Rudolf Windisch Air to Air Victories
 

Gentlemen,

I remember reading somewhere in one of the "Over The Front" magazines,a person commented that Leutnant Rudolf Windisch's 20+ WWI air-to-air victories didn't matched up to known Allied losses over the Western Front. How serious was Windisch's victories being disputed? I read that most of his victories were disputed.

Edward L. Hsiao

Re: Rudolf Windisch Air to Air Victories
 

Edward

I know nothing about Windisch or his supposed 'dishonesty' but since he basically spent his whole career fighting the French, I guess it is up to them to tell us how and where each and every aircraft of theirs were lost. I doubt they are capable of doing so, at least not up until now.

That means we end up pretty much in a stalemate, since we can find out (and know) what their losses were when pilots/crewmembers were killed and probably also wounded, but not when their actual aircraft were lost without casualties, ie the same situation we actually face with the Luftstreitkräfte.

It is impossible, again as far as I know, to verify 100% Allied claims against the Germans unless there was a casualty or serious wound. In the same vein it is impossible to verify all German claims against the French.

I would welcome anyone who could show me complete French losses, including serial numbers, during WW 1.

From a general basis it feels odd that Windisch should be able to claim 22 victories without some kind of verification from elsewhere. Of all the combatants in WW 1 I think, since I am not sure, the Germans were the most careful when awarding victories. Most combats on the British Front took place on the German side of the line, so much "easier" to verify. Don't know how they performed against the French, but I doubt the Germans resorted to some kind of "Trenchard" doctrine in those sectors, so it would be interesting to know why Windisch was able to get away with it and even be awarded the Pour le Merite.

Cheers
Stig

Re: Rudolf Windisch Air to Air Victories
 

Hello Edward & Stig,

can you tell me which aircraft Windisch flew from January 1918 until he received a Fokker D.VII ?

Michael

Re: Rudolf Windisch Air to Air Victories
 

Mr Hsiao, can you give a source for the statement that most of Lt d R Windischs victories were disputed? If indeed they were, he must have had friends/protectors in very high places.

Re: Rudolf Windisch Air to Air Victories
 

Stig,

If you cross-reference the casualties mentioned in, The French Air Service War Chronology 1914-1918 Day-to-Day Claims and Losses by French Fighter, Bomber and two-seat Pilots on the Western Front/Frank W Bailey & Christophe Cony (Grub Street,2001) with Windisch's biography/claims list in, Above The Lines/Franks,Bailey & Guest (Grub Street,1993), some claims do possibly match up, in the opinion of the authors.

Col.

Re: Rudolf Windisch Air to Air Victories
 

hi,
very interesting post,
i know little about his claims but seems than i only find 5...
if you need the info let me check the sources,

regards

Re: Rudolf Windisch Air to Air Victories
 

Gentlemen,

Thank you for your response so far. To GMichalski, yes I do need the info please.

Edward L. Hsiao

Re: Rudolf Windisch Air to Air Victories
 

Good morning,

luckily, Windisch was a Blue Max winner which guarantees him being covered in a future volume of Lance Bronnenkant's marvellous BLUE MAX AIRMEN series.
I'm looking forward to it.
Michael

Re: Rudolf Windisch Air to Air Victories
 

6 19-nov-17 Jasta 32 SPAD Laval #4268, Esc. Spa 65, Capt. O. de Montero-Torres, MIA* red spad http://riseofflight.com/forum/topic/...ed-spad-2-fer/


7 03 Jan 1918 Jasta 32 Balloon Villers 72 Cie. Aerostieres, S/Lt. M. Desache, OK

15 11 Apr 1918 Jasta 66 Bréguet 14 S of Noyon Esc. Br.129, Cpl. Grebil, MIA & Asp. E. Carron, MIA*

18 03-may-18 Jasta 66 Balloon Juvigny 88e Cie. Aerostieres, S/Lt. R. Lériche, OK

20 15-may-18 Jasta 66 SPAD 2 Trosly-Loire Esc. Spa.265, Lt. J. Chotard,KIA & Asp. J. Fropo,KIA

http://www.forumeerstewereldoorlog.n...ic.php?t=19052
http://www.forumeerstewereldoorlog.n...ic.php?t=19086

sorry can´t find more sources to compare but its a beginning,
regards

Re: Rudolf Windisch Air to Air Victories
 

Edward, if WWI claims are your thing, I would suggest you raise the matter over at The Aerodrome Forum. http://www.theaerodrome.com/forum/

Those guys have an amazing knowledge of losses and claims. :)

Re: Rudolf Windisch Air to Air Victories
 

Hello Edward,

Jim is right. The theaerodrome forum is marvellous.

Good luck with your inquiry,

Michael

Re: Rudolf Windisch Air to Air Victories
 

...to answer your initial question:
only seven of Rudolf Windisch's 22 kills correspond to known Allied losses
#6 19Nov
#12 24Mar
#16 21Apr
#17 21Apr
#18 3May
#19 4May
#20 15May
This quota is below the average of the German WW1 top fighter aces.

Dear GMichalski,

why do you think that the 72 Cie balloon was Windisch's victim on 3Jan ?

Have a nice Easter, sincerely,

Michael

Re: Rudolf Windisch Air to Air Victories
 

hello,

sorry for the late response...

i sometimes check the source:
http://www.forumeerstewereldoorlog.n...14c47018b76215

Info here:
http://www.forumeerstewereldoorlog.n...ic.php?t=19052

3Jan18 Ltn.d.R. Windisch 7 Balloon Villers 22
72 Cie. Aerostieres, S/Lt. M. Desache, OK

regards

Re: Rudolf Windisch Air to Air Victories
 

here is what i have, we can comment the claims-losses:

4 01-nov-17 Jasta 32 SPAD W of Bray ¿Probably French Spad of Esc N.112, MdL Vernaudon, MIA.?

6 19-nov-17 Jasta 32 SPAD Laval #4268, Esc. Spa 65, Portuguese pilot Capt O de Monteiro-Torres, MIA* (with red spad) http://riseofflight.com/forum/topic/...ed-spad-2-fer/

7 03 Jan 1918 Jasta 32 Balloon Villers 72 Cie. Aerostieres, S/Lt. M. Desache, OK

8 04 Jan 1918 Jasta 32 SPAD S of Staubecken S/Lt Francois Kermina Sop 131 P MIA GB 4

9 15-mar-18 Jasta 66 SPAD Vitry-Reims Sal 61 Sgt Martin (G) and S/Lt Jean Mace (O) both WIA possibly J 66 Windisch claim

10 17-mar-18 Jasta 66 SPAD Vitry-Reims 7 Armee could be Spa 75 Mdl Joseph Rechede POW French 10 Armee

12 24-mar-18 Jasta 66 SPAD 2 Bretigny
13 24-mar-18 Jasta 66 SPAD Tergnier
14 24-mar-18 Jasta 66 SPAD Tergnier
One of these: Sop 234 Cpl Jouy & S/Lt Francois Touchfeu MIA III Armee possibly Ltn R*Windisch*J 66 one of his claims

15 11 Apr 1918 Jasta 66 Bréguet 14 S of Noyon Esc. Br.129, Cpl. Grebil, MIA & Asp. E. Carron, MIA*

18 03-may-18 Jasta 66 Balloon Juvigny 88e Cie. Aerostieres, S/Lt. R. Lériche, OK

19 04-may-18 Jasta 66 SPAD Carlepont S/Lt Lucien Gauthier Spa 62 (P) POW Spad VII (Chemin Des Dames area could be Windisch J 66 or Cpl Marcel Dupont Spa 26 (P) WIA Montdider area possibly wither odebrett j 42 or Windisch J 66 OTF 17-1

20 15-may-18 Jasta 66 SPAD 2 Trosly-Loire Esc. Spa.265, Lt. J. Chotard,KIA & Asp. J. Fropo,KIA

22 27-may-18 Jasta 66 SPAD 2 Couvrelles-Lesges (Immediately after he shot down this last Spad, he was jumped by several other enemy scouts. A bullet through the gas tank forced him to land behind French lines, about 50 meters from his final victim)

clearly is not one of the top on accuracy,

regards

Re: Rudolf Windisch Air to Air Victories
 

There seems to be a bit of controversy regarding Windisch claim No 6

It has variously been reported both on the 18th and 19th Nov 1917

The JASTA war chronology very conveniently lists him with claim No 6 on both days....:rolleyes:

I notice everyone here is certain it was on the 19th. May I ask why?

Cheers
Stig

PS: I still maintain that until further and much better aircraft losses are published by the French, the German claims against them should be treated with caution.

Re: Rudolf Windisch Air to Air Victories
 

Good evening Gentlemen,


Stig: Lance Bronnenkant clearly says 19 Nov on two different pages of his book. Furthermore, http://albindenis.free.fr/ and http://www.forumeerstewereldoorlog.nl/ agree on that.

I added the claim-loss-correlations of the verified claims that are not indicated in BLUE MAX AIRMEN Vol18 in bold:
4 01-nov-17 SPAD W of Bray Probably French SPAD of N.112, MdL Vernaudon, MIA
6 19-nov-17
7 03 Jan 1918 Balloon Villers 72 Cie. Aerostieres, S/Lt. M. Desache, OK
8 04 Jan 1918 SPAD S of Staubecken S/Lt Francois Kermina Sop.131 MIA
10 17-mar-18 SPAD Vitry-Reims could be Spa.75 Mdl Joseph Rechede POW
12 24-mar-18
15 11-apr-18 Bréguet 14 S of Noyon Br.129, Cpl. Grebil, MIA & Asp. E. Carron, MIA
16 21-apr-18
17 21-apr-18
18 03-may-18
19 04-may-18
20 15-may-18
Therefore, 12 out of 22 (55%) can be verified. Still below average.

By the way, I believe that Windisch claimed one kill in the Roland D.II, 20 in the Albatros D.V, none in the Albatros D.Va and one in the Fokker D.VII. Could you agree ?

Cheers,

Michael

Re: Rudolf Windisch Air to Air Victories
 

Yes Michael
There are many secondhand sources around.
With a conflict I would rather like to know what they are based upon..... :)
Cheers
Stig

Re: Rudolf Windisch Air to Air Victories
 

Good morning Stig,

I like the books of Norman Franks very much but they contain many typos. Some of them are copied by other authors.

Best greetings from sunny Switzerland,

Michael