Fw-190 shot down on 19th of September 1943 over Belgium
 

Hello,

I am looking for any information about a Fw-190 shot down on 19th of September 1943 over Belgium, halfway between the city of Veurne and Lille, France.
The plane attacked a formation of returning B-26 Marauder after a bombing mission to Lille, France.
Description of the incident is as following.

“The enemy coast was coming into view as the German pilots continued their tenacious attacks upon the 386th Bombers. A FW-190 pilot lined up on ship number 131685 YA-J being flown by Lieutenant Roy Voorhees. The enemy flier came in from 6 o’clock high and fired continuously from 600 yards out, down to a mere 25 yards—scoring hits in the right wing and aft fuselage of the bomber. Tail gunner Staff Sergeant E.F. Nubert of the attacked plane answered the fire along with Staff Sergeant H.E. Reisinger who was also a tail gunner and flying with the flight leader Captain Boyd White in "HELL’S ANGELS", tail number 131615 YA-W. Two other gunners flying with Captain Robert Sands in "MISTER FIVE BY FIVE",131612 YA-Z, joined in the air battle from their number four position in the low flight. They were Tech Sergeant E.A. Pitts in the waist, and staff Sergeant S.E. Waite firing from his tail gun location. Waite unleashed four hundred rounds of armour piercing, incendiary, and tracer ammunition at the Focke-Wulf fighter and scored hits all over it. The enemy plane with its cockpit shattered, blew up in flames and fell steeply to the ground where it crashed in a fiercely burning heap. Staff Sergeant Waite received full credit for the kill” Chester P. Klier Historian, 386th Bomb Group

Regards
Kristjan

Re: Fw-190 shot down on 19th of September 1943 over Belgium
 

Hello Kristjan,

on this attack were involved 5 FW 190 of 8./JG 26 (= Führungsstaffel Stab/JG 26), 43 Bf 109 of III./JG 26 and 13 FW 190 of I./JG 26.
The only German loss was the Bf 109 G-6 16386 III./JG 26 near Poperinghe. The pilot Lt Ernst Todt was killed.

Sources:
Gen.Qu. loss report from September 22, 1943 and the chronicle of Josef Priller "J.G.26 Geschichte eines Jagdgeschwaders".

Regards
Leo

Re: Fw-190 shot down on 19th of September 1943 over Belgium
 

Thank you for the information Leo.

There are two accounts of possible planes shot down in the mission description from that day.
The other one is the following:

“The waist gunner in number six position ship was Staff Sergeant Billie B. Boyd, Jr. He was flying with Flight Officer Durward Casey in ship 131832 RU-U. Boyd picked up the fighter and was leading it perfectly as his single waist gun rattled off some fifty rounds at 400 yards. There was a violent explosion—what had been a sleek FW-190 fighter plane an instant before was now reduced to a bunch of junk airplane parts raining down on the Belgian Countryside! Staff Sergeant Boyd received full credit for destroying a FW-190” Chester P. Klier Historian, 386th Bomb Group.

The Bf 109 could have been misidentified as Fw 190 and be the one of Lt Ernst Todt.

Regards
Kristjan

Re: Fw-190 shot down on 19th of September 1943 over Belgium
 

It is said Ernst Todt was fatally wounded and crash-landed.
However hard to match with a mid-air explosion.

ClinA-78

Re: Fw-190 shot down on 19th of September 1943 over Belgium
 

Thank you for the information ClinA-78.
Yes, it seems it does not match to the latter event then.

Regards
Kristjan

Re: Fw-190 shot down on 19th of September 1943 over Belgium
 

What seems strange to me is that according to description from that day in the book JG 26 Luftwaffe Fighter Wing War Diary: 1943-45 by Donald Caldwell, the geschwader formations where unable to make contact with the bombers.
The third gruppe seems to have engaged the spitfire escort of No. 41 squadron over Poperinghe, claiming 3 victories and it is speculated that one of those spitfires shot down the Bf 109 of Lt. Ernst Todt.

According to the mission description, which can be read on the following website: http://www.b26.com/historian/chester_klier/025.htm? The fighters seem to have made several attacks on the formation.
Pictures show the damage caused by the attacks.

Re: Fw-190 shot down on 19th of September 1943 over Belgium
 

The JG 26 books says JG 26 did not make contact with the bombers, but JG 2 was also involved in the air battles of this day. It is supposed to be more west, but still a possibility.

According to the database of Luftwaffe summary losses, JG 2 lost this day three aircraft shot down by enemy aircraft (one each of I./JG 2, 11./JG 2 and 12./JG 2) and three destroyed on the ground (two of 10./JG 2 and one of 11./JG 2).

The only known German claims are two Spitfires claimed by Major Egon Mayer of Stab JG 2 E and N of Evreux (by the way 308 Sqn lost two Spitfires in this area to German fighters).

Re: Fw-190 shot down on 19th of September 1943 over Belgium
 

Thank you for the information Laurent. As you say the formation could well have been attacked by JG 2.
If anyone has any information on these three aircraft losses (pilot names) that day by JG 2 it would be highly appreciated.

Regards
Kristjan

Re: Fw-190 shot down on 19th of September 1943 over Belgium
 

Hello Kristjan,

here is the German sight of the events on September 19, 1943.
Major Egon Mayer of Stab/JG 2 claimed two Spitfires on Sept 22, 1943 1717 hrs and 1720 hrs east of Lisieux, not on Sept 19, 1943 (see post #7). On this day the Luftwaffe claimed four Spitfires and had four Bf 109 losses, but no losses of FW 190, in contradiction to the American reports.

At noon the Marauder formation was recalled due to weather. The half of the 386th BG and all 36 of the 387th BG returned, the remaining 18 B-26 of the 386th BG hit Lille-Nord airfield escorted by Spitfire Squadrons (Ramrod No. 232/I). They encountered the FW 190 and Bf 109 of JG 26 (see post #2) but no fighters of the JG 2.

Three Spitfire losses were claimed by
Uffz Gerd Wiegand 8./JG 26 1240 hrs
Hptm Klaus Mietusch Stab III./JG 26 1246 hrs
Hptm Karl Borris Stab I./JG 26 1252 hrs.

One Bf 109 loss: Lt Ernst Todt Stab III./JG 26 Bf 109 G-6 16386 near Poperinghe 1240 hrs.

In the afternoon 72 B-26 of 222nd and 323rd BG were dispatched to the Merville airfield but they were recalled due to weather. But 15 Mitchell of 226 Sqn bombed a petrochemical factory near Béthune, escorted by some Spitfire Squadrons (Ramrod No. 233/ I and II). In the area west of Calais they encountered the I. and II./JG 2 and parts of JG 26 (43 Bf 109 and 30 FW 190). The escort fighters prevented a contact to the bombers.

One Spitfire loss was claimed by Lt Fritz Karch 6./JG 2 1830 hrs.

Three Bf 109 losses, pilots N.N.:
4./JG 2 Bf 109 G-6 20664 emergency landing near Arras, 20%
4./JG 2 Bf 109 G-6 20601 belly landing near Epinoy, 65%
III./JG 2 Bf 109 G-6 15220 belly landing near Monchy-Breton, 20%.


Sources:
Tony Wood lists “OKL Fighter Claims” and “RAF & US Fighter Commands with annotated text. Issue I 1943”
Jagdfliegerverbände Teil 10/III and Teil 10/IV
Loss reports of Gen.Qu. from September 22, 1943 No. 11-13 and 15

Regards
Leo

Re: Fw-190 shot down on 19th of September 1943 over Belgium
 

Thank you very much for your help Leo.

Regards
Kristjan

Re: Fw-190 shot down on 19th of September 1943 over Belgium
 

Sorry for my confusing answer, as told by Leo, everything I said in my post above (#7) happened on 22 September 1943, not on the 19th. I just searched the wrong date... and wondered about the different areas involved (JG 2 claims over Normandy, American reports in Lille area). I now understand better....

Re: Fw-190 shot down on 19th of September 1943 over Belgium
 

Oddly enough the RAF make no claim for Bf109 destroyed on 22 September! Claims are 41 sqn 3-2-1, 308 Sqn 0-0-1, 341 sqn 1-0-2, 416 Sqn 0-0-3, 453 Sqn 1-0-0. All the confirmed kills are Fw190, although 4 damaged claims are made for Bf109.

Intriguingly if the Bf109 claims are upgraded the aces Anthoni Glowacki and Lloyd Chadburn would increase their scores by one and two respectively...if the Fw190 claims are rejected Ray Harries, Maurice Bouguen and Don Smith are reduced by one....

...however as we know this is just being wise after the event.

regards

Keith

Re: Fw-190 shot down on 19th of September 1943 over Belgium
 

Hello Keith,

on September 22, 1943 the RAF claimed 4-2-7 Luftwaffe aircraft.
Again there is no agreement with the German documents.

A Marauder formation of 233rd and 386th BG hit the Evreux-Fauville airfield around 1612 hrs damaging 2 Fw 190 of 10./JG 2 and 1 Bf 109 of 11./JG 2:

Fw 190 A-6 530141 70%
Fw 190 A-6 550539 90%
Bf 109 G-3 16285 80%.

After the attack 32 Fw 190 and 12 Bf 109 of Stab, I. and II./JG 2 encountered the Marauder formation, forced away by the escorting Spitfires.

RAF losses:
Major Egon Mayer of Stab/JG 2 claimed two Spitfires at 1717 hrs and 1720 hrs east of Lisieux.

Luftwaffe losses:
Fw 190 A-6 530318 Fw Heinz Ender 2./JG 2 killed 8 km southeast Conches, 100%
Bf 109 G-6 27056 Fhr Klaus Diekert 12./JG 2 wounded near Acquigny 100%.

Source:
Jagdfliegerverbände Teil 10/IV


Regards
Leo

Re: Fw-190 shot down on 19th of September 1943 over Belgium
 

Sorry Leo, I am a bit confused. I have the JG26 pilot lost on 19 September to 91 Squadron around midday. So three Bf109s lost to enemy fighters in the afternoon of 19 September, two of which were damaged and c/l?

3 fighters lost (on the ground) during the Marauder raid on 22 September 1943? And two fighters shot down by Spitfires during the withdrawal (this would be the encounter with the Digby, Northolt and Westhampnett Wings).

No JG2 fighters damaged in these encounters....? Blimey, the two that were shot down must have been hit by five Westhampnet Wing pilots, two Digby Wing pilots and a Pole from Northolt!

best regards

Keith

Re: Fw-190 shot down on 19th of September 1943 over Belgium
 

Hello Keith,

I have quoted the documented German losses in Western Europe which are contradictory to the Alliied informations.

You are right:

German losses on September 19, 1943 after encounters with Spitfires

1 Bf 109 G-6 of JG 26 at noon
3 Bf 109 G-6 of JG 2 in the afternoon.

German losses on September 22, 1943 (all of JG 2)

1 Bf 109 G-3 and 2 Fw 190 A-6 on the ground during the Marauder raid
1 Bf 109 G-6 and 1 Fw 190 A-6 shot down by Spitfires during the withdrawal.

I am not able to assess the correctness of the British claims according to the Tony Wood list “RAF & US Fighter Commands with annotated text. Issue I
1943”

Kind regards
Leo

Re: Fw-190 shot down on 19th of September 1943 over Belgium
 

Many thanks Leo. As usual with so many Spitfires around there'll be an element of overclaiming but it looks like the RAF claims for three destroyed in the area on 22 September are pretty accurate compared with LW losses. (albeit the addition of "probables" and "damaged" make it less clear).

The victories on the 19th are evidence of underclaiming (very unusual). The RAF only makes claims for two destroyed and three damaged in the afternoon. Although they overclaim in the morning, the Westhampnett Wing are credited with two destroyed and a damaged.

best regards

Keith

Re: Fw-190 shot down on 19th of September 1943 over Belgium
 

Hi, Kristjan,


Unfortunately, what has been neglected in the discussion here is that American bomber gunners' claims are notoriously inflated, sometimes up to 50-fold. They can be very colorful and dramatic, as your quotations were, but are rarely accurate. My database has recorded several instances of specific unit vs unit engagements like these:


November 23, 1942

American Bomber Gunner Claims: 16-2-1 JG2 Losses: 1, Uffz. Theodor Angele (7.), in the ocean


December 20, 1942
American Bomber Gunner Claims: 53-15-8
JG2 Losses (to accidents): 2, Lt. Ambrosius Passer (7.), KIA, crash near Vannes/Meucon, Lt. Fritz Probst (8.), Parachuted, KIA, ran out of gas, ran into a tree, Montebourg, 8 km SE of Valognes


December 30, 1942

Bomber Claims: 29-7-3
JG2 losses: 1,Uffz. Karl Löhse (7.), MIA, in combat, went in around 30 km east of Belle-Ile