Staka 6.(F)/Aufkl.Gr. 123?
 

Doug Stankey and I are wondering if anyone has ever come across the identity of the Staffelkapitän of 6.(F)/Aufkl.Gr. 123, which was based at Cormeilles-en-Vexin from the end of April 1944 to mid-August 1944 when it withdrew via Deelen to Köthen, south-east of Magdeburg, and there disbanded in September. This was a Horch- und Stör-Staffel engaged in highly classified experimental and operational missions controlled by the II. Abteilung of the Ln.-Versuchs-Rgt. at Köthen, and accordingly information about the personnel assigned to it is hard to come by. Any information identifying its Staka or anyone even suspected of being its Staka would be much appreciated.

HLdeZ & DGS

Re: Staka 6.(F)/Aufkl.Gr. 123?
 

I've got the attached which may be a clue. I don't have the previous message they mention, though.

Re: Staka 6.(F)/Aufkl.Gr. 123?
 

Thanks, Nick,that's an interesting intercept and fits in nicely with other material I have on the Staffel. We only have two SCHWEIGLs in our data base and one of them was an Oberstabsarzt M.D. The other fellow is Hans SCHWEIGL, who on 24 June 1943 was an Oblt. with II./LG 1. He was wounded on that date during an Allied air raid on Salonika-Sedes airfield carried out by 49 B-24s from IX Bomber Command. Unfortunately, we don't know the position he held with II./LG 1. An educated guess would be that SCHWEIGL was the T.O. of Aufkl.St. 6.(F)/123 rather than the Staka, but that's just speculation.

Larry

Re: Staka 6.(F)/Aufkl.Gr. 123?
 

For what it's worth, the Staffelkapitäne of 4. and 5.(F)/123 were signing their strength returns at this period. So it's possible that the 6. followed suit.

Re: Staka 6.(F)/Aufkl.Gr. 123?
 

That could well be. I don't have KStN 1123 Fernaufklärungsstaffel (F), 1. Februär 1944, Personalgliederung, BA-MA RL 2/III/573, but it may stipulate that the Staffelkapitän and the technisches Offizier are one and the same as a result of the "Personal Einsparungsmaßnahmen" that were being put into force. I think the T.O. at Staffel-level was an additional duty, anyway, so it could well be the same person here. Thanks,

Larry

Re: Staka 6.(F)/Aufkl.Gr. 123?
 

Just found a bigger and better set of returns, definitely signed by the TO although there is one Leutnant pilot named this time.

Re: Staka 6.(F)/Aufkl.Gr. 123?
 

Interesting, Nick, interesting............the Staffel's chronic low to non-existent serviceability correlates with ADI(K) 160/44 in which the P/W goes on about the rarity of an operational mission for Aufkl.St. 6.(F)/123 due to the aircraft being deadlined all the time so Ln. personnel from Köthen could install and repair special radio intercept and jamming equipment in them.

Thanks for the additional details, which once again show how much ULTRA traffic there was that never made it into the 50,000 signals that were selected by Hut 3 to forward to the Allied commands in the field. It makes some of us from the left side of the pond wish we were U.K.ers so we could access these more recent HW groupings that began opening around 1995/1996 or so!

Larry

Re: Staka 6.(F)/Aufkl.Gr. 123?
 

A list of fl.person. at that time

Busch fw f 6 F123 25 8 44 Flugklar
Buschbeck fw f 6 F123 22 8 44 Aussen dienst
Czach oblt 6 F123 KG66 19 5 44
Dewilde hptm 6 F123 KG66 19 5 44
Gäbler fw 6 F123 KG66 17 5 44 zgk überf, fl, n, Beauvais
Grossöphoff ofw 6 F123 KG66 17 5 44 zgk überf, fl, n, Beauvais
Hauck fw 6 F123 KG66 5 44 Aus i, andere Dienst beschäf,
Hauck fw f 6 F123 26 6 44 Ausser Dienst
Hauck fw f 6 F123 22 8 44 Flugklar
Mielke fw 6 F123 KG66 17 5 44 zgk überf, fl, n, Beauvais
Pätz fw f 6 F123 26 6 44 Flugklar
Pätz fw f 6 F123 5 7 44 Flugklar
Pätz fw f 6 F123 22 8 44 Aussen dienst
Polzien uffz 6 F123 KG66 17 5 44 zgk überf, fl, n, Beauvais
Polzin uffz f 6 F123 26 6 44 Ausser Dienst
Polzin uffz f 6 F123 5 7 44 Bedingt flugklar
Schäfer fw 6 F123 KG66 19 5 44
Schieck fw f 6 F123 26 6 44 Ausser Dienst
Schieck fw f 6 F123 5 7 44 Flugklar
Schieck fw f 6 F123 22 8 44 Flugklar
Schittenhelm ofw f 6 F123 22 8 44 Lazarett
Schpeck fw 6 F123 KG66 5 44 Aus i, andere Dienst beschäf,
Schulte fw f 6 F123 5 7 44 Flugklar
Schulte ofw f 6 F123 22 8 44 Krank
Schulte fw f 6 F123 26 6 44 Flugklar
Seifert uffz f 6 F123 26 6 44 Ausser Dienst
Seifert uffz f 6 F123 5 7 44 Bedingt flugklar
Stanzel uffz f 6 F123 22 8 44 Flugklar
Suhr oblt 6 F123 KG66 19 5 44
Vogt uffz 6 F123 17 6 44 Zgk Lazarett
Wilfert ltn f 6 F123 22 8 44 Flugklar
Wirth uffz f 6 F123 22 8 44 Aussen dienst

Remi

Re: Staka 6.(F)/Aufkl.Gr. 123?
 

Hi Remi -

That's a VERY helpful list! For the purpose of identifying the Staffelkapitän only, here are a few comments about the possibilities from your list:

Czach oblt 6 F123 KG66 19 5 44
[No one by that name in the 1 August 1944 DAL; possibly Oblt. Hans CZECH, 02.45 Hptm., appt Staka 1.(F)/Aufkl.Gr. 100 (to 03.45)?].

Dewilde hptm 6 F123 KG66 19 5 44
[This definitely is Hptm. (Ln.) Heinz de WILDE (DOB: 16.01.14), transferred from RLM (Chef N.V.W.) to 15./KG 6 on 09.04.43].

Suhr oblt 6 F123 KG66 19 5 44
[This is Oblt. (Ln.) Claus-Dieter SUHR, RDA 1.2.43].

Could the Staka have been an Ln. officer? If so, then de WILDE is a strong possibility. If not, then Oblt. Czach (CZECH?) is the most like candidate.

Could you check your list and see if Czach is perhaps misspelled? I can find no one by the name of Czach in any Luftwaffe officer directories, aircrew or otherwise, so I strongly suspect that this may be a misspelling.

Thanks,

Larry

Re: Staka 6.(F)/Aufkl.Gr. 123?
 

Hello Larry,

Czach, is the name found in the doc, in fact Ultra docs one more time, not the first time that names in Ultra are mispelled,
The report says,
"Change of crew report
fw Schäfer back from leave,
Dewilde Czach Suhr today in Buc
Note ; certainly from Herkules 3.KG66 to 6.F123"

So even not sure if those men were from 6.F123, I remarked ties between F123 nd KG66 a Ln officer on KG66 is not a surprise

Remi

Re: Staka 6.(F)/Aufkl.Gr. 123?
 

"Herkules" is just a Luftwaffe term for "strength" (of a unit), like "angels" = "altitude" in the RAF. It comes up a lot in these HW5 reports.

Re: Staka 6.(F)/Aufkl.Gr. 123?
 

Thanks for checking on the spelling, Remi. Yes, the spellings in the ULTRA intercepts are very often corrupted, so CZACH could very easily be CZECH. I am going to contact Marcel H. in the Netherlands and see if he ever came across a CZACH or a CZECH in his research on KG 66.

Thanks again,

Larry

Have you tried "ZECH"?
 

Hi Larry,

Yes, the 3./KG66 "Horch- und Störstaffel" is notoriously difficult because of the lack of information.... A true nail in my "research coffin"!

Sometimes I even wonder whether this unit really belonged to I./KG66 as a true element ( I mean people mixing socially with personnel of the other Staffeln) or just placed under I./KG66 for a temporary period for administrative reasons.... (only part of I./KG66 in name, so to speak)

So far I have only found 2 losses of this unit in my lists and some info in ADI(K) reports. These reports confirm the use of Cormeilles-en-Vexin as THE airfield for 3./KG66 and Heinz de Wilde (misspelled as "de Milde") as its Staffelkapitän. (BTW: Oblt "Böhmann" is mentioned as being 5./KG66's Staffelkapitän.)

Regarding "Czach" or "Czech": Have you already tried "ZECH" in your database? In German the pronounciation will (almost) be the same...

I have for example an Ofw Eduard Zech (DoB 23-3-1921, KIA by strafing 23-3-1944), Gruppekommandeur Major Schmidt's Beobachter.

Best regards,

Marcel

Re: Staka 6.(F)/Aufkl.Gr. 123?
 

Hi Marcel,

Thanks for your input and for your e-mail a couple of weeks ago. After analyzing your comments and other information, I have settled the the following together with the accompanying footnote:

Staffelkapitän:
Hptm. (Ln.) Heinz de Wilde? (25 April 1944 - September 1944?)[1]


[1] Hptm. de Wilde had been the Staffelkapitän of 3./K.G. 66 and is believed to have continued in this position when 3./K.G. 66 became Aufkl.St. 6.(F)/123 on 25 April 1944. Other possibilities might be an Oblt. Hans Czech and/or an Oblt. (Ln.) Claus-Dieter Suhr.



This allows me to cover several other possibilities in the event the primary choice (de Wilde) is wrong.

Thanks again,

Larry