B17 losses 2 march 1945
 

Hi,

12 USAAF b17 have been lost the 2 march 1945, 10 above Germany, Austria and Czecoslovakia macr 12812,12847,12851,12852,12853,12855,12856,12857,12 858,12859
2 into the Channel (macr 12846 - 12848).

The same day, around 15h00 am (french time) a b17 exploded over the village of St Inglevert (Northern France - between Calais and Marquise - along the coast). One of its engine felt on a house, killing a young woman.
This engine has just been unearthed this year and is a Wright cyclone, a little part is marked Boeing.
From an old witness, an airman may have been have found, unopened chute, dead.

However not one of the above has been found in this french area.

Is there another possible B17 bomber?

Thanks for help

Wise62

not one of the planes above corresponds to this event

Re: B17 losses 2 march 1945
 

These two B-17's are listed as a mid-air collision over the North Sea? Perhaps?

There won't be a MARC due to the crash taking place over friendly territory.


http://www.aviationarchaeology.com/s...2=Go&offset=75
450302 B-17G 44-8697 413BS 96BG 138 8 KMAC 4 Stilwell, Herbert H NSE
450302 B-17G 43-37767 339BS 96BG 138 8 KMAC 4 Gatch, Benton R Jr NSE

Re: B17 losses 2 march 1945
 

Revi16, there are MACRs for this collision, there are also accident reports. The collision occurred at 0820.

MACR 12846 is for 44-8697 and MACR 12848 is for 43-37767.

Re: B17 losses 2 march 1945
 

Good evening wise62

This day, 1st AD attacked on it's mission oil-targets in East-Germany refinery-areas and had an extraordinary amount of losses class FTR LOC (Failed to return, loss ocured behind friendly lines). This means, that the aircraft didn't make it to it's home base, but somewhere in allied territory, between the German hold territory and the home base it landed, in which condition ever.

Under these circumstances, no MACR was compiled, since the USAAF received quickly information, what happened to the crew and the aircraft.

This 2nd March 1945, 1st Air Division had 15 incidents like that. Close candidates for your accident are:

- 92nd BG, 327th BS, B-17G-95-BO s/n 43-38853, salvaged 17 March 45
- 351st BG, 509th BS, B-17G-80-BO s/n 43-38116, on March 3rd to
2nd Strategic Air Depot, salvaged March 4th 1945.
- 398th BG, 603rd BS, B-17G-45-BO s/n 42-97313, salvaged 14 April 45

This incidents could match up with your description of the reports for that day. All other B-17 FTR-LOC incidents that day are not really matching up, since the particular unit regained in March or April 1945 their a/c, which went FTR-LOC that 2nd March 1945.


Hope this helps

Best wishes !

Horst Weber

Re: B17 losses 2 march 1945
 

Wise62,

MACRs contain the aircraft engine serial number(s). Whether anyone has indexed these I do not know. But if you can locate the serial number on the recovered Wright Cyclone engine, someone may be able to find the corresponding MACR. Assuming there is such a MACR.

Enjoy!

Frank.

Re: B17 losses 2 march 1945
 

wise62,
One question that always comes up in these types of investigations is.... how certain are you of the date? Are there written records from that time that give that date? If March 2nd is the date the woman died, is it possible she was injured prior to her death?

It has been my experience (having done several of these kinds of investigations) that a "remembered" date is quite often wrong.

Re: B17 losses 2 march 1945
 

B-17 42-37818 "Pub Pete/Dina Might" of BG390 BS568 crashed on 21.01.1944
at Hervelinghen which is near to St. Inglevert.

bye,
FrankieS

Re: B17 losses 2 march 1945
 

FrankieS, another interesting fact about the plane you found, 42-37818 is that the time last seen is given as 1500. The MACR 2270 does have the engine serial numbers, should it come to that.

Also, the right waist gunner's chute failed to open and he was found dead on the ground. He was buried in Marquise.

Re: B17 losses 2 march 1945
 

Horst,

one question regarding losses where no MACR was made.
I have found some 30 cases of B-17 and B-24 that fell in Yugoslavia, and MACR was not made since all crew was quickly evacuated through allied missions. Since it was behind enemy lines, Escapa statements was made.

In that case, was there any document made that contains serial numbers of engine, MG and plane?

Re: B17 losses 2 march 1945
 

I have not seen exact "rules" for whether or not a MACR needed to be filed.
There are many cases when a plane "landed" or even essentially "crash landed" in allied territory on the continent (i.e. it did no return to England) and no MACR was filed. I "think" in all those cases no crew were killed or at least none were "missing". Also, if the plane actually returned to base with dead aboard typically no MACR was filed.

If the plane returned but some crew members had bailed out and their whereabouts were unknown (there are cases like that), then a MACR was filed.

It may be that the key concept is whether or not crew members were actually "missing", e.g. in the North Sea in the case of the collision discussed above, behind enemy lines or even possibly in allied territory but not immediately known to be under allied "control"

Re: B17 losses 2 march 1945
 

hi Alls

Many thanks for answers.
Date of the crash is given by the death of a young woman who has been hurt by falling parts of the plane. His death has been recorded the 2 march 1945 around 15h00 (local time) by the local town administration.
I join pictures of the engine which has been refound

Wise62

Re: B17 losses 2 march 1945
 

Hmmm, the engine looks pretty broken up. I would guess the part labeled Boeing was part of the supporting strut for the engine. The starter is at the back of the engine but the serial number shown on that data plate will not be of much help. The serial number for the engine would have been on the lower front of the engine, below the propeller hub. The second picture shows some gears which may have been part of the hub but I can't say for sure.


As you say, the March 2nd date at 1500 is when the woman died. If she died immediately then what would be the date and time of the crash, however if she lived for some time after the crash, then it is possible?? the crash occurred on a different day. Are there town records which say the crash and death occurred at the same date and time?

Re: B17 losses 2 march 1945
 

unfortunatly no plate with the engine number has been found until now. the engine has been removed without caution by road workers and this plate must now be a few meters underground... The remaining parts of the engine are rather in bad conditions.
only the starter maker plate and the part marked boeing are readable.

Re: B17 losses 2 march 1945
 

I really don't know, since I haven't seen one yet. But you surely find this data in lists for the technical/maintenance branches of the units prior each mission.
For the engines, you need the a/c AAF s/n and the installed engine-s/n to track down by the flying hours the engine's next inspection. Perhaps, something like that existed for the MG, too.

But these are files, you may not find, if they still exist, in public archives. Here, I think you must go down to the unit's technical files of the individual a/c.

Best wishes !

Horst Weber

Re: B17 losses 2 march 1945
 

In the forefront of image #2 is the engine mount.

Tony

Re: B17 losses 2 march 1945
 

two more photos
From witnesses and local history: The young woman was found dead in the burned house the day of the crash.
Research continues here in St Inglevert...

Wise62

Re: B17 losses 2 march 1945
 

Wise62,

I have come up with a "possible" explanation for this incident and even a "possible"? plane.

On 2 March 1945 plane 43-38864 from the 398th BG and flown by Winsor O Coleman was hit by fighters over the target (Bohlen). According to the link given below, they made it all the way back to friendly territory where the crew bailed out. There is no MACR for this loss.

All of the crew were returned to base (although some were wounded) and they continued to fly missions. I don't know where the plane actually came down (or blew up in the air).

Perhaps someone has more information on this loss or other similar losses that day. Something like this would explain why there was no MACR (no crew were actually lost) and yet there was apparently a crash of a B-17.

The mission flown that day was over 10 hours long, so they may have been returning over France around 1500 hours.


Search for Coleman on this page for a brief mention:
http://carryingfire.blogspot.com/201...l-mission.html

There is some confusing info on the web with regards to the plane, such as here:
http://www.americanairmuseum.com/aircraft/12869

(I think perhaps Osborn and Baugher have the dates wrong i.e., MIA should be 2/3/45 not 2/5/45 and the salvage (write off) date perhaps should have been 3/3/45 not 3/5/45, (although that salvage date does show up below)


If you search for 43-38864 on this page, you see it was lost on 2 March 45.

http://www.398th.org/History/398th_A...BySquadron.pdf

Re: B17 losses 2 march 1945
 

RSwank

I think that you have solved the mystery of this B17.
About the dead aircrew found dead , chute unopened, the witness, very old (90) certainly confuses with the waist gunner of 42-37818, Ph. Marizzaldi, crashed also close to St Inglevert and who have been buried in Marquise (see document recorded in Marquise ) the 21/01/1944.
Many thanks for your very effective help.

Wise62

Re: B17 losses 2 march 1945
 

Wise62,

If you want to try to followup on this, you can probably contact the 398th BG at their website. www.398th.org

There is a photo of the Coleman crew, taken after this incident (so some crew members from the 2 March incident are not in the photo).

http://www.398th.org/Images/Images_C..._19450321.html

Three men who were on that flight that day received medals.

http://www.398th.org/Awards/DFC/DFC_...Cs_450529.html



You might try to contact Don Christensen (the son), author of the story about his father in which the Coleman crew is mentioned. He may have a little more info about the Coleman incident.
http://carryingfire.blogspot.com/

Note that 43-38864 was a "Boeing" built B-17, so it would have had Boeing marked engine support struts.


I will start a thread over on the armyairforces.com forum, maybe we can get some more information.

http://forum.armyairforces.com/threa...eman-crew.456/

Re: B17 losses 2 march 1945
 

Thanks for all theses informations and specialy for Coleman's crew photo.
I hope that you will have other one's with the armyairforce forum

Re: B17 losses 2 march 1945
 

I contacted Peter Kassak who wrote the book "An Ordinary Day in 1945" (which is about air war events of 2 March, 1945) to see if this incident in France or the Coleman crash are discussed and they are not.

http://www.amazon.com/An-Ordinary-Da.../dp/8389450224

So I have requested from the Air Force Historical Research Agency the reports of March 1945 for both the 398th BG and the 603rd BS. These usually come on CDs (for a fee) and take a few weeks. Hopefully they will contain enough information that we can determine whether of not the Coleman loss is the correct identification. It is interesting to note that the route flown by the groups that included the 398th that day was very close to St Inglevert. The route in and out was identical while over the continent, with the first check point being Cap Gris-Nez and the 2nd check point being northern Luxembourg. (Coming out, they flew back the same way, which would very likely put them very close to St Inglevert around 1500. Hopefully the documents I have requested can clarify these things.

Re: B17 losses 2 march 1945
 

hello

The 368th BG's public relations confirms that it is the 43-38864 which is involved in this event.
Another element from the witnesses in their recalled testimony.
The aircraft has been hit by german fighters and the aircrew was six. So it's very possible that someone has spoken to them when on the ground after bale out and so, know what happens to them above Germany.

Wise62

Re: B17 losses 2 march 1945
 

Wise62, this is good. Hopefully the reports I have requested will contain more details and the crew list. I did try to see if any of the crew members I have identified so far made any statements for the Veterans History Project here in the US but apparently not. I believe they are all dead now. It is possible to speculate on how events unfolded. They were over allied territory for quite a while on the way out and clearly, for some reason, decided not to try to land at one of the allied "emergency" airfields in Belgium or France. With wounded aboard and perhaps not able to safely land the plane they may have thought it was better to try and get home.

Re: B17 losses 2 march 1945
 

Hi
3 of 603's B17 landed in France at Merville (B-53) on the return flight :
Beckstrom-Steele (8871)
Worley (8631)
Ellis (7317)

Re: B17 losses 2 march 1945
 

Merville-Calonee, 50°37'17"N 002°38'38"E is right on their route out. It will be interesting to see if we can located where they bailed out. It could well have been at/near Merville if they felt they could not land the plane.

http://www.ronaldv.nl/abandoned/airf....html#Merville

Re: B17 losses 2 march 1945
 

I received the 396th BG history and the 603rd Squadron History from the AFHRA. As is typical, many pages are hard to read but with some effort "readable". The bad news is they contain nothing about the exact circumstances of what happened to the Coleman crew. They did not return on the 2nd and they were flying 43-38864 but there is little else.

There is a crew list for the 2nd of March mission:
Coleman, Swan, Murphy, Warren, Roby, Wenig, Hush, Richardson, Alderson.

Coleman and Swan flew a mission on March 5th. Incuded on that crew were Murphy, Warren, Roby and Hush.


On March 6, Alderson, Wenig and Richardson received Purple Hearts.

Coleman was promoted to 1st Lt towards the end of March.

Re: B17 losses 2 march 1945
 

I have made contact with relatives of both Coleman and Swan. From what I have learned it would appear the Coleman put their badly damaged plane down at an airfield in Belgium. Thus their plane would not be the one that exploded over St Inglevert. Furthermore, I now do not believe that any of the 398th planes were involved as I think I can account for all of them that did not return to England on 2 March. (I noticed it wrote "396th" BG instead of 398th in the post above. Apparently too much time has gone by and I can't correct it.)