Re: Seeking ID of large industrial complex being overflown by Bf110C of St V.(Z)/LG1 Gr Kdr circa spring 1940
 

Horst,

That would make a lot of sense, as V.(Z)/LG1 was based at Mannheim-Sandhofen AF from 11.39 to 13.05.40. The markings on the aircraft are consistent with what I would expect for the beginning of the WC.

There must be photos of such a famous wartime plant available that would allow us to confirm the location.

Who can confirm this location?

Re: Seeking confirmation that photo was taken at Alencon AF, France, summer, 1940
 

Hello,

It might help to know where V.(Z)/LG1 was based during the spring-early summer of 1940, although this was not necessarily taken at one of the unit's main bases.

1) Mannehiem-Sandhofen AF, Germany (from 11.39 - 13.05.40
2) Wiesbaden AF, Germany (from 13.05.40 - 18.05.40
3) Neufchateau AF, Belgium? (from 18.05.40 - 19.05.40
4) Trier AF, Germany (from 19.05.40 - 20.05.40)
5) St Marie-Chevigny AF, Belgium (from 20.05.40 - 28.06.40)
6) Alencon AF, France (from 28.06.40 to 12.06.40 -- staging through Cherbourg)
7) Theville AF, France (from 14.07.40 - 21.07.40 -- staging through Rocuancourt)
Thereafter staging through Cherbourg, Rocuancort, and Lessay, France, until started flying from Ligescourt for the middle part of the Battle of Britain

This may help figure out where this is.

Re: Seeking ID of large industrial complex being overflown by Bf110C of St V.(Z)/LG1 Gr Kdr circa spring 1940
 

Aerial view at the bottom of the article,
http://www.basf.com/group/corporate/...925-1944/index

Re: Seeking ID of large industrial complex being overflown by Bf110C of St V.(Z)/LG1 Gr Kdr circa spring 1940
 

Hello,

I've had several people email me photos of BASF at Ludwigshafen in 1939, and they don't seem to match the photos posted above, especially the row of four smokestacks in a row. Can't find them in those photos. So it doesn't seem to be the BASF plant.

So, it must be another place, perhaps a German steel mill. Any more suggestions?

Regards,

Larry

Re: Seeking ID of large industrial complex being overflown by Bf110C of St V.(Z)/LG1 Gr Kdr circa spring 1940
 

Hi,

Maybe it is something like leuna Werk Oil from coal



http://www.naumburg-geschichte.de/bilder/leuna/silo.jpg

Re: Seeking ID of large industrial complex being overflown by Bf110C of St V.(Z)/LG1 Gr Kdr circa spring 1940
 

I think the angle would fit very well with a north-westerly take-off from Sandhofen, with the BASF works to the left after crossing the Rhine.

All the best

Andreas

Re: Seeking ID of large industrial complex being overflown by Bf110C of St V.(Z)/LG1 Gr Kdr circa spring 1940
 

lilsis,

Unfortunately I don't see the big cooling towers in the photos with the plane.

Andreas,

The angle might work on BASF, but we still need to locate those five smokestacks all in a row, which I don't see in 1939 photos of the facility.

Re: Seeking to ID this Photo/Caption from Phoney War/Sitzkrieg "Messerschmitt"
 

Hello,

Two different people have sent me pdfs of this article in Avions, so my thanx for your help. Now we'll need to get it translated into English.

Now that I've seen the article, there are no new photos that we didn't already have in the EoE Photo DB regarding the LW side of the story, and there are others we do have that weren't there. Unfortunately, no photos of the Bf109 crash sites, such as the one that I posted--only the one of Red 7 FL, that we already have.

Thanx for your continuing help and support. I ask all of you to please keep your eyes out for other photos relating to this incident. I'm sure that photos exist of the other three crash sites, but they may not be easily identifiable for what they are. Smoking wreckage often doesn't lead to easy identification.

Re: Seeking to ID this Photo/Caption from Phoney War/Sitzkrieg "Messerschmitt"
 

Looking at the air battles at that time, seems french hv an edge, better moral ?? better trained ?? Better tactics ??
Wonder if frenches are not more disciplinate than the germans :D
Things, even if french AF fiercely fought , changed in may ...

Rémi

Re: Seeking to ID this Photo/Caption from Phoney War/Sitzkrieg "Messerschmitt"
 

RT, in this particular battle, the Bf 109 were old models (D from memory), in May 1940 the Bf 109 E was a more formidable opponent.

And this battle is the only success of this scale between September 1939 and June 1940.

Re: Seeking ID of large industrial complex being overflown by Bf110C of St V.(Z)/LG1 Gr Kdr circa spring 1940
 

Are photos of the plants located at the Ruhr available? I will try to locate something, but I'm throwing this out as a possibility for other researchers. Also, the Zollverein Coal Mine Industrial Complex, Essen, Germany.




Ed

Re: Seeking to ID this Photo/Caption from Phoney War/Sitzkrieg "Messerschmitt"
 

The D model was not really lower in quality compare to the P36, further the number make all not quality, in most of cases, the E models were far superior to the curtiss, but in May 40 Curtiss were not less succesful than the 109E ..

Wonder if someone hv figures for these fights in the early time of war

Rémi

Re: Seeking ID of large industrial complex being overflown by Bf110C of St V.(Z)/LG1 Gr Kdr circa spring 1940
 

A possibility?


http://lostimagesofww2.com/photos/places/saar.php





Ed

Re: Seeking photo of Bf110C-1 of Oblt Gordon Gallob, the Sta Kap of 3./ZG76 during the Polish Campaign period, or any time during 1939
 

Only photos I have are of CL & UL with an indistinct DL in the distance & Jaeger's FL nose (but no markings)

Re: Seeking confirmation that photo was taken at Alencon AF, France, summer, 1940
 

I think no Nrs 3 & 5

ClinA-78

Re: Seeking to ID this Photo/Caption from Phoney War/Sitzkrieg "Messerschmitt"
 

Remi,

We will have all of that when we're done with the EoE Project, but I don't know this now.

Luc Vervoort (Belgium) has agreed to translate the 6 Nov 1939 magazine article, so now we're covered there. He has done a huge amount of French translations for the project, and I am greatly in his debt for his wonderful assistance with French-language books and other publications. Thanx Luc.

Re: Seeking ID of large industrial complex being overflown by Bf110C of St V.(Z)/LG1 Gr Kdr circa spring 1940
 

Ed,

I looked at what you posted. The real key to the ID of this is the five smokestacks with the specific buildings and the water tower behind them. "Lilsis" also sent me a PM with something like this row of stacks, but the buildings don't seem to match. The location also is in NE German, which is not where I think that this is likely to be. Both France and Belgium also has major industrial areas like this, although I don't think this could have been over one of them until after the surrenders. This doesn't look like a combat mission over the plant facility.

We'll find this, as the smokestacks are very distinctive, and are probably the key to identifying this place, and thus being able to ID the approximate date.

Re: Seeking photo of Bf110C-1 of Oblt Gordon Gallob, the Sta Kap of 3./ZG76 during the Polish Campaign period, or any time during 1939
 

Chris,

Thanx for checking. If we just knew for sure that Gollob flew the "A" aircraft with the Staffel, that would be enough to create a highly accurate profile, as we have plenty of examples of Bf110C-1s from I./ZG76 around the beginning of the war to work from.

Re: Seeking ID of large industrial complex being overflown by Bf110C of St V.(Z)/LG1 Gr Kdr circa spring 1940
 

My guess is that this will in Germany, because it does not seem to be a combat mission, as such a place will certainly be protected by AA guns.

And the factory is producing smoke, ie is working. I doubt such an installation would have worked in occupied France or Belgium in June or July 1940, given that most people fled before the German advance, and took weeks if not months to come back.

Re: Seeking confirmation that photo was taken at Alencon AF, France, summer, 1940
 

ClinA-78,

Looking at the landscape at the distance I don't think that this is the Neufchateau (#3) or Libramont (#5) airfield.

Besides, I don't think there was that much infrastructure available at either of these airfields.

Regards,
Rudi.

Re: Seeking confirmation that photo was taken at Alencon AF, France, summer, 1940
 

Hello Rudy,

Sorry if I have made a misunderstanding, this is obviously NOT Neufchateau NOR Libramont.
By pure coincidence, I have been in Libramont a/f (+/- 1km W of Sainte-Marie-Chevigny; 5 km E of Libramont) recently and made some interesting findings there... If interested, I may open a new thread... There was also another a/f in Libramont area, near Bras, +/- 7 km N of Libramont).

Best regards

ClinA-78

Re: Seeking ID of large industrial complex being overflown by Bf110C of St V.(Z)/LG1 Gr Kdr circa spring 1940
 

A water-tower of this style still exists in Oberhausen. Ans Oberhausen is not far from Düsseldorf airfield, another occupant of LG 1 those days.

But my favourite guess would be the final phase of a southeast landing approach to Mannheim-Sandhofen, looking left to the Rheingönheim factory or the Oppau BASF-chemical plant.

Good luck !

Horst Weber

Re: Seeking ID of large industrial complex being overflown by Bf110C of St V.(Z)/LG1 Gr Kdr circa spring 1940
 

Another possible candidate:

http://www.leuna-harze.de/unternehmen/meilensteine/


The relationship between I.G. Farben and BASF is unclear to me. So who owned the Leuna Werke? Another factor that should not be lost is the possibility of expansion as the war drew closer.



Ed

Re: Seeking confirmation that photo was taken at Alencon AF, France, summer, 1940
 

Hello all!

This is most certainly the northern hangar sector of Villacoublay, west of Paris...Besides at that time Alençon had only one solitary and rather small hangar.

S!

JVM

Re: Seeking confirmation that photo was taken at Alencon AF, France, summer, 1940
 

Hello,

Does anyone have any photos that would match this to Villacoublay?

Larry Hickey
EoE Project Coordinator

Trying to verify Villacoublay as French Airfield where this photo was taken
 

Hello,

An earlier post indicated that this photo of the Gr Kdr's a/c with Stab V.(Z)/LG1 might have been taken at Alencon AF, France. However, it has now been claimed that this was at Villacoublay, near Paris. Does anyone have photos from circa June-August, 1940, that would verify this location as Villacoublay?

http://ihra.smugmug.com/photos/i-bxk...-bxkFZQv-L.jpg

Any help resolving this would be appreciated.

Re: Trying to verify Villacoublay as French Airfield where this photo was taken
 

I believe I have a number of photos but the hangars are much bigger. Fuselage cross might indicate the photo was taken earlier than early Summer 1940?

Re: Trying to verify Villacoublay as French Airfield where this photo was taken
 

I think it is, go to

http://www.criticalpast.com/video/65...amaged-hangars

Regards

Martin

Re: Trying to verify Villacoublay as French Airfield where this photo was taken
 

Chris,

Most likely time for this to have been taken is right after end of the FC, circa 06.40.

Martin: this referenced film clip looks like a serious possibility, even though it was taken around five years after my photo was taken. I hope we can find a photo of this taken nearer to the time of my photo to confirm the match up. Definitely looks promising though. However, I would have expected lots of wrecked or abandoned French aircraft at Villacoublay if this was taken in June or July, 1940. Also, the absence of any bomb damage to the AF buildings also bothers me. My photo cannot have been taken later than September, 1940, because the assigned pilot, Horst Liensberger, was shot down and KIA on 27.09.40, although apparently not in this aircraft.

Regards,

Re: Trying to verify Villacoublay as French Airfield where this photo was taken
 

The photos I have show quite a bit of bomb damage hence my caution

Re: Trying to verify Villacoublay as French Airfield where this photo was taken
 

I paused the film at 01:28, and it looks like the pic, just taken nearer the buildings.

Re: Trying to verify Villacoublay as French Airfield where this photo was taken
 

Comparing with the film at 01:28 I'd say it is a match with the photo in Post#1! Several building details can be recognized on both photo and film.

Re: Trying to verify Villacoublay as French Airfield where this photo was taken
 

Hello,

Thanx for all of your comments and help. So it appears pretty firmly established that the photo of L1+XB was taken at Villacoublay. Now my problem, for profile sequencing, is when. This couldn't be earlier than the latter part of June, 1940, after the airfield was captured, or later than the beginning of September, 1940 (pilot shot down and KIA 27.09.40 and white noses by early Sept on unit aircraft). Does anyone have any photos of this area of Villacoublay right after it was captured? My presumption is that at least for a while there would be evidence of the defeated French Air Force on the field, but I don't see any sign of that. There is at least a two-month time window here when damaged or destroyed French aircraft could have been cleared from the airfield, and at least preliminary repairs could have been made to bomb damage to make the field suitable for bomber operations during the BoB (I think part of KG55 was based there). The question comes down to is this late or end WC/FC (06.40) or early BoB (07-08.40)?

Any further evidence or thoughts?

Regards,

Seeking crew info or photos for He59 loss/damages at Norderney on 07 & 08.12.39
 

Hello,

We have just revised our EoE Loss entry for this incident:

"7 December 1939 Home Front Amend: 3./KüFlGr.906 Heinkel He59 (0840). Crashed on third attempt to take-off from Norderney on night mine-laying sortie when port float hit a wave 7.30 p.m. BO Oberlt zur See Klaus Toball (Staffel Ia), [...] Coenen, BF Uffz Kurt Mommertz, and [..] Sobotta all unhurt. Aircraft 8L+UL 60% damaged but repairable."

Can anyone supply the first names and crew positions of Coenen and Sobotta. I presume that one of these was the pilot? Our information source is the unit KTB, which we've just translated.

We have the same problem with the first name of the BM Fw [...] Burzlaff of 8L+OL, WNr.2603, whose He59 from the same unit overturned at Norderney on 8 December.

Also, does anyone know of any photos of these incidents, or photos of these a/c at times other than the loss/damage events? This includes a 50% damaged 8L+SL, W.Nr. 2595, of the same unit that was also damaged by hitting a sandbank on 08.12.39 at Norderney. No crew info for this a/c is known.

Thanx for any assistance.

Re: Seeking crew info or photos for He59 loss/damages at Norderney on 07 & 08.12.39
 

Olt Werner Coenen, Flugzeugführer
Fw Franz Sobotta, Bordmechaniker

Matti

Re: Seeking crew info or photos for He59 loss/damages at Norderney on 07 & 08.12.39
 

Matti,

Thanx. Will revise our entry.

Nothing on first name of Fw Burzlaff?

Re: Seeking crew info or photos for He59 loss/damages at Norderney on 07 & 08.12.39
 

The W.Nr. of 8L+UL was 1840. It was an Arado-built He 59D that was received by Walther Bachmann Flugzeugwerke in Ribnitz on 13.01.1940 for conversion to full He 59N ASR configuration. This work took about seven months.

Re: Seeking crew info or photos for He59 loss/damages at Norderney on 07 & 08.12.39
 

Seaplanes,

Thanx. I'll make sure that Peter C. picks this up.

Do you know of photos of any of these planes?

Re: Trying to verify Villacoublay as French Airfield where this photo was taken
 

This is a photo taken by a recce crewman and on the back of the original says Villacoublay. Take your pick!

Re: Trying to verify Villacoublay as French Airfield where this photo was taken
 

Larry,

It looks like that Villacoublay did not receive large destructions during the FC. From 16.06. to 23.06.40 two groups of JG 26 were based there to be followed by the whole KG 55 on 23.06.40 and the staff of V.Fliegerkorps. Furthermore a repair shop for Ju 88 aircraft was established by Junkers at the same time within the large hangars, this company delivered the first repaired aircraft during early September.

Wasn’t V./LG 1 subordinated to V.Fliegerkorps and Liensberger was there for a meeting at Korps level?