Re: German overclaims in the East. Hartmann and others...
 

I have already told earlier that matching pilots has never been the centre of my research. To find false claims, we would need to go through every single German-Hungarian claim. I have no time for this and I am not planning it. However, eg. I recall a La-7 claim from Tóth Lajos on March 9, 1945, which cannot be verified from soviet sources, even if it was verified by a witness from his own flight. It was a high altitude dogfight and the falling plane probably did not crash, but recovered near ground level and returned home.

But I also found REAL VICTORIES, which have never been approved, - two of them have never been reported! Sure, false claims are more frequent than these rare cases. But for instance, I found two more victories for Hungary's top scoring ace, Szentgyörgyi Dezső. So far he was credited 33 victories and I found two more for him. (Certainly all the previous claims still should be verified.)

For instance, on March 20, 1945 he downed a La-7. But until the new soviet documents, nobody knew, that this downed La-7 -while pulling into the clouds-, in the next few seconds collided with his wingman and as a result, BOTH 5 VA, 179 GvIAP La-7s (S/N: 45210501 and 45210353) crashed - some time apart!
Both pilots bailed out and laded safely, therefore they are not listed in the regiment's personnel losses. (OBD)

What to say now? Szentgyörgyi saw, reported and then got credited for only one La-7, but now from the new documents we know, that due to his action two La-7s failed to return from their mission! Interesting, isn't it?

History is sometimes much more complicated than we think. And I think this is just the tip of the iceberg...... I am sure much more interesting things will be found along this fascinating road...
Cheers,

Gabor

Re: German overclaims in the East. Hartmann and others...
 

:D

thanks HGabor, it´s enough for me

kind regards

Re: German overclaims in the East. Hartmann and others...
 

Folks,

Here is the list to the question about Fábián István, Hungarian Bf 109G ace. First claims on the Eastern Front, plus 1 (+2 unsure) claims on American planes in the summer of 1944. His list has a few confusing points, therefore it still needs further investigation.

Claim No., Date .....Reported AC ...Real victim

07 ….. 13.11.44. Yak-9 ……….....A veeeery messy day. Probable Yak- victory at 14:48, but cannot match for sure to any losses. (Too many options from 5 VA, 13 GvIAD and 331 IAD.)
08 ….. 21.12.44. La-5 ………......Found no permanent loss, but: I know the 17 VA, 194 IAD La-5 losses only between December 25, 1944 and VE-Day. Based on location it could be a 194 IAD plane, so still needs investigation!
09 ….. 16.01.45. Pe-2R ………....Overclaim. Plane escaped with 56 hits and landed on one wheel at Madocsa. 17 VA, 39 ORAP, l-t Makarov crew.
10 ….. 16.01.45. Yak-9 ………....Yak-3, S/N: 2917, 17 VA, 288 IAD, 659 IAP, ml.l-t Galkin (KIA)
11 ….. 19.02.45. La-5 ………......La-5F, S/N: 39215021, 17 VA, 295 IAD, 164 IAP, ml.l-t Emec (KIA) Crashed and broke at landing after the battle, having serious combat damages.
12 ….. 19.02.45. La-5 ………......La-5??? - Most likely an overclaim, no close match in soviet records.
13 ….. 13.03.45. IL-2 ……….......Probably IL-2m3, S/N: 1877483, 17 VA, 306 ShAD, 951 ShAP, l-t Tumashev (KIA) crew. (A Close case, but details match for only about 75%. Needs more investigation.)
14 ….. 19.03.45. IL-2 ……….......Probably IL-2m3, S/N: 18835124, 17 VA, 136 ShAD, 989 ShAP, gv.ml.l-t Buryakovskii (KIA) crew. (A Close case, but details match for only about 75%. Needs more investigation.)

Gabor

Re: German overclaims in the East. Hartmann and others...
 

hi,
many thanks
about 21.12.44 i have other date:

20.12.44 Sgt La 5 Me 109G 101/2 FS Pilote Edr 10

my info comes from:

http://www.cieldegloire.fr/008_fabian.php

maybe your info is the correct....

regards

Re: German overclaims in the East. Hartmann and others...
 

Either way... For 17 VA, 194 IAD I have data for only after December 25, 1944... So I dunno... :)

Gabor

Re: German overclaims in the East. Hartmann and others...
 

Folks,

and finally: 2Lt. Tóth Lajos, Hungarian Bf 109G ace's soviet claims over Hungary and Austria in 1944-1945:

Claim No., Date .....Reported AC ...Real victim

14 ….. 13.11.44. Yak-9 ………......Unsure about this, several 5 VA Yak- options
15 ….. 16.11.44. IL-2 ………........Unsure about this, having not enough records for 17 VA for that early date.
16 ….. 05.12.45. Yak-9 ……….....Unsure about this
17 ….. 09.12.44. Yak-9 ……….....Unsure, three 17 VA, 288 IAD Yak options.
18 ….. 04.01.45. La-5 ……….......La-5FN, 17 VA, 194 IAD, 530 IAP, - see details in prev. comments.
19 ….. 21.01.45. Yak-9 ………......Unsure, - perhaps Yak-9D, S/N: 19166076
20 ….. 23.01.45. La-5 ……….......La-5F, S/N: 39215033, engine: 65033203, 17 VA, 295 IAD, 164 IAP, ml.l-t Grehovodov (KIA)
21 ….. 23.01.45. La-5 ……….......La-5, 17 VA, 295 IAD, 31 IAP, ml.l-t Abrarov (KIA)
22 ….. 09.03.45. La-7 ……….......Overclaim, found no such soviet loss, probably just damaged. (La-7, ~5 VA, 14 GvIAD, 179 GvIAP)
23 ….. 20.03.45. Yak-9 ………......Found no such permanent loss, probably damaged.
24 ….. 13.04.45. La-7 ……….......La-7, S/N: 45211044, engine: 82132741, tactical white '44', 5 VA, 14 GvIAD, 177 GvIAP, ml.l-t Petr Fedorovich Ivanchenko (KIA) at Austria, Vienna-N, -NW
25 ….. 14.04.45. IL-2 ……….......IL-2m3, S/N: 18872120, engine: 2514148, 17 VA, 136 ShAD, 210 ShAP, l-t Simanskii - Ionin crew (KIA) at Austria, Stelcendorf(?)-N, 1 km
26 ….. 14.04.45. IL-2 ……….......IL-2m3, S/N: 1880702, engine: 259357, 17 VA, 306 ShAD, 951 ShAP, crew at Austria, Brodersdorf-NW, 500 m, ml.l-t Satanovskii - Plankin crew

Gabor

Re: German overclaims in the East. Hartmann and others...
 

Folks,

here is Peter Düttmann's list for Hungary from JG 52. Sorry to say, but this is also an "Eric Hartmann category", - or even much worse. Especially his "series of five IL-2s" on March 16, 1945 is absolutely ridiculous... I tried to be nice to him and "granted" a credit, if his claim was in a half an hour range with the soviet reports, if otherwise the other details (area, AC type, or at least the manufacturer) matched:


01/11/1944 Jak-9 - Found no permanent loss, probably just damaged
01/11/1944 Jak-9 - Yak-1B, S/N: 08175, 5 VA, 6 GvIAD, 73 GvIAP, gv.l-t Andrianov (POW)
01/11/1944 Jak-9 - Found no permanent loss, probably just damaged
01/11/1944 Jak-9 - Found no permanent loss, probably just damaged
07/11/1944 Jak-9 - Found no permanent loss, probably just damaged - one loss, but reported time is 4 hrs. late for it!!!! Impossible.
13/11/1944 Jak-11 - Found no permanent loss, probably just damaged, reported time is 1-2 hrs. wrong!
13/11/1944 Jak-11 - Found no permanent loss, probably just damaged, reported time is 1-2 hrs. wrong!
13/11/1944 Il-2mH. - Found no permanent loss, probably just damaged, closest reported hr. is 1.5 hrs. apart!
08/03/1945 Jak-3 - Yak-3, S/N: 310099, 17 VA, 288 IAD, 866 IAP, ml.l-t Yablochkin, KIA
08/03/1945 Jak-3 - Found no permanent loss, probably just another (damaged) 866 IAP - Yak-3 from the same flight.
09/03/1945 La-5 - Found no permanent loss, probably just damaged
09/03/1945 Il-2mH. - IL-2m3, S/N: 11610, 17 VA, 136 ShAD, 210 ShAP, ml.l-t Indyushkin - Krasilnikov crew KIA
11/03/1945 Jak-9 - Found no permanent loss, probably just damaged, reported hr. is too late!
11/03/1945 Jak-9 - Found no permanent loss, probably just damaged, reported hr. is too late!
11/03/1945 Jak-9 - Found no permanent loss, probably just damaged, reported hr. is too late!
14/03/1945 Boston - A-20G-40-DO, S/N: 43-21519, R-2600-23 engines: 43-105954 and 43-105698 at Pálinkaházpuszta, Seregélyes-SW, 17 VA, 244 BAD, 861 BAP (l-t Bahvalov - l-t Mayorov - c-a Zolotov - e-p Solianik crew, all 4 KIA. This soviet Boston has been found, recovered and identified by a nice data-plate just a few years ago. Plane exploded still in the air and remains covered the fields below. Flight of sixteen 17 VA, 861 BAP A-20 Bostons with the cover of only 2 (!) Yaks...) See: attached pic. below.
16/03/1945 Il-2mH. - Found no permanent loss, probably just damaged, probably from the formation of the 989 ShAP.
16/03/1945 Il-2mH. - Found no permanent loss, probably just damaged, probably from the formation of the 989 ShAP.
16/03/1945 Il-2mH. - Found no permanent loss, probably just damaged, probably from the formation of the 989 ShAP.
16/03/1945 Il-2mH. - Found no permanent loss, probably just damaged, probably from the formation of the 989 ShAP.
16/03/1945 Il-2mH. - IL-2m3, S/N: 18874124, 17 VA, 136 ShAD, 989 ShAP - ml.l-t Zaharov (WIA) - Iashin (WIA) crew.
18/03/1945 Jak-3 - No idea. Potential victory, but lack of info. 3 Yak losses this day.
19/03/1945 Il-2mH. - Found no permanent loss at 11:52, probably just damaged. Many IL-2 losses this day, but all with 2-3 hrs. difference!
19/03/1945 Jak-3 - Found no permanent loss, probably just damaged
19/03/1945 La-5 - La-5FN, S/N: 39211166, 17 VA, 295 IAD, 116 IAP, ml.l-t Ozhiganov (MIA)
20/03/1945 P-51 - Found no permanent loss, probably just damaged.

Gabor

Re: German overclaims in the East. Hartmann and others...
 

Folks,

Fw. Erich Pilz (6./SG 10 - Fw 190F) over Hungary in 1944. Not much, only 2, with 50% accuracy.

Date .........Reported AC ..Real victim

16.11.44.....DC-3 ……….....Douglas C-47A, S/N: 42-24140, 4 GvBAK, 5 GvAD DD, gv.k-n Petr Timofeevich Alekseenko's recce. crew at Szeged-NW. (His passenger, commander of 5 GvAD DD, gv.p-k Pavel Ivanovich Kondrat'ev (1899-1944) died of his wounds at No.5202 field hospital later the day.) Plane was delivered to the Soviet Union on August 4, 1943, not to Australia, as it is written in her card. Batch of 15 C-47As: 42-24140 - 42-24154 for $109.663 each.

22.11.44.....Yak-7 ………....Found no permanent loss, probably just damaged. (about 1.5 hrs apart there was a Yak-9T loss in the area in crash-landing. (it was cutting the trees due to engine trouble, pilot was WIA.)

Gabor

Re: German overclaims in the East. Hartmann and others...
 

hi,
sorry about the time of respond, about Duttman the huge claims unconfirmed he had seems suspect or at least curious to me, some of you have were unconfirmed but...... bad, very bad info...

1,11.44 6./JG 52 Lt Yak-9 ostlich Kecskemet E Kecskemet 1402 3500 E N.B N u/c Found no permanent loss, probably just damaged
1,11.44 6./JG 52 Lt Yak-9 nordlich Kecskemet N Kecskemet 1403 2000 E J 117 Yak-1B, S/N: 08175, 5 VA, 6 GvIAD, 73 GvIAP, gv.l-t Andrianov (POW)
1,11.44 6./JG 52 Lt Yak-9 sudsudwestlich Abony SSW Abony 1405 3500 E J 118 Found no permanent loss, probably just damaged
1,11.44 6./JG 52 Lt Yak-9 sudlich Nagykoros S Nagykoros 1406 2500 E J 119 x2 Umlaut
1,11.44 6./JG 52 Lt Il-2 ostlich Kecskemet E Kecskemet 1409 1000 E J 120
7,11.44 6./JG 52 Lt La-5 nordnordostlich Abony NNE Abony 1605 1700 E J 121 Found no permanent loss, probably just damaged
13,1.44 6./JG 52 Lt Yak-11 sudsudwestlich Tapio Szele SSW Tapio Szele 902 4000 E J 122 Found no permanent loss, probably just damaged, reported time is 1-2 hrs. wrong!
13,11.44 6./JG 52 Lt Yak-11 sudsudwestlich Tapio Szele SSW Tapio Szele 905 4000 E J 123 Found no permanent loss, probably just damaged, reported time is 1-2 hrs. wrong!
13,11.44 6./JG 52 Lt Il-2 nordlich Jaszbereny N Jaszbereny 1220 1500 E J 124 Found no permanent loss, probably just damaged, closest reported hr. is 1.5 hrs. apart!
8,3.45 5./JG 52 Lt Yak-3 sudwestlich Aba 3km SW Aba 1624 _____ E N 125 Yak-3, S/N: 310099, 17 VA, 288 IAD, 866 IAP, ml.l-t Yablochkin, KIA
8,3.45 5./JG 52 Lt Yak-3 sudlich Aba 4km S Aba 1627 _____ E N 126 Found no permanent loss, probably just another (damaged) 866 IAP - Yak-3 from the same flight.
9,3.45 5./JG 52 Lt La-5 ostlich Kaloz 12km E Kaloz 1351 _____ E N 127 Found no permanent loss, probably just damaged
9,3.45 5./JG 52 Lt Il-2 ostlich Kaloz 18km E Kaloz 1353 _____ E N 128 IL-2m3, S/N: 11610, 17 VA, 136 ShAD, 210 ShAP, ml.l-t Indyushkin - Krasilnikov crew KIA
11,3.45 5./JG 52 Lt Yak-9 sudostlich Kaloz 6km SE Kaloz 1321 _____ E N 129 Found no permanent loss, probably just damaged, reported hr. is too late!
11,3.45 5./JG 52 Lt Yak-9 Szebed SW Szebed 1323 _____ E O.Z N u/c Found no permanent loss, probably just damaged, reported hr. is too late!
11,3.45 5./JG 52 Lt Yak-9 Polgardi S.Polgardi 1326 _____ E O.Z N u/c Found no permanent loss, probably just damaged, reported hr. is too late!
14,3.45 5./JG 52 Lt Boston nordlich Aba 8km N Aba 1255 _____ E N 130 A-20G-40-DO, S/N: 43-21519, R-2600-23 engines: 43-105954 and 43-105698 at Pálinkaházpuszta, Seregélyes-SW, 17 VA, 244 BAD, 861 BAP (l-t Bahvalov - l-t Mayorov - c-a Zolotov - e-p Solianik crew, all 4 KIA. This soviet Boston has been found, recovered and identified by a nice data-plate just a few years ago. Plane exploded still in the air and remains covered the fields below. Flight of sixteen 17 VA, 861 BAP A-20 Bostons with the cover of only 2 (!) Yaks...)
16,3.45 5./JG 52 Lt Il-2 Pakozd 6km Pakozd 1355 _____ E O.Z N u/c Found no permanent loss, probably just damaged, probably from the formation of the 989 ShAP.
16,3.45 5./JG 52 Lt Il-2 Stuhlweissenberg N Stuhlweissenberg 1356 _____ E O.Z N u/c Found no permanent loss, probably just damaged, probably from the formation of the 989 ShAP.
16,3.45 5./JG 52 Lt Il-2 sudwestlich Pakozd SW Pakozd 1358 _____ E N 131 Found no permanent loss, probably just damaged, probably from the formation of the 989 ShAP.
16,3.45 5./JG 52 Lt Il-2 nordwestlich Pakozd 3km NW Pakozd 1359 _____ E N 132 Found no permanent loss, probably just damaged, probably from the formation of the 989 ShAP.
16,3.45 5./JG 52 Lt Il-2 nordostlich Pakozd 6km NE Pakozd 1401 _____ E N 133 IL-2m3, S/N: 18874124, 17 VA, 136 ShAD, 989 ShAP - ml.l-t Zaharov (WIA) - Iashin (WIA) crew.
18,3.45 5./JG 52 Lt Yak-3 Kaloz SE Kaloz 1405 _____ E O.Z N u/c Jak-3 - No idea. Potential victory, but lack of info. 3 Yak losses this day.
19,3.45 5./JG 52 Lt Il-2 nordwestlich Stuhlweissenberg NW Stuhlweissenberg 1152 _____ E N 134 Found no permanent loss at 11:52, probably just damaged. Many IL-2 losses this day, but all with 2-3 hrs. difference!
19,3.45 5./JG 52 Lt Yak-3 nordlich Stuhlweissenberg N Stuhlweissenberg 1456 _____ E N 135 Found no permanent loss, probably just damaged
19,3.45 5./JG 52 Lt La-5 sudsudwestlich Stuhlweissenberg SSW Stuhlweissenberg 1503 _____ E N 136 La-5FN, S/N: 39211166, 17 VA, 295 IAD, 116 IAP, ml.l-t Ozhiganov (MIA)
20,3.45 5./JG 52 Lt P-51 Veszprem 10km WSW Veszprem 1405 _____ W O.Z N u/c Found no permanent loss, probably just damaged


claims info from Johannes... losses from your info,
see the huge unconfirmed...

regards

Re: German overclaims in the East. Hartmann and others...
 

About other pilots i only say some little info about Thyben, general info in some cases, but gives a relative idea of ​​the claims and Russian casualties:

5,6.44 5./JG 54 Lt La-5 Ostsee 90km nordöstlich Kunda Baltic Sea 90km NE Kunda 1126 4200 E J 44 3 losses, (3 GIAP-KBF. Losses include Kapitan Aleksandr Andreevich Troshin KIA this info from Nick Hector)

10,10.44 7./JG 54 Lt Yak-9 07 653 955 1000 E J 101 Overclaim on Libau only lost two Yak-9 JG54 claimed 4. (Day's Yak losses include Major Ivan Konstantinovich Golovatyuk of 66th GvIAP KIA (believed by JG 54, Kretinga-Memel area) this info from Nick Hector)

10,10.44 7./JG 54 Lt Pe-2 raum 15km südöstlich Libau 15km SE Libau 1015 1200 E J 102 Overclaiming? only 7 Pe-2 lost, JG54 claimed 19!?

30,10.44 7./JG 54 Lt Pe-2 raum 20km südöstlich Libau 20km SE Libau 1158 3800 E J 112 Claimed 15 Pe-2 vs 10 no return
30,10.44 7./JG 54 Lt Pe-2 raum 20km südlich Libau 20km S Libau 1200 1500 E J 113 Claimed 15 Pe-2 vs 10 no return

23,11.44 7./JG 54 Lt Il-2 Rigaischer Meerbusen nordöstlich Windau Gulf of Riga NE Windau 820 10 E J 116 Ltn. Thaler and Thyben claims are correct: 2 Il-2 (35.ShAP 9.ShAD Baltic Fleet Air Forces) shot down

14,12.44 7./JG 54 Lt Il-2 07 632 1216 _____ E N 117 (47th and 8th Guards Assault Regiment lost 13 Il-2 and 11 crew members), including Col. Nelson Stepanyan at 1412 hrs, 8-10km N of Libau (2 x Hero of the Soviet Union). Seven other crews KIA. 10 other IL-2s damaged, 1 Yak-9 and two A-20s lost to flak
14,12.44 7./JG 54 Lt Il-2 07 661 1224 _____ E N 118 (47th and 8th Guards Assault Regiment lost 13 Il-2 and 11 crew members), including Col. Nelson Stepanyan at 1412 hrs, 8-10km N of Libau (2 x Hero of the Soviet Union). Seven other crews KIA. 10 other IL-2s damaged, 1 Yak-9 and two A-20s lost to flak

some bad but also some good....interesting posting

kind regards