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-   -   56th FG - friendly fire case on 4 May 1943 - info needed (http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/showthread.php?t=687)

Ruy Horta 12th March 2005 20:25

I cannot speak for our fellow members, but my inaction has nothing to do with my personal opinion in the matter. IMHO Six Nifties is not being fair to the RAF or the British, but that does not imply that I should act as a moderator.

Your host has no preference when it comes to the RAF or USAAF, if at all, he might lean towards the RAF!!

So lets keep it at that shall we...

Franek Grabowski 12th March 2005 20:26

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Originally Posted by Six Nifty .50s
The question is when the arrengement was done.
Spring 1943.

May is in Spring I think.

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Only because the RAF wanted to direct attention away from their own excessive pilot claims.
In 1941, RAF fighter pilots inflated shootdowns by almost 10:1.
That is an interesting figure, can you prove it?

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That habit was hard to break. On August 23rd 1944, 'Johnnie' Johnson's 127 Wing engaged JG 26 and JG 11 -- the RAF pilots claimed twelve fighters shot down, but my source states the Germans did not lose a single aircraft in those combats. This Spitfire Wing was not an inexperienced outfit, so there was no excuse for their nonsense. In general, one has to question the veracity of RAF evaluation methods for pilot claims -- and those of the Wing Leader, Mr. 40-Victory-Ace.
Well, considering the German records are far from complete and accurate for the period it would be no wonder. Nonetheless I see losses by both units mentioned plus JG2 on that day that possibly could be linked to this combat. By the way, Johnnie Johnson's record was 34+7 destroyed, 3+4 probable and 10+3 damaged. Did you not confuse him with an another well known US ace?

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"...In February 1941, deliveries of the Spitfire Mk V had begun[...]In Britain nobody had yet been able to analyse the effect of cannon fire when aircraft strafed ground forces.
I have to check what I have on this incident.

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Did Livesley or his mates bounce these Mustangs first?
Why such asumption?

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Is that all, Franek?
No.

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You forgot the Allied planes shot down by RAF pilots. (My list has over 100 destroyed or damaged). You did list Franks as a source; surely you must know about some of these?
At what period? I have some hundreds of incidents involving aircraft, artillery or own bombs and guns. For the period in which mentioned incidents occured there were few RAF incidents but there were also some USAAF incidents I did not mention.

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Anyway I've found several hundred friendly fire incidents caused by the RAF and other British military units (sometimes they did hit the target). Far too many cases to paste in here, but someday I will post all findings and sources on a Web site. The most enlightening data came from Allied flyers, soldiers, and sailors -- in reference to the number of times they were attacked by the RAF or British anti-aircraft batteries.
Was Preddy downed by Britts as well?

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Well RAF flyers managed to do this in just three months:
Yes, and they downed about 1200 German aircraft at the same time. Not a bad record. Otherwise the list is not complete nor entirely accurate. Eg. Hurricane P3209 was actually V7209 and damaged not shot down.

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During test flights over the UK, a prototype clipped-wing Spitfire was painted bright yellow -- good idea because, as predicted, RAF pilots often attacked the camouflaged kind.
? Which one and when?

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No other measures taken, eh? Some RAF planes had a solid white stripe wrapped around the fuselage.
It was Sky and introduced together with Sky spinner.

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RAF fighters in the Far East eventually had their roundels reduced in size because they looked uncomfortably similar to Japanese roundels.
Roundels in the Far East had their red circles removed not reduced and I cannot imagine how they could have been similar to Japanese suns.
Another issue is that apparently you believe US did not modify their markings this way.

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I know a measure the RAF should have taken, but didn't. Tell us how many planes with a natural metal finish were shot down by aimed fire from Allied pilots.
I have a couple of Mustangs downed by the other Mustangs, one of them crashed near Warsaw. I cannot give even an approximate number as I have not researched the period. Nonetheless silver 'camouflage' was generally considered an disadvantage - RAF considered it but found it not worth of effort.

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RAF squadrons have not shot down an enemy plane since World War II -- but they have shot down some RAF planes since then.:wink:
Is it deliberate? Of course RAF scored victories post WWII though not in numbers - they were simply not involved in such wars.

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In 2003, there was at least two friendly fire accidents involving British Challenger tanks in Southern Iraq. One Challenger II was destroyed and according to a BBC news report, the turret was torn off the hull when hit by gunfire from another British tank. During the 1991 Gulf War there were no less than three similar cases. In one, a Challenger I destroyed a British APC and damaged another.
OK, so how many such incidents on US side?

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The MoD covered up every fratricide incident in the Falklands (ten British soldiers were killed) until they were pressured by a British newspaper in 1986. High speed commo will stop many of these lash-ups; it is now possible for a soldier to leak anonymous tips to anyone worldwide, within seconds.
Ten killed it seems not much for such a large operation.

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Yes, and we know that the Allied top ace, Ivan Kozhedub, shot down two Mustangs in quick succession. Those were not added to his official tally of 62 confirmed victories. . .
This incident seems not to be confirmed, at least in the way it was portrayed. Also, it was already mentioned on this board that Kozhedub's score is 63 and not 62.

Christer Bergström 12th March 2005 21:20

I don't know what has been mentioned previously on thiws board, but I have a photo copy from Kozhedub's own logbook where it is easy to see that he achieved a total of 62 victories. I made a list based on that source on my Black Cross/Red Star site:

http://www.bergstrombooks.elknet.pl/bc-rs/koz.html

It's a pity that the prevailing anarchism which allows anyone to say almost anything on this site allows people like Franek and SixNifty to go rampant and waste a lot of space. Isn't it evident that when no one draws a limit, certain people will cross all limits, and we will see the kind of nonsense and mudslinging which Franek and SixNifty so often are engaged in. This might be an Off Topic post, but I see no reason to have moderators when moderation is not used. Franek's and SixNifty's posts contribute nothing, as usual there is no source reference, and these two guys are only occupied with each other. Why don't you guys post private messages to each other instead, and relieve us others from such nonsense? Or is there anyone who has learned anything on WW II aviation from Franek's and SixNifty's exchange of accusations in this thread?

Ruy Horta 12th March 2005 21:38

Thanks Christer for the kind words, as usual.

Let me tell you again that my role is not one of school teacher.

When I start moderating I will do so across the board.

Franek Grabowski 12th March 2005 22:00

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I don't know what has been mentioned previously on thiws board, but I have a photo copy from Kozhedub's own logbook where it is easy to see that he achieved a total of 62 victories.
This is an effect of research of Russian team, namely Mikhail Bykov and Nikita Egorov (I hope i did not miss anybody) who are working in Russian archives on biographies of Soviet aces. They have found primary documents confirming 63 kills that were paid for. ;)

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I made a list based on that source on my Black Cross/Red Star site:
http://www.bergstrombooks.elknet.pl/bc-rs/koz.html
Apparently it is not correct. It is possible kills were added at a later date because Kozhedub was never credited with a kill of Me 262. There was a lenghty discussion on a airforce.ru forum and it is believed that if Kozhedub attacked anything, it was a Hs 293 drone.

Christer Bergström 12th March 2005 22:29

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This is an effect of research of Russian team, namely Mikhail Bykov and Nikita Egorov
That was some source reference! Maybe that is correct. I'll talk to them. Hadn't heard that. Also, the note on Kozhedub's claim on 19 February 1945 actually is illegible due to a tear in the paper. I thought it read "Me 262", but when I checked now I see that it could say almost anything. The note for 19 Feb 1945 says: "Sv. okhota - v [paper torn] - shturmovikov - 1 [illegible; paper damaged]"

Nash 12th March 2005 22:59

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I’m equally surprised by the lack response from fellow members and our host, I can only presume by their deafening silence they all agree with your twisted and distorted views.
I ran in to Six several years ago on the Onwar.com forum, where he was called Brokenclaw. His methods were exactly the same there, to take almost any post and turn it in to an attack on the British, friendly fire being his favourite topic.

Eventually the rest of the members got fed up enough that he left because of the derision he faced.

The same will be true here, I imagine.

In other words, don't worry about it. As time goes by, and his methods and tactics become ever more clear, the community will police itself.

Six Nifty .50s 12th March 2005 23:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Christer Bergström
I don't know what has been mentioned previously on thiws board, but I have a photo copy from Kozhedub's own logbook where it is easy to see that he achieved a total of 62 victories. I made a list based on that source on my Black Cross/Red Star site:

http://www.bergstrombooks.elknet.pl/bc-rs/koz.html?

...Who cares? The original topic was friendly fire.

I am not the least bit interested in Kozhedub or his victory claims, but, I have to ask -- do you have copies of gun camera films or other objective evidence that he shot down 62 planes?


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Originally Posted by Christer Bergström
This might be an Off Topic post, but I see no reason to have moderators when moderation is not used. Franek's and SixNifty's posts contribute nothing, as usual there is no source reference?

Source references to what?

Speaking of nonsense, I picked up a copy of Arthy and Jessen's book on the Fw 190 in North Africa. After reading the mission summaries, it is very clear that your notion suggesting there was no shortage of fuel and did not limit Luftwaffe operations is, a complete fantasy.

But I would agree that fueling a five-plane air force is usually somewhat easier than fueling a 5,000 plane air force.

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Originally Posted by Christer Bergström
is there anyone who has learned anything on WW II aviation from Franek's and SixNifty's exchange of accusations in this thread?

This not your message board. I will ignore your pathetic attempts to control the content. The same goes for Smudger and Coll. I will not be chased out of the forum by a rogue's gallery of hypocrites.

And Christer, I'll leave 'mudslinging' to you and Franek -- both of you are experten in that theatre of operations.

Ruy Horta 12th March 2005 23:33

This thread has run it course, I'll take the opportunity to close it.

:roll:


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