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-   -   List of DB 605A engine construction numbers? (http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/showthread.php?t=53695)

Dénes Bernád 13th April 2019 14:46

List of DB 605A engine construction numbers?
 
Is there any list of DB 605A engine construction numbers available?
Particularly, I am interested to learn where were the ones in the 00400xxx series manufactured?
Thanks,

Tomislav Haramincic 13th April 2019 15:10

Re: List of DB 605A engine construction numbers?
 
Hello Dénes,

According to the data I managed to collect the DB605 in the 004-xxxxx range were A-1 and AM models produced by the Donau-Flugzeugbau, Csepel-Budapest. Producer code was "kwn".

Dénes Bernád 13th April 2019 15:21

Re: List of DB 605A engine construction numbers?
 
Thank you, Tomislav! Confirms what I suspected: those were Hungarian-made engines.

S Sheflin 13th April 2019 16:48

Re: List of DB 605A engine construction numbers?
 
Hello Tomislav,
First, I concur regarding the 004 xxxxx Donau-Flugzeugbau connection.
Second, are you aware who produced DB 605 engines within the 112 xxxxxx series?
Thank you in advance,
Steve Sheflin

Tomislav Haramincic 13th April 2019 18:58

Re: List of DB 605A engine construction numbers?
 
Hello Steve,

I have no solid proof for the 112-xxxxx series, but if we follow the logic of markings from other known producers - for example the Daimler-Benz Motoren GmbH, Genshagen Kreis Teltow (hsq), they produced the DB605 with serials 7xxxx (A-1), 007-xxxxx (A-1, B-1, AM, ASM, ASO & ASMO) and 117-xxxxx (D,DB, DM & DMO).
That should indicate that the 112-xxxxx were produced by the same producer as the 002-xxxxx serials, which was the Niedersächsische Motorenwerke GmbH (NMW) "NiMo", Braunschweig-Querum (hss).

schwarze-man 13th April 2019 19:01

Re: List of DB 605A engine construction numbers?
 
This is very interesting to me! The post WW2 British Intelligence Sub-Committee (BIOS) might include this production in its report from the Unterturkheim DB records in 1945. The BIOS report shows DB605 total production as 41,176 until the end of 1944. It lists the total DB605 production by Manfred Weiss AG Budapest as 1,210 engines, up to the end of 1944. Does this tie-in with your information? Thanks

SM

S Sheflin 13th April 2019 21:23

Re: List of DB 605A engine construction numbers?
 
Hello again Tomislav,
I think you are on to something there.
Now that you point out the pattern, it seems patently obvious.
Thank you for your insightful answer.
Respectfully,
Steve Sheflin

schwarze-man 13th April 2019 22:12

Re: List of DB 605A engine construction numbers?
 
I agree Steve! Thank you Tomislav! :) For your information, I have in the last 30 years worked on the following DB600 series engines for flying/prospective restorations: DB601Aa, DB601E, DB605A, DB605B, DB605D, DB605DM and DB605DB.

SM

S Sheflin 13th April 2019 23:23

Re: List of DB 605A engine construction numbers?
 
Hey SM,
I am at 713 DB 605’s documented so far and adding numbers daily. How does that stack up with your numbers?
Respectfully,
Steve

schwarze-man 13th April 2019 23:39

Re: List of DB 605A engine construction numbers?
 
Hi Steve, I do not have a database of engine numbers, I am involved with engine operation, rebuild and original data. However, my info does cover some early DB605A engine numbers. Obviously, the later engines have different serial numbers that include coded manufacturer info. I have worked on engines that have strange numbers like 0110xxxxxxx? and one I remember, 007xxxxxxx? I referred to as the James Bond engine.:) Obviously, the codes on late engines can reveal some info about production location and type when the Data plate is missing. I am interested in any of this info. Cheers

SM

Dénes Bernád 14th April 2019 08:56

Re: List of DB 605A engine construction numbers?
 
To all of you, DB 605 'aficionados', here is a page from my upcoming book, 'Bulgarian Fighter Colours', vol. 2, of the engine of a Bulgarian Bf 109G-6, excavated recently (photos by N. Katsarov).

schwarze-man 14th April 2019 10:13

Re: List of DB 605A engine construction numbers?
 
Hi Denes! Thank you for that. Yes, DB605A or AS, you can, I think, see the disconnected barrel of the Motor cannon sticking out of the rear. Cheers

SM

Matti Salonen 14th April 2019 12:16

Re: List of DB 605A engine construction numbers?
 
1 Attachment(s)
Enclosed a list of DB engine numbers, which I have found.

Matti

schwarze-man 14th April 2019 12:55

Re: List of DB 605A engine construction numbers?
 
That is a great list Matti! Very generous of you to post it! :)
I will have to study these latest imputs later. In the meantime, some of the late numbers remind me of what I called the "Digital" DB605, it had a number like, 011100101. Never mind! Thanks,

SM

Dénes Bernád 14th April 2019 13:03

Re: List of DB 605A engine construction numbers?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by schwarze-man (Post 267549)
That is a great list Matti! Very generous of you to post it! :)

My thoughts, exactly! Very generous of you, Matti. Many thanks!

S Sheflin 14th April 2019 17:18

Re: List of DB 605A engine construction numbers?
 
Wow...thanks Matti,
It's just like Christmas.
Thank you again,
Respectfully,
Steve Sheflin

S Sheflin 14th April 2019 17:22

Re: List of DB 605A engine construction numbers?
 
And for you Dénes,
Thank you too for the new-to-me DB605 photo.
Respectfully,
Steve Sheflin

Tomislav Haramincic 14th April 2019 21:04

Re: List of DB 605A engine construction numbers?
 
Thank you Matti for sharing! This data is gold for me :)
Most of my data was taken from Crashed enemy aircraft reports and similar documents which contain the DB605 serial number and producer code of the engine. When the compiled data started to grow I could cross reference the information and noticed a pattern in the first digits of the engine's serial number which correlate to the engine producer and later also to the engine subtype. This pattern can also be found within the DB601 serial numbers.

@Dénes, the recovered DB605 from the photo above is an A-1 produced by Henschel-Flugmotorenbau GmbH, Kassel (code hsr). The WNr. fits nicely between two other engines that were delivered from Bulgaria to Yugoslavia postwar.

@Schwarze-man, I don't have any total numbers on the Hungarian DB605 production, but I can tell you that a have only a few serial numbers from their production recorded, so I guess your numbers could be correct.

Matti Salonen 15th April 2019 07:23

Re: List of DB 605A engine construction numbers?
 
1 Attachment(s)
DB engines in Bf 110 and Me 410.

Matti

Tony Kambic 15th April 2019 14:48

Re: List of DB 605A engine construction numbers?
 
Matti,

Any chance you have a DB603 listing?

Thanks, Tony

Matti Salonen 15th April 2019 17:53

Re: List of DB 605A engine construction numbers?
 
Tony,

Unfortunately not. My info is arranged according to aircraft types and versions and not according to engine models.

Matti

S Sheflin 15th April 2019 18:28

Re: List of DB 605A engine construction numbers?
 
Hello Matti and Tony,
First, thanks yet again Matti for the additional DB-engine compendium.
To Tony, the Me410 Motornummern listed in Matti’s newest list are DB603s.
Respectfully,
Steve Sheflin

Matti Salonen 15th April 2019 18:58

Re: List of DB 605A engine construction numbers?
 
1 Attachment(s)
If anyone is still interested in DB numbers, enclosed 605 A engines, which were used in Finland.

Please note that the engine numbers may be incomplete (at least the preceding zeros omitted). This list is compiled using war-time documents and aircraft cards and the clerks have not always understood meaning of the complete serial number.

Matti

Tony Kambic 16th April 2019 21:43

Re: List of DB 605A engine construction numbers?
 
Matti and Steve,

These can be added to the DB603 listing:

He219 A-2 WkNr 290202
DB603 A2 01602821 DB603 AA 01602842

Me410 A-2/U1 WkNr 10018 F6+WK
DB603 A2 501016 DB603 A2 500258

Tony

Dénes Bernád 16th April 2019 21:54

Re: List of DB 605A engine construction numbers?
 
Surprisingly, the Finns have received at least two DB 605A engines, manufactured in Hungary.

KrisJG3 16th April 2019 22:03

Re: List of DB 605A engine construction numbers?
 
But missing information about DB engines mounted in Bf109 G10 version ?


BR
Kris

schwarze-man 17th April 2019 10:04

Re: List of DB 605A engine construction numbers?
 
Excellent posts Matti! Thankyou.:)

I would be grateful if you or anyone can comment here on my simple observations about the production numbering of the DB600 series engines.
It seems that engines were allocated to manufacture in batch numbers. Until some point around mid-1943, all DB601/605 seem to be 5 figure numbers. Also, these seem to have quite a spread at similar times so, in the summer of 1940, you can see Bf109E with engine numbers like 10xxx upto 60xxx. You can follow this pattern with increasing engine numbering but, with wide variation of the actual number blocks. I suggest this represents number block allocation in the first two numbers, so that at the same time a certain plant might be building the DB605A block 76xxx and, another plant building block 25xxx. This pattern continues through until the series gets up to the 90xxx numbers around mid 1943. There seems to then be some six-number engines but, more definitively, then come the eight-number engines that seem to maybe have a constructor code before the batch/serial number eg. the 001xxxxx or 007xxxxx type of numbers. These engines look to be the mid 1943 onwards DB605A and AS series.
It looks like the DB605D production has 9-number serials, almost all in the "batch" 01110xxxx, with the highest last4 numbered 011102699. There are some anomalies in these 109K-4 listings, with 1170xxxx 8-number listings that probably have left off the first 0, but that looks to me like another 605D "batch"/manufacturer.
Obviously, there are contradictions but, these general patterns are there, I think!? Cheers

SM

Dénes Bernád 17th April 2019 10:07

Re: List of DB 605A engine construction numbers?
 
Was this topic of German engine numbers discussed, in detail, in any publication (book, magazine)?

schwarze-man 17th April 2019 10:19

Re: List of DB 605A engine construction numbers?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Tomislav Haramincic (Post 267518)
Hello Steve,

I have no solid proof for the 112-xxxxx series, but if we follow the logic of markings from other known producers - for example the Daimler-Benz Motoren GmbH, Genshagen Kreis Teltow (hsq), they produced the DB605 with serials 7xxxx (A-1), 007-xxxxx (A-1, B-1, AM, ASM, ASO & ASMO) and 117-xxxxx (D,DB, DM & DMO).
That should indicate that the 112-xxxxx were produced by the same producer as the 002-xxxxx serials, which was the Niedersächsische Motorenwerke GmbH (NMW) "NiMo", Braunschweig-Querum (hss).


Thank you Tomislav! :)
I have quoted this post here for extra appreciation! Cheers

SM

schwarze-man 17th April 2019 10:21

Re: List of DB 605A engine construction numbers?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Dénes Bernád (Post 267712)
Was this topic of German engine numbers discussed, in detail, in any publication (book, magazine)?


Hi Dénes! I am not aware of this detail before, anywhere.:) Cheers

SM

kirche 17th April 2019 14:05

Re: List of DB 605A engine construction numbers?
 
Matti, good afternoon.
amazing data!
As an addition to your database:
29.04.1943 - Bf-109G-2 14729 - DB-605A 36680 (digged up 2016)
trapetz 75232

Matti Salonen 17th April 2019 15:13

Re: List of DB 605A engine construction numbers?
 
Thanks Kirche.

Matti

Frans A 17th April 2019 15:29

Re: List of DB 605A engine construction numbers?
 
Matti Salonen.
Fantastic lists. One question. Are the Bf109's of your list all a 100% loss?
Frans A

Matti Salonen 17th April 2019 16:08

Re: List of DB 605A engine construction numbers?
 
No, they are not. Most of the dates are when the aircraft was received from Germany, some of repair or overhaul and some of the 100 % loss or minor crash.

If you are interested in operation of Bf 109 G-2, G-6 and G-8 aircraft in Finland, I recommend the following book:

"MERSU, Messerschmitt Bf 109 G Suomen ilmavoimissa" by Kari Stenman and published by Koala-kustannus. ISBN 978-952-229-188-2. 400 pages, 485 photos and 56 drawings.

See: http://www.koalakustannus.fi/kirjat/...php?id_prd=233

It contains full history of the Bf 109 operation in Finland from 1943 till 1954. There are details of every one of 162 aircraft flown by the FiAF, full list of claims etc. Engine numbers are however missing.

Unfortunately this book is in Finnish, but using Google translator it should be fairly easy to find the most important and interesting details.

Matti

Dan History 17th April 2019 16:24

Re: List of DB 605A engine construction numbers?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Matti Salonen (Post 267729)
Most of the dates are when the aircraft was received from Germany, some of repair or overhaul and some of the 100 % loss or minor crash.

If you are interested in operation of Bf 109 G-2, G-6 and G-8 aircraft in Finland, I recommend the following book

Matti, thank you for your generosity in sharing engine information from your database, and for the book recommendation.

The recovery of the Bf 109 mentioned in Kirill's post above is described in an online article by Evgeny Porfir'ev (Евгений Порфирьев) published in November 2016. The author suggests that this Bf 109 was shot down by Guards Senior Lieutenant Rechkalov (гвардии старший лейтенант Речкалов), a P-39 Airacobra ace of 16 GIAP who would become the second-highest scoring Soviet pilot of the Second World War. He observes that this contradicts the information in German loss records, which list this aircraft as lost in a collision with another Bf 109, WNr. 13469. Both German pilots survived.

http://kubplazdarm.tuapse.ru/aviatsi...et-messer.html

Kind regards,

Dan

Frans A 17th April 2019 16:36

Re: List of DB 605A engine construction numbers?
 
Matti Salonen

Thank you Matti for your answer

Frans A

Rasmussen 17th April 2019 21:36

Re: List of DB 605A engine construction numbers?
 
1 Attachment(s)
in addition to the list of DB engines from #13 some DB 601 (repair list of I./ JG 53)

he219research 18th April 2019 08:06

Re: List of DB 605A engine construction numbers?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Tony Kambic (Post 267695)
Matti and Steve,

These can be added to the DB603 listing:

He219 A-2 WkNr 290202
DB603 A2 01602821 DB603 AA 01602842

Tony

Tony, are you certain about this?
I have the following listed (for WkNr 290202 @ NASM):
- left engine: DB603EM(?) , 01603067
- right engine: DB603AA , 01604893

Tony Kambic 18th April 2019 22:11

Re: List of DB 605A engine construction numbers?
 
I have some nice images of the engine Wrk Nr./dataplates to show, but now cannot figure out how to edit my old images to make room since I have no room to upload. Used to be easy but I have been all over this site and cannot locate where I manage my uploaded images.

Tony

Tony Kambic 19th April 2019 15:22

Re: List of DB 605A engine construction numbers?
 
3 Attachment(s)
I tried shrinking images so here are at least three. These DB603s are the ones that were preserved/restored for the He219. As I recall, three He219 were brought to the US as part of operation Lusty. There were additional engines of various types also shipped over.

These are the engines on the museum floor that will go on the He219 at Udvar-Hazy.

In the images you will see that one of the engines has the original dataplate while on the other engine it is missing. The 2842 dataplate shows the engine as an 'AA' model while the stamping shows 'A2'. You can also see a 2826 stamped in the block below to the right of the dataplate. Shows that possibly engine blocks were swapped.

Good news is that the He219 is getting closer to being put together. The radar dipole struts are now installed on the nose, and the dipoles are ready. The landing gear is is the shop being readied. I just saw one of the spinners on the floor uncrated and being readied. And there is work being done on the wing at the attachment points.

Tony


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