Using Y-Intercepts to research the Luftwaffe
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Hello One and All,
stimulated by Nick Beale's authorative thread on ULTRA, this is an attempt to kick-start discussion on the availability and use of other archived British Y-intercept material. Firstly, because my own interest concerns the Nachtjagd in the late-war period, I have not actively investigated the availability of such information on other arms of the Luftwaffe or the availability and quality of such material in the 1939-43 period. I will start by stating that A.I. (British Air Intelligence) produced a large number of reports based upon the collated intelligence from wireless intercepts and captured documents and aircrew. The attached PDF entitled 'Air Ministry AI Document Distribution List' surveys the type and scope of these reports. The document is a reproduction of a document found on an A series (A5400 from memory) microfilm held by The Air Force Historical Research Agency. It lists the A.I. reports being distributed to American commands by originating directorate. I have added known British National Archives file reference numbers for surviving copies of these reports. The various surviving reports held by the British National Archives are by no means neatly organised, easy to locate via an archive catalogue search, or complete. A tremendous amount of Y-intercept material survives in the series AIR 51 - Mediterranean Allied Air Forces: Microfilmed Files. There appears to be material of wider interest in these microfilms, beyond just operations in the Mediterranean. The attached PDF entitled 'AIR 51 Int Sigint Index' provides a list of the Signals Intelligence files held within this microfilmed series. Others, such as Nick Beale, would be more qualified to comment on the general content of these files. The microfilm AIR 51/292 holds an incomplete selection of A.I. reports in the BAT, OWL-ROBOT, Pearl/Zip/FT/AI, Pearl/Zip/GAA, Pearl/Zip/GAM, Pearl/Zip/LS, and Pearl/Zip/TAC/N series, and I have indexed these in the AIR 51 PDF. I would expect that other microfilms contain a wider selection of reports. Of wider interest are the daily Air Activity Summaries as prepared by A.I.4 throughout the war. A complete set of these documents is held at the British National Archives (there are also weekly summaries, but I haven't looked at these): AIR 22/476-503 Air Ministry W/T Intelligence Service Daily Summaries Nos. 1-2076 (28 Volumes) September 1939-May 1945 At least in the late-war period, these reports cover a 24-hour period ending at 0600 hrs B.S.T. or 0700 hrs B.D.S.T., depending on the time zone in use. The documents contain: An executive summary on the first page of (a) Enemy Bomber Activity, and (b) Enemy Nightfighter Activity. Sometimes other information of interest, such as Y evidence of lost aircraft is also appended. Part I - Enemy Bomber and Reconnaisance Activity. This section has information under the following column headings Unit; A/C (i.e. the number of aircraft heard); Times; Control (i.e. the ground control with which the aircraft were operating); Freq (i.e. wireless frequency); Remarks. Part II - Enemy Bomber, Fighter Bomber and Miscellaneous Activity (V.H.F.) - when present, I presume that the format of the information is similar to Part III. below. Part III - Enemy Fighter Activity (Day). this section contains the following sub-sections: 1. GAF reaction to Strategic Operations, GAF reaction to Tactical Operations, and 2. information on aircraft (usually nightfighters) heard operating during the day. Part one is usually in a narrative style with a summary of Allied operations, but can include specifics such as times, type and number of aircraft heard to be operating, location, along with instructions passed. Part IV - Enemy Fighter Activity (Night). This section contains the following sub-sections: 1. Narrative of reactions to specific raids, and 2. Summary of messages intercepted and information on aircraft heard operating during the night. Anyway, this will do for a start. If anyone has further information on the Y material available, especially in non-British archives, I would be very interested to heard from you. As with ULTRA, this material in isolation does not provide some magical all-encompassing view of Luftwaffe operations and organisation, but can combine well with information from all documentary sources. Then S/L G.R. Scott-Farnie, head of Y Section in Air Intelligence early in the war once summed it up beautifully: "Intelligence is rarely dramatic - the best results are obtained from the continous study of details, which although singularly of little value are collectively of great importance." cheers Rod I've added samples of some late war reports concerning Luftwaffe activity on 7 April 1945. The files are: Pearl-Zip-BMP-D-844.jpg - the main narrative page from the Pearl/Zip/BMP/D report concerning daylight LW reaction to Allied raids. The D Reports at this stage of the war appear to be quite sparse, and certainly not as detailed as the N Reports. The report is contained in HW 13/86 at The National Archives, Kew. Activity Summary No 2045 Pg 2.jpg & Activity Summary No 2045 Pg 2.jpg - two pages from the report described above. The report is contained in AIR 22/503 at The National Archives, Kew. |
Re: Using Y-Intercepts to research the Luftwaffe
For the MTO in 1944–45:
The Operations Record Books of No. 276 Wing in AIR26/380–AIR26/383. HW41/47: Daily Signals Intelligence reports from June 1944 through to February/March 1945 (with quite a lot of them missing). You will also find isolated one-off copies of these in AIR51 and in the 276 Wing ORB — and very frustrating that is. What happened to the rest of the ones for the first half of 1944? AIR23/3479: MAAF Sigint Daily Reports, October 1944–May 1945 (these are the same reports you'll find in HW41/47 for the period concerned but I've never cross-checked to see if it fills any of the gaps in that file). |
Re: Using Y-Intercepts to research the Luftwaffe
The 2nd TAF Y Intercepts for the last three months of the year are in AIR40/2371 -2373 and has its uses, primarily to back up other material rather than as a primary source.
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Re: Using Y-Intercepts to research the Luftwaffe
Rod. Great thanks for samples. Yes them (AAS 2045) are really useful for "full research" in certain areas, but as they never contain the actual codes (callsigns) much is lost in their "value". There are lots of these existing - I had seen sample from 10.1942 (but not had chance to look at more).
I had no prior confirmation Westa 3 flew that far West - but am not surprised. - Part I, Para 1 (Page 2) is what date? I can look in my files and check if it was detected from ground! |
Re: Using Y-Intercepts to research the Luftwaffe
Some of these files are reproduced int he HW 13 series (around part 96 for bomber and recon). These have similar details and are set out in a similar fashion with the columns: unit, take-off, attack, landing, no., type, area references and other remarks.
Some of the information is quite detailed and contains specific times, number of aircraft and actual callsigns, for others it is rather meagre. The following units are mentioned to varying degrees (at least in HW13 96): Recon: 1./120 3., 4./121 1., 3./122 1., 3./123 Recce Kette Africa Maritime: 2., 3./125 2., 3./126 1., 5./196 1./406 1., 2., 3./506 1./706 1., 2./906 Bomber: II., IV./KG 2 I./KG 4 I., II./KG 26 I., II./KG 27 KG 28 (?) Stab., II., III./KG 30 I., III./KG 40 I., III./KG 51 I./KG 53 II./KG 54 II./KG 55 Stab., II., III./KG 76 SKG 210 KGr 606 I., II., III./LG 1 I./StG 1 II./StG 2 Stab./StG 3 Fighter: 7., III./ZG 76 II./ZG 76 NJG 2 1./NJG 3 The sort of information that can be gained can be as much as the following entry for 5.10.41 for 3./123: "4U+PL TO before 1100 for WR of East Coast between Yarmouth and Sunderland. This aircraft may have been the one unsuccessfully engaged by two Hurricanes 30m NE of Happisburgh between 1125 and 1230. A/C landed by 1500." Likewise it could be as little as "unknown unit. 3+?. no line." Be warned, a) large files that will take a long time to sort through, and b) just because a unit is listed in the above, doesn't mean there may be any more than a single reference of inconsequential value in the files. |
Re: Using Y-Intercepts to research the Luftwaffe
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Thanks Nick, Steve, Ed and Adam for the information.
Ed, the sample Air Activity Report is for the 24-hour period ending 0700 B.D.S.T. on 8 April 1945, so the daylight sorties were on the 7th. Times are also in B.D.S.T. which during this period was the same as M.E.S.Z. then in use by Germany. Adam, thanks for the additional info. It is a real shame that more of the raw intercepts have not survived (outside of the microfilmed AIR 51 files), as with knowledge of the callsigns and codes in use at the time, many very useful fragments of information could be gained. The various periodical internal reports used by the Y-organisation to update the monitoring stations on changes of LW signals procedure and the introduction of new codes and callsigns often contain snippets of raw intercepts, but they mainly serve to illustrate the richness of the information that has been lost. Many of the reports, however, do provide useful insight into the operational workings of the Luftwaffe. Cheers Rod I've attached a page from a log found in AIR 51/292, concerning intercepts of Luftwaffe activity on 24 January 1945 in relation to the Allied landings at Anzio. It also has callsigns written in. I guess it serves to illustrate the sort of operational info that has been 'lost' with the destruction of the majority of the intercept logs... |
Re: Using Y-Intercepts to research the Luftwaffe
This page was given to me some years back. Some "callsigns" (Stkz.) have checked "true" but I have been told others do not match. I just simply whould love to have all pages. Is this in HW or Y-Service 1944 files?
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Re: Using Y-Intercepts to research the Luftwaffe
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Cheers Rod |
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Re: Using Y-Intercepts to research the Luftwaffe
Some of you may find these pages useful.
https://www.humyo.com/10203701/FILES...ts%20extracts/ They are extracts from subjects covered in the Western Front Committee Reports in HW14/2055, various dates in late 1942. Bruce |
Re: Using Y-Intercepts to research the Luftwaffe
Download link for the Royal Navy report on the BV222 ...
https://www.humyo.com/10203701/ADM%20234%204%20Bv222/ Bruce |
Re: Using Y-Intercepts to research the Luftwaffe
Allied assessment of German Air Force dispositions October 1942 (includes German ASR) ...
https://www.humyo.com/10203701/GAF%2...%20Oct%201942/ Bruce EDIT: LINK UPDATED, PLEASE ADVISE IF STILL UNABLE TO OPEN |
Re: Using Y-Intercepts to research the Luftwaffe
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Hi Dennis, thanks for posting these...I always wondered what a SALU report contained. Perhaps revealing is the stamp on the title page of the SALU report (DSCF3047), stating "SPECIAL NOTE. This document is based on the evidence available at War Station (Station X). It does not necessarily represent the views of the Ministries, or any one of them." W/C John Stubbington, in his his excellent book, 'Bletchley Park Air Section. Signals Intelligence Support to RAF Bomber Command' (Minerva Associates, 2007), details the problems that existed between Air Intelligence in London and the Air Section at Bletchley over the analysis of raw data. The crux of the issue was that A.I. did not think it was the job of the Air Section to analyse data and produce reports, believing instead that this was solely their own preserve. The disclaimer quoted above highlights this difference of opinion... Cheers Rod |
Re: Using Y-Intercepts to research the Luftwaffe
Hello Bruce --
I have had no luck accessing your "humyo" files. Help, please. Don |
Re: Using Y-Intercepts to research the Luftwaffe
Hello Don,
Sorry you have problems: perhaps others have as well so let's use the board to tackle it. What happens when you use the link? Bruce |
Re: Using Y-Intercepts to research the Luftwaffe
Hi Bruce --
I was told I wasn't authorized to view your file, and didn't I want to join humyo (for free)? I don't, but since the file you've posted there is in my current area of interest, I joined, re-logged in, and was told again that I'm not authorized to view your file. Enough time wasted.... Don |
Re: Using Y-Intercepts to research the Luftwaffe
Hello Don,
I must ask if anybody else has had the same problem, because I cannot recreate it (I am the account holder so it gives me a different page when I access it). Also, does it happen with all of the links posted? Each link only gives access to the specified file/folder, so sorry you wasted your time joining only to be turned away again. In the meantime, if you send me a PM with your email address, I will send a 'private' link to whichever file(s) you are after. Bruce |
Re: Using Y-Intercepts to research the Luftwaffe
Hi Bruce,
I have the same problems with the October '42 disposition files. I can open everything else, but that link I don't have the "necessary privileges to access". Cheers Adam |
Re: Using Y-Intercepts to research the Luftwaffe
Adam & Don: try now, if no luck then I will repost them. I think it may have a been a rookie mistake on my part.
" Allied assessment of German Air Force dispositions October 1942 (includes German ASR) ..." Don, is this the one you meant? Bruce |
Re: Using Y-Intercepts to research the Luftwaffe
Hi Bruce --
Yes, that's the file that interests me. I can now pull it up on humyo. But my efforts to read it, by enlarging, saving, or printing it, does nothing but freeze my computer. Any more hints? Don |
Re: Using Y-Intercepts to research the Luftwaffe
Hello Bruce,
1st - I can download, read & print the files, 2nd - very goot stuff Thank you Darius |
Re: Using Y-Intercepts to research the Luftwaffe
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Darius, glad you find it useful. HTH, Bruce |
Re: Using Y-Intercepts to research the Luftwaffe
Hi Bruce --
Still trying to download, and still hanging my trusty eMac. Something to do with applets... I'll try again, let the pinwheel spin a while longer, and go read the paper. Don |
Re: Using Y-Intercepts to research the Luftwaffe
Hi Bruce --
I'm back in business. There's apparently a problem with my eMac-humyo-Java interface, and I can't download folders, but I stumbled on the correct humyo arrow & can download a page-at-a-time. This looks like a useful file. Can you recommend anything else on Reich air defense activity from your HW-level ULTRA searches? Thanks again, Don |
Re: Using Y-Intercepts to research the Luftwaffe
To continue the material relating to autumn 1942, here is a link to an Air Activity Summarry from October ...
https://www.humyo.com/10203701/AIR%2...%20Oct%201942/ This might also be of interest to Don. Bruce |
Re: Using Y-Intercepts to research the Luftwaffe
Thanks Bruce --
I'm OOT, but what I can see of this report looks very interesting. I'll continue fighting the humyo fight as soon as I get back home. By any chance, do you have similar reports covering later months in the war, after the USAAF got into it big time? Don |
Re: Using Y-Intercepts to research the Luftwaffe
Many thanks, Bruce. I can see all the pags now. Thanks for posting the very useful files
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Re: Using Y-Intercepts to research the Luftwaffe
A report on the Allied view of German aircraft reporting system including the German Y service.
https://www.humyo.com/10203701/Allie...20Y%20service/ The subjects covered range from chain-of-command to security procedures in place for coded messages. Bruce |
Re: Using Y-Intercepts to research the Luftwaffe
A January 1943 summary of Operation names known to have been used by German forces, prepared by the Admiralty.
https://www.humyo.com/10203701/Germa...ation%20names/ Bruce |
Re: Using Y-Intercepts to research the Luftwaffe
I'm hearing mixed stories about the HUMYO links on my files. Because I am the account holder, I do not see the same page, or get asked the same questions, as 'public' users who arrive at the site through the links I provide. The only way I will know if people have a problem is if you speak up. How easy or difficult are people finding it? (I have thick skin, so speak plainly please)
Bruce |
Re: Using Y-Intercepts to research the Luftwaffe
No problems here.
Does anyone know the signature of the files covering the Operation CRUSADER period in North Africa (Oct 41 to Feb 42 incl.)? Many thanks! All the best Andreas |
Re: Using Y-Intercepts to research the Luftwaffe
Hello Andreas, there are many files at TNA covering Operation Crusader: some are ...
AIR23/910, 946, 1181, 6479: HW50/42: PREM3/291/2: and many in the WO series. The operation is also part of the content of other files. Is there anything in particular you are looking for? Bruce |
Re: Using Y-Intercepts to research the Luftwaffe
Hi Bruce
Many thanks for the reply. Primarily operational detail. I have started on the HW5 series, and have worked extensively with the WO series, HW1, and some AIR and ADM, as well as German records from Duxford. I was particularly interested in the Y-service intercepts for the period and where they could be found. All the best Andreas |
Re: Using Y-Intercepts to research the Luftwaffe
Hello Andreas,
Based on other files viewed, I think HW50/42 is likely to have sources, possibly even transcripts, but I have not seen it myself. AIR41/25 has a lot of information concerning the plans for Crusader derived from Y, and can be taken as a summary of the AI picture based on Y. If you have not seen it already, I strongly suggest 'Spies of the Airwaves' by Hugh Skillen. He gives considerable detail about the Allied side of the North African ops. Let me know if you need access to the book. Regards, Bruce |
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Re: Using Y-Intercepts to research the Luftwaffe
Many thanks to both of you. The tip on the Wing is good, I'll look into this. Air 41/25 looks very very promising. I wonder if that could be part of Tedder's 'missing' despatch?
Book ordered! All the best Andreas |
Re: Using Y-Intercepts to research the Luftwaffe
IIRC the presecessor of No. 276 Wing in the Med (i.e. before Autumn 1943) was No. 329 Wing but I don't know if they were there as early as the Crusader period.
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Re: Using Y-Intercepts to research the Luftwaffe
Hi Andreas/Nick: I have so far had no luck finding any 'mother lode' files of signals from North Africa. There are several files that give great descriptions of the Units and their organisation, but (I think) the daily output was handed straight to the AI officer who incorporated the findings into his reports.
I will bet someone reading this says something like '... but don't they know about ...' and Hey! Presto! the key document is identified. How about, as a suggestion, the people who have spent time looking for this information compare notes? It is always irritating to find that one has followed the wasted journey of another, and likewise rewarding to find that something already viewed is useful to someone else: I will gladly donate some on-line storage space to housing any files others want to share. Maybe nothing will come of it, but what do others think? Bruce |
Re: Using Y-Intercepts to research the Luftwaffe
Good idea, and I wish I could contribute to that.
As for 329 Wing, a quick trawl of the Catalogue at the National Archives shows no mention before 1943. All the best Andreas |
Re: Using Y-Intercepts to research the Luftwaffe
This may help a bit? From the OH, organisation of RAF Middle East on 11 November 41.
http://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/UN/U...AF-II-p382.jpg According to this: http://www.rafweb.org/Wings4.htm Signals wing was only: No. 250 and this wing is not given with any aircraft type. But... I can't find any records in the National Archives. All the best Andreas |
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