Losses of GRB No. 1 "Lorraine" in North Africa
 

I was wondering if anyone has perhaps a list of losses (airplane and crew - KIA, WIA or Survivors) of the famous Free French Groupe de Bombardement N°1 "Lorraine" during its deployment in North Africa in support of the 8th British Army, i.e. from October 1941 to October 1942 with an emphasize on the losses which occurred around or during the El-Alamein battle. I have recently met a man whose uncle served with this group. Interesting thing is that he served at first with the Légion étrangèr in Syria (probably 6th REI) - he was non-French - and then joined the Free French Groupe de Bombardement N°1 "Lorraine" in Damascus as radio (wireless) operator and stayed with it until the end of the war and was demobilised as sergent-chef in Paris in 1946.
His airplane was shot down during the battle of El-Alamein (or at least he claimed so, exact place and date unknown) and he was the sole survivor. The pilot was killed and he managed to survive a week in the desert until he was found half-dead by Allied patrol and brought to a hospital in Alexandria (Egypt).

I am hoping his nephew will scan some of his photos from that time. :D

Any help would be deeply appreciated. :lol:

Klemen

The book "Aviateurs de la liberté" will list all members of the FAFL killed during the war (definition of a member of the FAL being people who joined a FAFL unit (not an ex-Vichy one) before 30 June 1943 and their fusion with the Armée de l'Air in North Africa).

So all crewen of GB 1 killed in North Africa will be in this book.

Edited: sadly, I have not this book myself, I have only used it in SHAA archives. So can't help more

GB1
 

Kemen,


The man you are looking for could be Henri SOULAT. On 5 december 1941 their Blenheim collided with another Blenheim from 45 sqdn. Capitaine De Maismont was injured ( then killed on 15 october 1944 at Harfordbridge) and Sergent Fifre dead some hours later.

Then Henri (?) Soulat was flying with GB1 and later on 342 sqdn where he did 54 ops missions between 20 december 1943 and 12 september 1944. He was as wireless operator of Cpitaine Emile Allegret and François Sommer.

Please note the Pierre Fenaux de Maismont came from Légion Etrangére then navigator in Syria before joining the GB1.

I hope this helps,

Bertrand H

Hi Laurent & Bertrand!

To Laurent first:

Thank you Laurent for recommending me this book. However ther eis just one "tiny-biny problem" and that is that the crewman in question survived the crash and war. He recovered from his wounds, went with the squadron to England and eventually took part in the Normandy invasion, but not anymore as an air crewman. According to his newphew he did not fly anymore after around 1943, but served instead as an expert in the communications and radio transmissions as part of the squadron's ground crew. He was apparently very talented in this, so they kept him to take care for radio equipment in Douglas Bostons.

Is there perhaps any book in France where a man could look for the names of all air and ground crew of the GB 1 respectively No. 342 (Free French) Squadron "Lorraine"? :roll:


And now to Bertrand:

Nice try Bertrand, but he isn't he I am afraid. :lol: According to his nephew his uncle told him that his aircraft has been hit from the ground (and not in air collision or dogfight) and he claimed that this took place during the time of El-Alamein battle, so I guess this puts this story very well into 1942. During the crash the pilot was dead, while he somehow survived. He was found about a week later half-dead and immediately taken to a military hospital in Alexandria. The rest of his story I have written in my reply to Laurent.

Yes, but this is not the man I am looking for, I am sure of this. he served in the Légion Etrangére in Syria until got himself transferred to the FFAF. He was not a Frenchman by birth like Pierre Fenaux de Maismont. I at first thought that he enlisted the Legion and FFAF under a second name, but his nephew says that on all his military service records and even marriage certificate (he married in 1944 in London) there is his real name and not a fake name.

Let me at the end again thank you from the bottom of my heart for your help. It was very helpful and I appreciate it very much.

Yours sincerly,

Klemen

List
 

***Is there perhaps any book in France where a man could look for the names of all air and ground crew of the GB 1 respectively No. 342 (Free French) Squadron "Lorraine"?***

Any book alas : to be written ! I have some private list but any book!


Bertrand

:?: :?: I take it it hasn't been written yet. Actually I had more on my mind a memorial book with the names of all members of the groupe/squadron that a squadron history.

Klemen

There are several tomes of the French review "Icare" about GB 1 and then Lorraine.

And there are usually unit history books (very crude, but will list ops, losses and awards at least) available in French archives for all WWII units, especially for FAFL ones. They are books written by veterans/associations or even the SHAA, not official papers dating from WWII-time. These are also available.

As for pointing "Aviateurs de la Liberté", I guess you know the name of the man you are searching, but this book will show you all human losses of GB1 during 1942 and that will narrow your research. The name of survivor may also be mentionned (don't remember if this is always the case, it was for the cases I was interested in).

Yes, I do have the name of the man I am searching for (check your pm) but as I said I don't think I should look for the names of casualties, because he was not casualty in the strict meaning of the word if you know what I mean. He barely survived that crash though, but did survive. The information that the names of survivors are also mentioned is very encouraging and I thank you for telling me this.

Laurent, you will probably know this... Where can my friend (nephew of this man) find or order his personal service records? In SHAT or... :?: Do we need to follow any special procedures (only family members, fee ...)?

BTW: Your name sounds familiar to me. Have we already met on some other forum? :wink:

Best regards,

Klemen

Records
 

Personnal files should be available (to him (and probably family)) in the SHAT (Service Historique de l'Armée de Terre = Land Army Historical Service) for its service in Legion Etrangère.

They will be available in SHAA (Service Historique de l'Armée de l'Air = Air Army Historical Service) for its service in GB1.

At least I guess it will be like that.

As for meeting me elsewhere, I am active on several WWII forums for some years, usually under my full name or Laurent. One of my favorite is the RAF Commands forum and I thought we may have "met" there.

Edited : and I have nothing in my pm box ?

Hi Laurent!

Thank you, Laurent! Is the below written address of the SHAT a correct one or has changed in the past?

Monsieur le Chef
du Service historique de l'armée de terre
Château de Vincennes
BP 107 - 00481 ARMÉES

What should my friend write instead "Monsieur le Chef"?

BTW: Don't you write for the service records (matricules) of the legionnaires to the Legion Archive in Marseille-Aubagne?

Commandement de la Légion étrangère
Bureau des anciens, BP 38
13998 MARSEILLE ARMÉES

Judging by this site - http://jomave.chez.tiscali.fr/adgenweb/shat.html - they have the personal service records for all the legionnares who entered the Legion AFTER 1909, while for those before 1909 are available in the SHAT. is this correct? :roll:

The postal address:

LES ARCHIVES DU SERVICE HISTORIQUE DE L'ARMEE DE L'AIR
Château de Vincennes
B.P. 110 - 00481 ARMEES

Did I get it right? :roll:

No, no... I remember you now... We have met at my forum "Pacific War 1941-1945" on the Dutch East Indies 1941-1942 website. Is it not so? I still have a good memory, hehe... :lol:

Please check now. :wink:

lp,

Klemen

Hi Klemen,

Well, you're right. I posted several times on the forum "Pacific War 1941-1945", even if I am usually only able to ask there, not to answer. A really active and helpful forum IMOO.

As far as I know, you adresses are good. I would not write "Monsieur le Chef", except if this is asked on official documents, or it is the agreed costum. I did my military service there in 1996-97, and at the time the "chef" was a general while letter queries were usually treated by a sergent-chef (Warrant Officer) and never went higher than a captain.

Maybe I answered too fast, now that you have said it, I don't remember clearly where the WWII personnal files of the Legion may be. Other Army formations are in Vincennes.

The pm arrived. I'm afraid I won't be able to provide you any answer for the moment. I just started a new job and so can't visit the archives (closed on week-ends) and have nothing about this period on my books and files. Will add this to my "open questions" list...

Regards

Thank you for your kind words, Laurent. We are as much active as some larger forums, but most of the people who ask questions eventually get the answers they were looking for and I guess this is well accepted by all. Anyway I hope to see you more on the forum in the forthcoming months. :wink:

OK, Laurent. No "Monsieur le Chef" then. The address to the SHAA is correct or need any updates?

I see. I guess you worked hard but also enjoyed that year in the archive. But may I ask if the sender of the request for his relative's service records need to pay any fee (if so, how much?) and do you need to prove that you are a relative of this man whose records you are looking for or can you just order them? I have heard that in German archives you need to have all kinds of approval before you can order military service records of a certain serviceman. I don't know how this is taken care in France though.

I was right on this. You have to write now to the Legion's Museum & Archive in Marseille (address given in my previous message). I am left wondering however how do you order service records of a legionnaire who fought under a fake name?

No problem, Laurent. I wish you much luck on your new jobe and whenever you will have any free time to look for any data about my friend's uncle I (and I am sure he as well) will be very grateful to you.

BTW: He has just send me a letter yesterday. he has found some documents of his uncle during his time in the FFAF, including a permission issued by General Vallin and Bouscat by which they grant him the permission to marry his English girlfriend in March 1944. The document is signed by Gorri, the commander of the Group "Lorraine". This I believe is the nickname of Lt.Col. Michel Fourquet, am I right? By the way I don't know if this might be any helpful in your research for him but his registration (matricule) number in the FFAF was Nr. 35.272. He enlisted in the FFA in Beyrouth-Damascus on 12th September 1941. He joined the French Foreign Legion in Besancon on 8.4.1938. Friend also wrote that he has found some photos, including from the wedding. I hope he will be able to scan some of them.

Klemen

Seems OK to me, AFAIK

Actually it is easier for a "customer" to have access to the archives than for people doing their military period here (of course now there is no more military service in France but this was the case in 96-97). I actually learned far more in the SHAA and SHM (Navy) at the time and still continued to spend more time in these two services than in SHAT.

Years ago, there were not fees (AFAIK). Don't know how it evolved, now that there are no more young underpaid soldiers to do the bigger work and should pay everybody.... But I would guess it is easier than in Germany. AFAIK German archives rules were reinforced to stop militaria collectors to find veteran's families. There is not a big market of French WWII militaria.