218 Squadron - HA-R - FRANCE - 1940
 

Like Martin Gleeson suggested on another thread I have also had concern over the ‘HA-R’ photo in T&N p272. Ex Shack suggested QUOTE “a possibility arising out of the relatively poor photos? K9273 is a clear profile view and unambiguous. The other photo is not so clear and shows the a/c tangled in trees. The lower part of the HA is lost by the curve of the fuselage and shadow. Could the other be a B, with the lower part similarly lost. The style of the lettering ,which seems to "square off" the curved parts of both letters could make the upper section of R and B appear very alike and with the truncation make part of the lower B look similar to the R . The lower R is far less angled on the a/c than we are typing it here and would write it by hand and have tried to figure it out before. “

Perhaps Peter could take a second close look at the original to see if he agrees there is a possibility of it not being HA-R?

Approaching the problem logically (with the clear reservation that the primary sources can not be fully trusted).

Firstly to look at all the possibilities if it is HA-R. The ‘other’ HA-R (K9273) arrived at 218 Squ on 11 Oct 1938 and was abandoned at Auberive. So this doesn’t look like phoney war HA-R loss. So the simple alternative would be a loss in 218 operations from Rheges of one of the planes that were transferred in and was could have been given new HA-R codes, but no bale-outs or casualties for 218 Squadron are recorded or known for that period. Another possibility I considered is that it was one of the planes taken over by another squadron but operated under unchanged 218 Squ codes and then lost. By my reckoning L5514 to 103 Squ is the only possibility from the records but that was reported as ‘seen to go down in a field in the target area’ with the pilot a POW, on 26 May.

Now assume it is not HA-R but say HA-B…but there is only one known 218 Squ loss ‘not accounted for’ …it is very, very, speculative but that is P2360 the Buttery plane, 14 May, lost without trace, no known crash site, no known graves…!!!

Either way a mystery.

Anybody got other photos, info or thoughts on this?

Re: 218 Squadron - HA-R - FRANCE - 1940
 

HA-R

Re: 218 Squadron - HA-R - FRANCE - 1940
 

??-R in the trees dated May 11, 1940

Re: 218 Squadron - HA-R - FRANCE - 1940
 

Revi's photos are excellent but I note that in the 2nd set it is not possible to see the Sqn letters and although there are trees the scene is more open than the photo in Peter's book. Where the full Sqn/A/c letters are visible in the 1st set it does show a more pronounced slope to the lower part of the R than I gave credit for and this would reinforce the idea that it might be B on the photo in Peter's book. If Revi has not seen the pictures in the book(p272), the a/c that everyone is wondering about is in fact the rear section of a Battle fuselage in a thick group of trees and in a very nearly vertical position, and the letters are upside down as far as the camera position is concerned. The effect is to lose the lower part of the letters as they curve away from the camera and are in some shadow.
Regards
Dick

Re: 218 Squadron - HA-R - FRANCE - 1940
 

The 2nd series of pictures of Revi16 are the K9183 MQ-R off 226 Sqn that came down on May 10 at Bettendorf (Luxembourg).

Pieter

Re: 218 Squadron - HA-R - FRANCE - 1940
 

I have a note of a photo at IWM in the C Series, No 1115, confirming MQ-R as serial no K9183

Re: 218 Squadron - HA-R - FRANCE - 1940
 

Hallo all,

I hope this is HA-B, and logic suggests it could be. Maybe more photos will come to light to prove it.
However no matter what way I look at it I cannot see anything other than 'R'. The trailing leg of the 'R' is where it should begin and at the correct angle.

One question I would like to ask is does anyone else think that the HA-R in the trees is on fire ?
Also could Peter tell us the original source of that photo. Was it from a German, French or Belgian source ?

On the very small possibility that it might be P2360 lost on May 14th. I don't think so because P2360 joined the squadron on May 13th. Whatever about an individual letter I doubt if the squadron personnel had enough time to paint on properly the full code.

Regards,

Martin.

Re: 218 Squadron - HA-R - FRANCE - 1940
 

Looked through some old scans. See attached for a Battle in a wood, could be the same plane, no identification visible, but has a location written on the back. Leave interpretation of the writing to the readers!!

Re: 218 Squadron - HA-R - FRANCE - 1940
 

I hoped that the photos on p272 of BoFrT&N would provoke this sort of response from readers for I was puzzled by the anomaly of two machines apparently bearing the same HA*R codes when, as Iain has clearly explained, there seems to be no logical explanation accepting, as he obviously does, that the primary sources available to us are, at best, somewhat unreliable.

Examining the photo of the aircraft smouldering away in the thicket from every angle, I remain convinced that the individual code letter carried is an R. But, of course, I must accept (though at a stretch) the possibility that it could be a B for the very plausible reasons proposed by Ex-Shack - amongst others.

Unfortunately, the history of HA*R K9273 is not fully recorded beyond its being ‘Lost in France’ while allocated to No.218 Squadron. We know when it arrived on unit (11.10.38) but other than that its subsequent movements are subject to speculation. So is it possible that it suffered damage sufficient to render it un-airworthy sometime immediately prior to the German offensive, and its replacement ended up in that thicket ? The original source of the photo was German eBay and , apparently, the reverse of the photo carried the hand-written caption ‘Sedan’. Iain’s other photo could well be the same machine after it had finished ‘brewing-up’ but offers us no further evidence. The caption seems to read ‘French aircraft near Niergnies (?)’ but I defer to those better-versed in Sutterlin.

I won’t fuel speculation over this seeming mystery, it is my experience that an answer (usually relatively simple) will eventually turn up. Meantime, I will keep an open mind – though not so wide open that my brains fall out. Thanks to you all for your most useful input.

Re: 218 Squadron - HA-R - FRANCE - 1940
 

Gents,

Two photo's of HA-R that maybe of interest. Taken via the association archives.

Regards

Steve