Lev Shestakov
 

Hello,

how come Lev Shestakov is associated with 8+31sh kills in the Spanish Civil War ? Is this a total hoax ?

Michael

Re: Lev Shestakov
 

The big number of shared air victories (31) may reflect the total of air victories of the air unit in which Shestakov served in the Spanish Civil War during his service time. If he was a active pilot and took part in many air combats it is not all strange if his "shared kills" score is high. However it is difficult to tell how big his part was in those air combats in which he was credited with a "share kill". He might have actually contributed something to the "unit kill" or he may well have been just flying around without contributing anything significant to the kills credited "officially" as "shared kills" to him.

The system of shared air victories was very generous in Spanish Republican Air Force as well as in some other air forces - compare for example the French Air Force in WW2. Pilots of patrullas (swarms) or even whole escuadrillas (squadrons) could be credited by downing the one and same enemy aircraft. Thus many pilots could be credited by shooting down a enemy aircraft in a combat in which actually one enemy plane was shot down. I remember to have read about one French case in which as many as 8 pilots were credited with a "share kill" from a combat in which just one enemy plane was shot down. In that case there were pilots of two units involved so it produced 2 "unit kills" which even that was overclaiming 2:1. From the Soviet-Finnish Winter War I have read about one case in which as many as 12 Soviet pilots were credited with a "shared" air victory from the combat in which just one Finnish aircraft was shot down (claims of 25 IAP on 2.2.1940, IIRC). Later these shared claims were "upgraded" to the highly exaggerated claim that as many as 12 Finnish planes were shot down in that single combat!

With the shared claims it is difficult to tell if the pilot actually contributed to some significant way to the combat or was just flying around without getting a single shot on enemy aircraft claimed to be shot down. The generously given group/shared "kills" are known to lead to confused and often highly inflated air victory records.

Re: Lev Shestakov
 

Hello GuerraCivil,

thanks for your answer. However, is there any hope of ever finding out the decimal value of these 31 shared kills ?

Have a nice weekend,

Michael

Re: Lev Shestakov
 

I guess that any attempt to verify the decimal value of Lev Shestakov´s shared aereal kills in Spanish Civil War is hopeless task. There is even disagreement about his individual score. Some literary/web sources claim that his "full individual" claim score in Spanish Civil War were only 2 confirmed + 1 probable, others put it up to eight "confirmed" and some argue that it might have been as many as 11. So when even his "invidual score" is somewhat a puzzle it is even more difficult to find out how accurate the "shared score" actually was.

If you are really interested, you can try to browse Håkans Aviation Page about the airwar in Spain - see http://surfcity.kund.dalnet.se/scw.htm - there might be some details on Shestakov. There are also some good books about Soviet pilots and air advisors in Spanish Civil War - these surely have something on Shestakov and probably tell also something about his "kill score" in Spain.

Anyway I would not compare Shestakov´s score with those of real top aces of Spanish Civil War. For example J. García Morato´s 40 air victory record was based on indivdidual claims and is therefore more clear stuff than Shestakov´s 2½/8/11 individual (?) + 31 shared (?).

There is also the further issue of comparing the claims with recorded enemy losses. In that case J. García Morato´s score would be easier and more thankful individual case study than trying to find any "true" decimal value to Shestakov´s shared kills.

Re: Lev Shestakov
 

Hmm, the Morato issue is rather easy I think.

Has Shestakov's Spain score ever been officially confirmed or published by Soviet authorities, newspapers, communiqués ?

Michael

Re: Lev Shestakov
 

Hello Michael,

In total Lev Shestakov in Spain made more than 100 fighting departures, I participated in 36 air fights, personally I brought down 2 fighters (Me-109 and Fiat-32) and together with other pilot of 1 Me-109:
00.08.1937 1/2 Ме-109
22.12.1937 1 Fiat-32 Teruel
00.12.1937 1 Ме-109 Teruel

Oleg Kaminski

Re: Lev Shestakov
 

Hello Oleg,

2,5 [2+1] SpCW kills sound very reasonable to me.

For completeness, these are the figures in my books:
-Morgan (1997): 22+36
-Polak (1999): 8+31 in SpCW, 15+11 in GPW
-Mellinger (2005): 15+11
-Maslov (2010): 23+44 (5+8 in I-16)

I'm wondering especially about the Polak figures because they have been widely spread. I wish I knew what his sources were.

Have a splendid new year 2016 !

Michael

Re: Lev Shestakov
 

This counts what has been done by M. Bykow and his fundamnetal book "All Stalin's Aces", Moskwa 2014, p. 1336, the rest books are simple more or less mumbo-jumbo material about Soviet aces.

regards
mw

Re: Lev Shestakov
 

Hello Mirek,

hmm, "All Stalin's Aces" by Bykow ain't available in Germany.
Which Shestakov score does it indicate ?

Michael

Re: Lev Shestakov
 

100 % Russian, very simple, easy

mw

Re: Lev Shestakov
 

I cannot speak Russian, nor read Cyrillic...

MZ

Re: Lev Shestakov
 

it is easy, just try, it is simple

Re: Lev Shestakov
 

I think I'm patient enough to wait till somebody provides an answer in English, German, French or Italian.

Re: Lev Shestakov
 

Hello there Gentlemen,

this is the best Shestakov victory log I found so far
http://soviet-aces-1936-53.ru/abc/sh/shestak_ll.htm
As far I understand it doesn't explain how the story about the 8+31sh Spain kills started.

Cheers,

Michael

Re: Lev Shestakov
 

Slightly off topic , one thing I never found out is the PZL-34 claimed near Odessa exactly on my birth day and month ( Aug 9,41) . Through my Roumanian records I could not find any PZL34 missing on that day as between 5.8. to 19.8.1941 there were no Romanian losses marked on their records at all .According 69 IAP group history , Major Shestakov was moved as early as July 41 through early Oct 41 to train sea coastal air defense forces near Odessa and may not even been airborne on Aug 9,41.

Re: Lev Shestakov
 

The whole Shestakov story seems to be full of cock and bull stories, doesn't it ?

Michael

Re: Lev Shestakov
 

The whole Shestakov issue seems to be full of cock and bull stories, doesn't it ?

Michael

Re: Lev Shestakov
 

Unfortunately Genosse Knusel, I mst agree with you . Lev was deputy CO of 69 IAP with much political crop behind him . He is one of many Soviet pilots during WWII promoted by his political paths rather results . However, undoubtedly 69 IAP in similar to 67 IAP and 55 IAP was one of the most heroic fighter groups of the Soviets
in WWII

Re: Lev Shestakov
 

Oh. Very interesting.
Would you say that this is not the only case in which party membership increased a score ?

Michael

Re: Lev Shestakov
 

No not exactly but all results were politically reviewed before major decorations
and awards were approved .

Re: Lev Shestakov
 

The other day I heard that Pokryshkin had difficulties getting his claims confirmed because the government didn't want to advertise the American product P-39.

Re: Lev Shestakov
 

Yes possible however not aware about this specific story

Re: Lev Shestakov
 

Good evening researcher,

Shestakov's presumably faked result still render him the Soviet Spanish Civil War top ace rank at wikipedia.
Whom would you pronounce the real Soviet Spanish Civil War top ace ?
Lakeev ?

Michael

Re: Lev Shestakov
 

...Lakeev ?
...Osipenko?