans Krensler |
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Many thanks for the extract, Hans, much appreciated.
TonyK - thanks also for the offer. I have written to Maxwell and requested a copy of the MACR in which I am interested, so hopefully something may turn up soon! Thanks all the same. Cheers Brian |
Re: Friendly fire WWII
Hi
Another friendly fire incident has come my way: On the night of 23/24 July 1944 a USAAF A-20J (43-9440) was shot down by a British or American aircraft and two crew killed. Has anyone further information, please? Cheers Brian |
Re: Friendly fire WWII
In today's Washington Post newspaper (12/8/05) is an Obituary for Lt. Gen. William Yarborough (92 years old) and it comments that he was a battilion commander who encountered one of war's grimmest task, friendly fire. During the invasion of Sicily on the night of July 10, 1943 at least 23 Air Transport planes (C-47s) loaded with airborne troops were shot down by US Navy ships and land AA fire who had been firing at retreating Lutftwaffe aircraft. I've done a little research and seen varying reports of up to 37 total Allied aircraft downed that night by friendly fire, with up to 400 troops as casaulties. Some of the previous posts in this thread do have an individual aircraft being taken down that night by friendly fire, but I've never heard of this many at once.
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Re: Friendly fire WWII
Well, remember that the Navy got the word that any a/c flying towards Sicily should be considered an Allied a/c. Any a/c flying out from Sicily was to be considered an enemy a/c. Or is what I repeated just an urban myth? It's hard to believe that anyone would issue such an order, but I have found that it's foolish to disregard even the most stupid-sounding stories.
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Re: Friendly fire WWII
Since all armies were notorious for their lousy a/c recognition, what faith can we put in the accuracy of the a/c mentioned in the excellent reports as given us by 6-nifty-fifties?
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Re: Friendly fire WWII
Hi TonyK
I believe Luftwaffe losses during Operation Bodeplatte must constitute the sad and tragic record. My assessment of losses during the Sicily campaign will appear in Volume Two of 'Blue-on-Blue in WWII' which will cover ME and FE incidents. However, please note thatVolume One is still being worked on, as you are undoubtedly aware! I would suggest offhand that your figures for losses re 10/7/43 (Sicily) are fairly accurate. Cheers Brian |
Re: Friendly fire WWII
Futher to the inpuy from6 Nifty Fifties
January 1944 USAAF P-40 Warhawks accidentally strafed an RAF airfield near Trigno, Italy. Amount of damage and casualties if any were unspecified. See p.111, Bickers, Richard Townshend. Friendly Fire: Accidents in Battle from Ancient Greece to the Gulf War (London: Leo Cooper, 1994). A quote from Robin Browns book on 112 Sqn RAF Edited for clarity On the 29th of April, 1944, Cutella airfield home to 112 Sqn was straffed by four USAAF P-47 Thunderbolts returning from an escort mission for Liberators and Fortresses bombing near Weiner Neustadh. Making landfall near Vasto the Americans, who were uncertain of their position, saw a Warhawk landing at Cutella. This machine carried a white spinner, unlike the normal red spinners of the RAF machines in the area at that time, and the Americans thought it was a Bf109, They came in line abreast, and opened fire. Three aircraft belonging to 260 and 450 Sqns were damaged and WO Roland C. Glew, DFM, of 293 Air-Sea Rescue Sqn detachment, was killed. Glew, who piloted a Walrus, was married and the father of three children, but what made this costly mistake particularly upsetting was that Glew had recently rescued a number of American aircrew who had ditched in the Adriatic, Later when the CO of the thunderbolt Group, which was based at Foggia, flew in to offer his apologies he was nearly lynched. All references to the incident where hushed up and personnel were forbidden tp write home about it and there is no mention of it in 112 Sqn records. Others involving 112 Sqn aircraft Kittyhawk Mk. I AK694/ GA Y, Sgt Cedric Don Young, 411490 RNZAF, 15/9/42, A/C shot down by own AA fire over point 878282, destroyed Homuth, pilot badly burned, 64th hospital stay did not return to 112 Sqn 31/10/40 Gladiator I, serial N/A,Plt Off Richard Alvin"Acky" Acworth,DFC, 40486 RAF, destroyed in collision in combat Mersa Matruh collided with E R Smith both had to bale out Gladiator Mk I, 2/LT E R Smith SAAF, "C" Flight pilot, do not know his service number, A/C destroyed in combat collision Mersa Matruh collided with Acworth both baled out Cheers Robert |
Re: Friendly fire WWII
An interesting story:
Source : "Journal of combat missions page3.htm" B-17 96th BG Extrait Mission No. 15 -- Emden, Germany December 11, 1943 On December 11, we made our second raid on the submarine base at Emden, my fifteenth mission, with more than 500 bombers participating. There was a very strong headwind as we left our home base. The group ahead lost three B-17s before we reached the French coast, and lost five more after that. We lost no ships from our group, although one crew was very thankful to be able to make it back home. One of our crews in the high squadron had a malfunctioning bomb rack which delayed release of its bombs. One of its bombs dropped onto the wing of an airplane under it, and stayed there. The pilot flew the plane gingerly enough that he was able to return to base safely with it on his wing. The following day, we were aroused at 12:30 AM for a mission somewhere, but fortunately the mission was scrubbed before we even reached the Operations shack. View related newspaper article Source: http://www.chez.com/franckruffino/My...Victory_19.htm Someone also told me yesterday on a forum that the Japanese AA fire at Midway shot down in the morning two US aircraft and one A6M2 Zero, no other details. |
Re: Friendly fire WWII
http://www.myisp.net.au/~aldrich/450/herrett.html
31st October 1942: More escorting for "Baltimores" over the Fuka 'drome. Shots were exchanged with some ME109's but no damage was done to us. Twelve of our "Kitty's" did a long-range sweep after lunch. Ten returned. "J" with Sergeant Reid aboard was attacked by two ME109's and went down in flames near Sollum. The two attackers fell to the guns of Flt Lt. Law and Sergeant Borthwick. The CO [Flt Lt Williams] whilst straffing an enemy camp was accidently shot down by Sgt. Harrison. He crash landed in rough country and was seen to get out of his machine. The ground was too rough to effect an immediate rescue. Ammo. dumps, tents, transport and railway sidings were straffed for the rest of the day. No.112 Squadron shot down eight enemy aircraft today - well done. |
Re: Friendly fire WWII
Quote:
However, '400 casualties' or anything close to that number is probably an exaggeration. Of the 23 transports known to be shot down in error, 17 transports were hit after they had dropped their paratroopers. One cause for inflated loss estimates is that the carrier planes (and the parachutists) were widely dispersed because of the AA fire. Many of the troops were initially reported missing, but turned up later. |
Re: Friendly fire WWII
Tundra, Six Fifty and Laurent - thanks for the latest. I'm gathering enough information to write a book!!!
Cheers Brian |
Re: Friendly fire WWII
Quote:
Williams was born in Wellington on May 6 1919. He joined the RAF in January 1938 to take up a short service commission. He is believed to have served with 601 Squadron before being posted to the Middle East, where he flew at different periods with 112, 94 and 260 Squadrons. In June 1942 Wiliams joined 450 Squadron in the Western Desert as a flight commander. On the 18th, leading his flight over Gambut, he shot down a Bf 109. On July 5 he destroyed a Ju 88. Leading the squadron over the El Alamein positions on September 12 1942 Williams destroyed a Ju 87, probably a second and damaged a third. Later in the month, during a sortie against the enemy airfield at Daba, Williams shot down a Ju 88. In October 1942 Williams was awarded the DFC and took command of the squadron. He led it during the Battle of El Alamein. On October 31 he made a forced landing behind German lines and was captured. Williams was in Stalag Luft 3 camp at Sagan in Germany in March 1944. He took part in the Great Escape and was one of fifty men executed by the Gestapo on March 29. (One of 2 , 112 Sqn Pilots to have met that fate) 40652 S/L John E A Williams DFC, Australian, born 6-May-1919, 450 Sqdn, PoW 31-Oct-1942, recaptured near Reichenberg, murdered 29-Mar-1944 by Lux, cremated at Brux Gestapo Chief Dr Wilhelm Scharpwinkel was masquerading as a Lt Hagamann in the No 6 Hospital at Breslau when Frau Gerda Zembrodt, corroborated by Klaus Lonsky, saw Russian officers remove him at gunpoint. During the enquiry into the murders, the Russians refused to co-operate with the Allied investigation, although after much prodding they allowed Scharpwinkel to make a statement, in Moscow, during August and September 1946. Soon afterwards, Scharpwinkel disappeared and although reported dead by the Russians on 17-Oct-1947, was believed to have found a high position in the Soviet administration. He is almost certain to have died by now. He and his associate Lux murdered Cross, Casey, Wiley, Leigh, Pohe and Hake. The next day Lux executed Humphries, McGill, Swain, Hall, Langford, Evans, Valenta, Kolanowski, Stewart and Birkland. The day after that, he executed Kiewnarski, Pawluk, Wernham and Skanzikas. On April 6th, Lux murdered Grisman, J E Williams, Milford, Street and McGarr. Long followed soon after. Lux is also believed to have killed Tobolski and Krol, who vanished in the same area as the others. Lux, with at least twenty-seven murders on his soul, died in the fighting around Breslau at the end of the war. Gunn, killed at Breslau, is likely to have been another of their victims Credited with five victories, Williams also received a Mention in Dispatches. |
Re: Friendly fire WWII
I have details regarding Mosquito shot down by P - 51s on the August 6,44 Shuttle Mission. let me know if interestd.
Mike |
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