Info on 103 Fairey Battle losses on the continent during mid-May, 1940
 

Hello,

As stated in a previous post, our working group is revising our info on 103 SQ Battle losses during 1939-40 for the EOE Project. We've now matched photos to losses for ten of the unit Battle losses during the mid-May, 1940 period, and are solid on specific plane crash locations as well. However, we are seeking photos and any further information for the following 103 SQ incidents during that period.

May 10, 1940: "2 Battles. Reported slightly damaged in bombing by Do17s of II./KG2 4.45 a.m. No crew casualties. Aircraft repairable." Do any photos exist from this incident, or SN and/or a/c letter information for these two planes?

May 10, 1940: Battle K9372 badly crashed in Luxembourg. We need confirmation, with source cited, of a/c letter for this badly wrecked plane. This cannot be confirmed from wreckage photos, so will probably have to come from some contemporary unit record or logbook. Need first names of crewmen.

May 10, 1940: Battle K9270, crashed in Luxembourg with crew killed. We think we have a photo of this crash, but need other views of it to confirm our info. Also need to confirm a source that has reported this as PMoO. Need first names of crewmen.

May 10, 1940: Battle K9264, badly crashed in Luxembourg. We need confirmation, with source cited, for reported a/c code of PMoL, and the same info on first names.

May 10, 1940: "Battle K9408: Returned to base (Bétheniville, France) badly damaged with wings, fuselage, and port fuel tank riddled by ground fire during low-level bombing attack on enemy column east of Dippach 3.00 p.m. Flight Lieutenant J. A. Ingram and crew unhurt. Aircraft damaged but repairable." Do not have photos of this a/c after damage; need a/c code and crew info as above.

May 12, 1940: "Battle L5512. Badly damaged by flak during attack on enemy columns between Bouillon and Sedan 5.15 p.m. Crashed attempting forced-landing at ‘Fond-Wazelle’, near Haraucourt, France, during return flight. Flying Officer G. B. (Barry?) Morgan-Dean and AC1 H. B. Sewell killed. Aircraft a write-off." Need a/c code and crew info as above.

May 12, 1940: "Battle P2193. Shot down by flak during attack on enemy columns between Bouillon and Sedan 5.15 p.m. Crashed and burned out at Curfoz, north of Bouillon. Pilot Officer E. E. Morton and AC1 A. S. Ross killed. Aircraft PM*C or G a write-off." One of the most photographed wrecks of a Battle down in France, but can't clearly determine a/c letter from photos. Are there any contemporary records that can confirm this either way? Need info on crew first names.

May 14, 1940: "Battle L5516. Suffered a direct hit from intense flak during attack on bridge north-west of Remilly-Aillicourt and exploded over ‘Le Chemin du Liry’ 3.40 p.m. Pilot Officer V. A. Cunningham and AC1 L. J. Johnson killed. Aircraft PM*E or F a write-off." One photo we have shows the a/c letter and SN, but we can't determine whether this is an "E" or "F." Are there any other photos or contemporary records that would answer this question? Need crew names as above.

May 16, 1940: "Battle L5234. Crashed on take-off on evacuation of airfield (Bétheniville) 7.00 a.m. No crew casualties. Aircraft PM*B abandoned.
Another unserviceable aircraft K9404 was also abandoned on withdrawal of the squadron to Rhèges."

We have good photos of the first a/c, but no photos or a/c letter for K9404. Also, can any source provide the crew that was flying L5234 when it crashed on T.O.?

Will deal with other losses to 103 SQ during the WC in a subsequent posting.

Thanx in advance for any help here.

Re: Info on 103 Fairey Battle losses on the continent during mid-May, 1940
 

W R Chorleys Bomber Command Losses Vol 1 (1939-40) will give you the surnames and initials of the crews and if you have a look at the Commonwealth War Graves Commission website you should be able to pick up the first names for all of the casualties, you need to know the surnames and initials:
http://www.cwgc.org/debt_of_honour.asp?menuid=14

Here's what it had for a couple of the crews:

K9270:
Poole, Christopher John Stafford
Hutchinson Olaf Arthur

K9264
DRABBLE, KENNETH JOHN
SMITH, THOMAS DAW
LAMBLE, PHILLIP JAMES

Dave

Re: Info on 103 Fairey Battle losses on the continent during mid-May, 1940
 

Dave,

We've used Chorley in our compilation of our comprehensive British loss list, among many other sources. We also know about the CWGC website, but just haven't yet had the time to research all the first names for fatalities listed there. It's the names of people not killed that are going to be the biggest challenge for adding all the first names.

Thanks for the comments and looking these up.

Regards,

Re: Info on 103 Fairey Battle losses on the continent during mid-May, 1940
 

Re: Info on 103 Fairey Battle losses on the continent during mid-May, 1940
 

103 Sqdn Battles,

Re: Info on 103 Fairey Battle losses on the continent during mid-May, 1940
 

1

Re: Info on 103 Fairey Battle losses on the continent during mid-May, 1940
 

2

Re: Info on 103 Fairey Battle losses on the continent during mid-May, 1940
 

3

Re: Info on 103 Fairey Battle losses on the continent during mid-May, 1940
 

Dave, Martin and Revi16,

Thanks for all the time and effort you put in on your answers. At the EOE Working Group, we're still debating whether it is worth it to try and locate first names and crew positions for all British crewmen involved in a/c loss & damage incidents from 01.09.39 through 31.12.40. Our parallel Luftwaffe DB for the period, which includes many thousands of entries, does include all known first names and crew positions. I'd guess that more than 95% of these now have that information recorded. So I'm inclined to try and do the same for the comprehensive British DB we're working on. But Peter Cornwell feels that the British records just don't well lend themselves to doing this on a comprehensive basis. If there are readers of this board who are willing to help make this happen, we'll shoot for it, but it will take a lot of digging by a lot of volunteers to make this work. Remember, we're trying to do ALL British losses, RAF FC, BC, Coastal Command and RN. Training losses are not included. Obviously full names are known for all FC participants in the BoB, but there were at least hundreds more assigned to BC, CC and RN that would have to be researched very tediously. As the researchers who most care about this, should we do this or not? Can we get enough help to make this happen? I'm willing to post the questions, if you're willing to help us do this.

A special note for Revi16, I'm well familiar with all of these a/c, except for possibly the third one in the last post. I can't read the code clearly on this a/c and the background doesn't look familiar. It may have a PH SQ code (12 SQ) rather than PM (103 SQ). Can anyone help confirm the correct code and identity for this photo, perhaps with other views showing the code more clearly? Although I haven't tried to comprehensively put a number on them, I think that we've assembled a collection of contemporary photos of Battle FL or crashes of at least 50%, maybe considerably more, of all those lost during the WC. For example, of the dozen lost in Luxembourg during the first two days of the WC, it appears that we have photos of at least 10 of them at the crash site, including several that were little more than wreckage.

Thanks to all for the continuing help and support.

Regards,

Re: Info on 103 Fairey Battle losses on the continent during mid-May, 1940
 

Looks like a 12 Sqn PH Code to me..

Re: Info on 103 Fairey Battle losses on the continent during mid-May, 1940
 

Agreed. And I believe the last strip of photos has been attributed to a No.226 Squadron loss on 10 May 1940 near Bettendorf (K9183) ? Nice assemblage - thanks for sharing.

Re: Info on 103 Fairey Battle losses on the continent during mid-May, 1940
 

Two pics dated (27) March 1940 here :

http://www.iwmcollections.org.uk/qryPhotoImg.php

Keyword(s) : K9408


PMoN according to the captions, but ...

Re: Info on 103 Fairey Battle losses on the continent during mid-May, 1940
 

udf__00,

Thanks for sending this info and the IWM photo references. Peter Cornwell is checking this out and we may have to change the identity for K9408 for the FL photos of PMoN. In the meantime, does anyone have any photos of PMoN that clearly show the SN on the force-landed a/c? Unfortunately mine aren't clear enough to be certain. Since plane codes can be changed, we need to be careful before we change the ID of this one in our DB.

This is precisely why I'm putting this info on TOCH, to get the bugs out before this later goes into print. By moving this one, this may force a re-arrangement of the chairs for ascribing dates and codes so some other FL Battles during the WC.

Regards,

Re: Info on 103 Fairey Battle losses on the continent during mid-May, 1940
 

Re: Info on 103 Fairey Battle losses on the continent during mid-May, 1940
 

Martin, as usual, provides some cautionary and most welcome clarity. IF the IWM photos do indeed show K9408 with codes PM*N taken in March 1940 then it is most unlikely that it still carried the same codes on 10 May 1940 when it was damaged. It may well have got back to Mourmelon (No.88 Squadron's base) on that occasion only to be transported by them overland to Les Grandes Chappelles some days later from where it was eventually recovered for repair but this part of its history is somewhat speculative. Four days later L5446 PM*N was brought down (evidenced by photographs) which is too soon for another aircraft(replacement or no) to have been so coded. And yes, my photo caption on p279 of BoFrT&N did get it wrong.

Re: Info on 103 Fairey Battle losses on the continent during mid-May, 1940
 

Hi,

browsing in e-bay i found this photo :

http://cgi.ebay.de/Foto-engl-Flugzeu...item3f08efcf3d

Its some maschine from this thread ?

Faenor

Re: Info on 103 Fairey Battle losses on the continent during mid-May, 1940
 

14 May 1940: Battle K9374. Hit by intense flak during attack on bridge at Mouzon and believed belly-landed near Machault 3.40 p.m. Flying Officer T. B. Fitzgerald slightly wounded, Corporal Madkins unhurt. Aircraft PM*J a write-off.
Tom Fitzgerald was later awarded the DFC for this action.

Re: Info on 103 Fairey Battle losses on the continent during mid-May, 1940
 

The photo posted by Revi 16, of the !2 sdn Battle is PH-A. I dont know what its serail number is. I have a photo of the same Battle from a slightly different angle.

Dave

Re: Info on 103 Fairey Battle losses on the continent during mid-May, 1940
 

I think there are a lot of problems with published attributions of Fairey Battle losses in France. The records of the time are not always accurate, sometimes conflict, and sometimes information emerges post publication.

I am working on a list that can be put on the web, although there is much common ground with a lot of attributions I have some significant differences. When I am comfortable with the list I will post it and doubtless it may prompt more responses and clarifications.

In the meantime a few quick comments on this thread.

K9408 was transferred from 103 to 88 Sqn and was badly damaged with that squadron - class II for collection 21 May
Fitzgerald crash was P2191, PM*K
It is worth also noting that a number of Battles were sent to France that are not recorded L5446 (PM*N) was such a plane.

Kind regards

Iain

Re: Info on 103 Fairey Battle losses on the continent during mid-May, 1940
 

Iain,

You are spot on with your comments and I welcome the day when your own research finds a wider audience.

Picking up on a specific point, can you please confirm your source(s) for allocating P2191 PM*K as FITZGERALD's aircraft on 14 May 1940 ? As you must know, I have him flying K9374 PM*J on that sortie but am always happy when proved to be wrong. Many thanks.

Re: Info on 103 Fairey Battle losses on the continent during mid-May, 1940
 

Peter

No problem, this topic was actually discussed back in 2009 in this Forum on the thread Fairey Battle P21.., 103 Squadron RAF.My comments below.

(Incidentally from memory I think Chorley has the plane IDs and pilots below interchangable. Presumably only the loss date is on the plane records. )

Kind regards

Iain

K9374 is PM-J the Sgt Perry a/c crash landed near Machault very near Betheniville. There are a lot of photos of this plane including Gillet’s Betheniville book. Have also seen photos with attribution bei Machault (zwischen Sedan und Reims)


Perry DFM rec:
PERRY, Charles David (561615) Sergeant (Pilot)
D.F.M. (immediate) London Gazette 14 June 1940
Recommended 18 May 1940

This N.C.O. was seriously wounded by two bullets in the thigh and stomach during a low flying attack against the enemy on 14.5.40. Sgt Perry piloted his aircraft to the vicinity of his base until finding himself fainting he force landed.The action of this N.C.O.showed great courage and stamina.
Sadly he died in England a month later of bullet wounds to the stomach.

P2191 is PM-K the Fitzgerald crash landing. Location is not known to me only that it was in a forward area, possibly in a French Sector.
I have copy of his logbook which confirms P2191, the crash date. And a phoney war photo which ties P2191 to PM-K and there have been recent photos of the crashed PM-K showing the Srl No P2191.

FITZGERALD, Thomas Bernard (40783) Flying Officer (Pilot)
D.F.C. (immediate) London Gazette 14 June1940
Recommendation:

In May, 1940, Flying Officer Fitzgerald carried out a successful and daring low flying attack against the enemy at Sedan. During a second raid a few days later, he was wounded but succeeded in effecting a forced landing and saving the lives of his crew

Fitzgerald was wounded in the arm and evacuated to England. The DFC rec is wrong in refering to lives of his crew - he was flying with only one crew.
.

Re: Info on 103 Fairey Battle losses on the continent during mid-May, 1940
 

Iain,

Many thanks. Having reviewed previous posts on the topic I'm grateful for your patience in making this point for the second or third time of asking! Clearly, the FITZGERALD Log Book is the crucial evidence here and I have amended my records accordingly. A location for his landing would be most useful but that detail seems to elude us at present. Thanks again.

Re: Info on 103 Fairey Battle losses on the continent during mid-May, 1940
 

Some 103 Sqn NCO and Airmen full names and serial numbers

Sergeant William Ralph Critch #564578 (not W E Critch) as sometimes quoted
Sergeant John Ernest Summers #534586
Sergeant Joseph Anthony McCudden #560344
Sergeant Lennart Fredrick Waern #580470
Sergeant Derrick Norrington #580441 Later Missing in Action
Leading Aircraftsman George Frederick Lewis #53336o

Re: Info on 103 Fairey Battle losses on the continent during mid-May, 1940
 

Iain and Paul,

Thanks for your added inputs to this complicated problem. Peter C. has now revised his entries, as noted above. We really do need a crash-landing location for Battle P2191, PM-K (Fitzgerald). For the present, we've changed this to "unknown France" in our DB, so if anyone has any insight into this, your comments/info would be greatly appreciated.

We have decided to go forward with full names and crew positions for the British loss/damages/casualties DB, thanks for an offer from Martin Gleeson to take that ask on for the EOE Working Group. Thanks Martin! He will be using this board for questions and problems relating to that subject for the EOE Project, leaving Peter Cornwell to focus on getting the most accurate overall loss entries as possible.

Regards,

Re: Info on 103 Fairey Battle losses on the continent during mid-May, 1940
 

On the broader subject of Battle identification would be grateful if anybody can help with a few IDs:

QT*L and QT*I - many photos seen, but never with visible serial no

QT*H - again many photos of this one, bombed in standing, it is probably L5440 at Berry-au-Bac but not confirmed

GB*O - photographed on train with Hurricane P2676 and battle MQ*V srl
L5461. GB*O believed to start with a 'K' serial no.

thanks

Iain

Re: Info on 103 Fairey Battle losses on the continent during mid-May, 1940
 

Iain,

Have just received the updated DB entires for 142 SQ from Peter Cornwell and ran them all through the photo DB. I note that he does not have SN for QToL or QToH, although he does suggest that the latter was probably written off at Berry-au-Buc, but does not confirm this.

For QToI, he has:

May 19, 1940: Battle K7696. Brought down by ground fire during attack on targets west of Laon and believed belly-landed near Marle (France at) 10.45 a.m. Pilot Officer H. H. Taylor, Sergeant S. Lang, and LAC H. Long all captured. Aircraft QT*I a write-off.

I note that one photo of QToI in the EOE Photo DB had this note in German on the back: "Shot down near Marle 1940.”

I'm going to list our questions concerning 142 SQ photos that we can't identify in a separate posting.

Regarding the photos of GBoO, I apparently have the same photos on the freight car as you do in the DB, but with no SN ID.

So, it appears that, except for QToI, we're on the same page as you are, seeking the same info. Given the good condition of these planes, we'll probably eventually get readable SN on photos for them.

Regards,

Re: Info on 103 Fairey Battle losses on the continent during mid-May, 1940
 

yes agree for QT-I that is the most likely but never got the evidence, any idea what supports that attribution?
for QT-L I have been given crash site of Saint-Loup-Terrier, not got anything else.

thanks

Iain

Re: Info on 103 Fairey Battle losses on the continent during mid-May, 1940
 

Hello Iain,

I will try to justify the QT*I attribution but admit that it is pure deduction. Among the many photos of QT*I two have emerged with notes on the reverse, one stating 'bei Reims' and another 'Montescourt-Lizerolles-Marle 6.40'. Given what we already know of the various circumstances, locations, and photos we have on their losses in the period, this unattributed No.142 Sqdn loss somewhere around Marle, 30 miles NNE of Reims, strongly suggests it was that flown by the TAYLOR crew on 19 May 1940 during a section attack west of Laon. In short, it comes down to the location from the photo captions plus PoE. Hardly evidential I know but hopefully you follow my reasoning.

Re: Info on 103 Fairey Battle losses on the continent during mid-May, 1940
 

re: For QToI, he has:

May 19, 1940: Battle K7696. Brought down by ground fire during attack on targets west of Laon and believed belly-landed near Marle (France at) 10.45 a.m. Pilot Officer H. H. Taylor, Sergeant S. Lang, and LAC H. Long all captured. Aircraft QT*I a write-off.

I note that one photo of QToI in the EOE Photo DB had this note in German on the back: "Shot down near Marle 1940.”


Just a point......

If you google Battle K7696 in Google Books, it highlights an article in an Old Air Pictorial back in 1997

"Air pictorial: journal of the Air League, Volume 59"

If my memory serves me right.... It had a regular 'problem picture' page.. One issue (page 40) says the following..

Unfortualtely NO picture visible. however the text can be extacted

Which aircraft of No 142 Sqn was allotted the individual letter 'D' is not known . A search of all the Battles extant at this period shows one that could apply. The 'last three' on the photograph could be '696' and apply to K7696. This Battle of No 142 Sqn was engaged with two others in attacking an enemy troop column at Conde-sur-Aisne, just east of Soissons on May 19, and failed to return. The crew, PO HH Taylor, Sgt S Lang and LAC H Long were all later reported as prisoners-of-war. The aircraft in the photograph shows that the crew should have survived the crash and it is obviously in German hands

BTW can't supply full details but crew


P/O Howard Hamilton TAYLOR #36153

Sgt S Lang #561779 MiD Waziristan, North West Frontier of India, 25th November, 1936, to 16th January, 1937

LAC H Long #615961


Now if anyone has a copy of Air Pictorial for 1997 and can dig out the picture??

Re: Info on 103 Fairey Battle losses on the continent during mid-May, 1940
 

Iain,

I think that GB-O on the train is GB-Q (Q for Queen), based on several E-Bay photos I have seen. Serial on those images is not clear but there is a 'K'. Therefore my money is on K9338, possibly K9188, based on the losses and fates suffered by 105 Sqn. from May 10th - 14th.

Dave (G-ASEA),

I think that 12 Sqn. photo is PH-A also, likewise I have seen an E-Bay photo from the other side. It appears to match L5538 PH-A lost on 19 May 1940, as per 'TBoF,T&N'.

Regards,

Martin.

Re: Info on 103 Fairey Battle losses on the continent during mid-May, 1940
 

Paul,

Thanks for your continuing input on this. In regards to the SN of QToI, I have a photo that seems to show the numbers displayed on the starboard rudder as ending in "696." If you'll send me a PM with your personal email address, I'll send you a scan. This doesn't confirm the crash location, but it does appear to confirm the SN with this plane code.

Regards,

Re: Info on 103 Fairey Battle losses on the continent during mid-May, 1940
 

Larry

PM Sent.. BTW have extracted full text but NOT picture


Air pictorial: journal of the Air League, Volume 59

Page 40 ?? 1997 Air Pictorial

Note: Probably January of February 1997 Issue

Battle QT-D of No 142 Sqn

<Picture>

The serial Right: The Fairey Battle of No 142 Sqn mentioned by Mr Stevens

Q: I enclose a photograph of Fairey Battle QT- D of No 142 Sqn, which force landed near Boulogne at the end of May 1940. Serving as part of the Advanced Air Striking Force in France between September 1939 and June 1940, the squadron later flew Wellingtons. number is not very clear, but the last three numbers could be 692. Could you help to identify this and provide any information on its force landing, crew, etc.
J Stevens Newmarket, Suffolk

A: One of the difficulties in tracing losses of Battles in France in May and June 1940 is the loss of unit records during the evacuation of their advanced airfields. Although some survived, it is difficult to reconcile much of the information compiled after the units had returned to the UK. While some details of the operation carried out have been reconstructed by the Recording Officers, most do not show the serials of the aircraft involved. Similarly, the code letters allotted locally to aircraft are often not recorded even on the records that survived. Which aircraft of No 142 Sqn was allotted the individual letter 'D' is not known . A search of all the Battles extant at this period shows one that could apply. The 'last three' on the photograph could be '696' and apply to K7696. This Battle of No 142 Sqn was engaged with two others in attacking an enemy troop column at Conde-sur-Aisne, just east of Soissons on May 19, and failed to return. The crew, P/O H H Taylor, Sgt S Lang and LAC H Long were all later reported as prisoners-of-war. The aircraft in the photograph shows that the crew should have survived the crash and it is obviously in German hands. Where Boulogne comes into the picture is obscure as at this date
it was still in Allied hands and since all three crew were captured, if this was the aircraft involved then it could not have been crash-landed near Boulogne-sur-Mer, which is what we normally think of as simply Boulogne.
However, there is a Boulogne la Grasse about 50 km NNW of Soissons and this might be the location.

J Halley Air-Britain Information Services


Note: Photo could not have shown K7'692' as could be suggested by Mr Stevens, as this belly landed at Aston Down on 3rd December 1939 while with 12 Group Pool and became Instruction Airframe with Maintenance Serial 1782M

Re: Info on 103 Fairey Battle losses on the continent during mid-May, 1940
 

Paul,

You should now have the photos of QToI, with the probable SN of K7696. To make sure that we don't have this fouled up, however, we need to see the photo of QToD, showing a partial SN. Can anyone with a copy of "Air pictorial: journal of the Air League, Volume 59, P.40??" send me or post a scan of the photo included in that article? Or does anyone have a photo showing the SN of the QToD lost during the WC? I've got several in the EOE DB, but none show a readable SN.

Regards,

Re: Info on 103 Fairey Battle losses on the continent during mid-May, 1940
 

Larry,

There was an article by Simon Gifford titled 'LOST BATTLES' in issue 109 of the late-lamented 'AIR ENTHUSIAST'. On page 25 there is a photo of this first 'QT-D' abandoned at Reims with the caption "Battle K9367 of 142 Squadron lies disabled at Reims".
Unfortunately the reproduction does not allow the serial number to be read. All photos in the article are credited to Simon, so if he has the original he might be able to confirm this. Perhaps someone knows him ?

Martin.

Re: Info on 103 Fairey Battle losses on the continent during mid-May, 1940
 

Can confirm the picture was in Air Pictorial January 1997 issue.. But the person who confirmed this did not have the issue (he had the following issue which started at page > 40)

One just ended on ebay - No bids...

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/AIR-PICTORIAL-...item483fe2a96d

Re: Info on 103 Fairey Battle losses on the continent during mid-May, 1940
 

Paul,

Too bad we missed the auction for the issue. I hope someone who watches this board can provide a scan of the needed photo.

Regards,

Re: Info on 103 Fairey Battle losses on the continent during mid-May, 1940
 

It is great to see so much care being taken over the plane identities.
I am very cautous on a lot of the 142 Sqn plane detail as there was an operations tent fire on 2 June. I believe that a lot of the squadrons records were lost in that fire - and a lot of log books were also destroyed.

Hence when Rudd wrote the ORB in early October it is not clear he had much detailed info. to go on.

Certainly the Hobler crash serial no was wrong (see elsewhere this forum).

Incidently one of the other 142 crashes on the day of the Taylor crash was L5226 and it is definitely QT-Q (photo confirms) and many other photos of QT-Q have the Dagny-Lambercy location.

Kind regards

Iain

Re: Info on 103 Fairey Battle losses on the continent during mid-May, 1940
 

Iain,

As you say, there are many problems due to the poor quality of the original records regarding Battle losses on the continent during 1940. However, I'm convinced that by networking with all of those knowledgable about this subject, we'll get all or most of the photos matched with actual crash incidents, and the SN and codes applied to the right a/c. We have about 100 photos of 142 SQ Battles in our EOE DB from the WC Blitzkrieg, and we're trying hard to get them all sorted out. We do carry the QToQ photos (3 of them) with the SN L5226 and the Dagny-Lambercy crash location in our DB.

I encourage anyone who can be helpful in identifying the Battles listed at the beginning of this post to add their expertise to this problem. At the EOE Working Group, we're in the process of systematically working our way through the Battle losses SQ by SQ. Then we'll do the same for the Blenheims, and other a/c.

Regards,