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-   -   Saburo Sakai (http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/showthread.php?t=46119)

knusel 20th September 2016 12:18

Saburo Sakai
 
Good morning,

were Saburo Sakai's 2 Mitsubishi A5M kills his only success not scored in the Zero ?

Cheers,

Michael

focusfocus 20th September 2016 15:14

Re: Saburo Sakai
 
yes

his 62 (very debatable) other claims with a zero

his last supposedly B-32 damaged the 17/8/45 ( 2 days after the surrender)Sakai himself could not recall if he was flying a Zero or a Shinden-Kai!

mars 20th September 2016 17:11

Re: Saburo Sakai
 
Saburo Sakai never claim he scored 62 kills

focusfocus 20th September 2016 18:56

Re: Saburo Sakai
 
64 kills ( 4 in china) generally admitted but according to his log book 78

regards

Leo Etgen 20th September 2016 19:44

Saburo Sakai
 
Hi guys

Interesting thread about the total number of claims recorded by this ace. It is my impression that due to a host of factors arriving at a specific number of victories for Japanese aces is often quite difficult. In the case of Saburo Sakai the most common number given is 64 but nearly all sources agree that this number was basically invented by Martin Caidin when he wrote Samurai! According to Japanese Naval Fighter Aces by Hata, Izawa and Shores, official records show that Sakai had claimed 28 victories by the time he was wounded in action on 7 August 1942. I hope this helps and any comments or corrections will be appreciated.

Horrido!

Leo

focusfocus 20th September 2016 21:07

Re: Saburo Sakai
 
hi

your feeling Leo is probably right because it's impossible to know certainty the score of Sakai
even the authors do not agree between them:Hata and Izawa WITHOUT Shores in their book of 1989 gives 64 kills( only 2 in china!) and now with Shores creditent Sakai with 28!!

one example:

in the Tainan Kokutai Kodochosho : 6/4/42 to 7/8/42 = 40 kills for Sakai alone or in collaboration and still it is necessary to forget to compare with the RAF and US real losses( I made the comparaison,and we are far from 28 even by including the kills before 6/4/42

regards

Stig Jarlevik 21st September 2016 15:22

Re: Saburo Sakai
 
Sakai was an interesting and a bit controversial character.

There is an interview with him here
http://www.warbirdforum.com/sakai.htm

Beside his feelings for Genda (which are interesting), can anyone say why he was so upset about the Kawanishi N1K1-J? Perhaps not an absolute world beater in 1945 but most pilots at least seems to have considered it to be better than the 'Zero'

Cheers
Stig

mars 21st September 2016 16:06

Re: Saburo Sakai
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by focusfocus (Post 223487)
64 kills ( 4 in china) generally admitted but according to his log book 78

regards

According to Japanese source, his final scores were around a dozen, he only fought about 8 months in the pacific war, after recovering from his wound, he flew few combat missions

knusel 26th September 2016 16:15

Re: Saburo Sakai
 
Dear Gentlemen,

these are the known kills of Sakai according to Sakai who attributes him with 60+ kills and according to Hata/Izawa/Shores who attribute him with 64 kills:
05.10.38 I-16 A5M 12 AG Hankow
03.10.39 DB-3 A5M 12 AG Hankow
08.12.41 ground kill B-17 A6M2 Tainan Philippines Clark Field
08.12.41 ground kill B-17 A6M2 Tainan Philippines - Clark Field
08.12.41 P-40 A6M2 Tainan Philippines - Clark Field
10.12.41 B-17 14 BS A6M2 Tainan Philippines [not credited]
Feb 1942 damaged B-17 A6M2 Balikpapan
28.02.42 F2A A6M2 [kill #13]
22.07.42 Hudson Sq 32 A6M2 Tainan Buna
07.08.42 F4F VF 5 A6M2 Tainan Guadalcanal
07.08.42 SBD VS 71 A6M2 Tainan Guadalcanal
07.08.42 EA A6M2 (3 kills on that date)
Shores attributes at least 4 kills over Guadalcanal to Sakai
his total reached in summer 1942 is variously given as 28 or 58 or 61
24.06.44 F6F USN A6M5 Yokosuka Iwo Jima
24.06.44 F6F USN A6M5 Yokosuka Iwo Jima
24.06.44 F6F USN A6M5 Yokosuka Iwo Jima
05.07.44 F6F USN A6M5 Yokosuka Iwo Jima
17.08.45 "B-32" ??? = "B-29" on the last day of war ??? (Shores)

Cheers,

Michael

DavidIsby 26th September 2016 18:01

Re: Saburo Sakai
 
I believe that the Netherlands East Indies naval biplane Sakai claimed has been related to a specific loss (though it is not on the above list).

focusfocus 26th September 2016 19:10

Re: Saburo Sakai
 
here is a verified list

2.5.42 3 P-40 1 justified shared with 6 others pilots
3.5.42 2 P-40 2 P-39 justified shared with 2 others pilots
12.5.42 2 P-39 1 justified shared with 5 others pilots
14.5.42 1 B-25 1 justified shared with 4 others pilots
21.5.42 1 P-39 no justified
25.5.42 6 B-25 6 justified shared with 11 others pilots
26.5.42 5 P-39 1 justified shared with 7 others pilots
28.5.42 2 B-26 2 justified shared with 3 others pilots
1.6.42 1 P-39 3 justified shared with 10 others pilots
9.6.42 4 B-26 2 justified shared with 24 others pilots
16.6.42 4 P-39 5 justified shared with 10 others pilots
22.7.42 1 hudson 1 justified shared with 5 others pilots
26.7.42 3 B-26 3 justified shared with 8 others pilots
30.7.42 1 B-17 no justified
2.8.42 1 P-39 2 justified shard with 5 others pilots

total= 4.3 !!!!

we are far of 64 or 28 victories

regards

Flavio 27th September 2016 00:36

Re: Saburo Sakai
 
1 Attachment(s)
Dear all,

referring to the score of Japanese aces, we all know that the overclaiming is very high and accuracy is very low. However just for statistic purpose we can have a look to what was official credited. In my opinion one of the most "accurate" source (apparently based on official documents, not memoirs....) is the book "Heroes of the Imperial Japanese Navy Air Force" Model Art no.439.
Here, there is a detailed list of Sakai's victories (see attach) that summarizes 55 individual claims + 19 shared (WW2 only).

I think this could be the score we have to use for compare Sakai's victories to those "officially" credited to the other Aces (Japanese or not).

Of course the verified list is another story...

Flavio

Jim Oxley 27th September 2016 02:16

Re: Saburo Sakai
 
That list is really interesting Michael. May I ask where you drew the information from?

Do you not have any information on combat over New Guinea in the period Feb to July 1942?

knusel 27th September 2016 10:59

Re: Saburo Sakai
 
Dear Flavio,

wow, this list is amazing !
Sadly, I do not speak Japanese at all :-(
Could you possibly mark the 19 shared kills ?

Cheers,

Michael

focusfocus 27th September 2016 11:57

Re: Saburo Sakai
 
hi gentlemens

the probleme is that real informations is mixed with others distort and are then repeated years after years without checks.
I refer in particular of the "book" of MARTIN CAIDIN ( dubious origin and veracity)

FLAVIO your attached list is extracted from the log book of SAKAI,list that we can find in the book of HENRY SAKAIDA:WINGED SAMURAI writing in 1985

my short list is extracted from the OFFICIAL TAINAN KOKUTAI KODOCHOSHO
writing in the world war two and not many years after the war

which explains the difference .

regards

focusfocus 27th September 2016 13:55

Re: Saburo Sakai
 
attached two examples of victories not corresponding

26.5.42

at 1125 hours,the official "kodochosho" indicates that 16 tainan reisen engaged 29 aircraft claiming 5 airacobras destroyed.
the claims were JOINTLY shared between Un'ichi Miya
Jun'ichi Sasai
Toshio Ota
Satoshi Yoshino
Kazushi Uto
Take'ichi Kokubun
Masayoshi Yonekawa
and SABURO SAKAI

but in his log book and other publications Sakai claimed 2 P-39 !!


11.7.42

mission to Port Moresby

1 Chutai
1 Shotai: Joji Yamashita,Ichirobei Yamazaki,Hiroshi Okano

2 Shotai:Hiroyoshi Nishizawa,Kazushi Uto,Masami Arai

2 Chutai
1Shotai:Jun'ichi Sasai,Masuaki Eendo,Matsumi Suzuki

2 Shotai:Toshio Ota,Seiji Ishikawa,Takeo Matsuda

the tainan pilots claimed two P-39 destroyed,one each by Nishizawa and by Uto

official kodochosho

and in the log book of Sakai 1 P-39 that day! but no official mention of him!!


regards

mars 27th September 2016 16:05

Re: Saburo Sakai
 
focusfocus, as I understand, Japanese army and navy airforce units did not keep score for individual pilots, instead all enemy aircrafts shot down were recorded as achievement by their units

mars 27th September 2016 16:10

Re: Saburo Sakai
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Flavio (Post 223727)
Dear all,

referring to the score of Japanese aces, we all know that the overclaiming is very high and accuracy is very low.

I kind of think this is depend on individual and the units, at least in the early stage of the war, Japanese overclaiming rate were no worse than American and British they fought

focusfocus 27th September 2016 17:51

Re: Saburo Sakai
 
hi

no not necessarily shared but also as individual recorded.

the japanese overclaiming rate is much important than american and british

some examples japanese

6.4.42 5 claims 2 real losses
10.4.42 3 claims 1 real losses
2.5.42 8 claims 1 real losses
25.5.42 6 claims 6 real losses!
18.6.42 18 claims 5 real losses

4.42 to 10.42 = 374 claims ( all in the official "kodochosho") rabaul/new guinea 139 real losses US and BRITISH

the difference with overclaiming US

guadalcanal 7.8.42

claims of VF5 :Scarlet 2 and scarlet 8 : 5 claims
japanese real losses: 4

a very good ratio claims/losses

claims of VF5 and VF6 : 16 vals
japanese real losses : only 5 vals of the 2°kokutai

and now the japanese
in the "kodochosho" 36 claims 11 real losses US!

regards

mars 27th September 2016 19:53

Re: Saburo Sakai
 
As I said, it depends on individual and units, you can read "The Black Sheep: The Definitive History of Marine Fighting Squadron 214 in World War II" by Bruce Gamble or William H. Bartsch's books about the early stage of pacific war, basically, Japanese, American and British constaly submitted an overclaime about 4-5:1

Flavio 27th September 2016 23:03

Re: Saburo Sakai
 
Dear Michael,

I don't speak Japanese too!

Anyway when I bought this book years ago I also bought a Japanese dictionary; thanks to it, leafing page after page (at that time Google translator was a dream...) I was able to understand the meaning of some ideograms (kanji). In detail the first shared victory is the B-17 on Feb 8th, the second the B-25 on May 14th...look at the ideogram at the end and you'll find the other shared. The ideogram on May 17th means "probable" (on that day Sakai claimed 2 P-39s sures + 1 probable) while the second B-26 on May 28th was "damaged".

focusfocus thanks for adding details; you are right I checked my copy of "Winged Samurai" where is quoted that the list has been taken from Sakai's logbook (unfortunately I gained my second-hand copy of this book some times after the Japanese dictionary....). However I think also Sakai's logbook is an "official" document even if there are discordances if compared to Tainan KODOCHOSHO.

Flavio

focusfocus 28th September 2016 14:45

Re: Saburo Sakai
 
Hello Flavio and other gentlemen

for me,it's THE PROBLEM to continue has to set in reference years after years documents "official" as base by forgetting to use the serious truths.

let us take the example of 12/5/42

tainan kokutai kodochosho:6 pilots of 2°chutai engaged 10 airacobras at 0820hours.

Shiro Kawai,Hiroyoshi Nishizawa,Takeichiro Hidaka,Toshiaki Honda,Tamio Kobayashi, AND SABURO SAKAI JOINTLY claimed 2 P-39 shot down and one probable,along with 2 P-39 damaged on the ground.in reality only 1 P-39 lost(36°Sqd USAF 2/Lt Robert M. Wilde ).

now, what do we make?we leave an alone victory for Sakail as indicated by his log book since X years and why Sakai and not Kawai or Nishizawa.......
or as we say in France:"remettre les pendules a l'heure" more or less in english set the record straight.

in this case 1/6 victory for every pilots in the interest of equity and historical reality and no 1 victory for Sakai alone
no?
regards

Stig Jarlevik 28th September 2016 15:57

Re: Saburo Sakai
 
While an interesting discussion in itself I feel it is rather futile.

Being a totally non-Japanese speaking /reading individual this is what I have picked up through the years.

I doubt there ever was an 'official' Japanese victory board (or its equivalent) either during or after the war. You will not find any official Japanese score list sanctioned by any Japanese Government body. What we have are historians and enthusiasts trying to put Japan on par with the rest of the scoring nations during WW 2. If this has changed I would very much like to know where and how this 'official' body in Japan works and on what grounds it bases its findings.

The Japanese never to my knowledge acknowledged any scores or aces during the war. Presumably the leadership, schooled in old traditional warrior values such as Bushido and Samurai, saw little use in doing that.

Rather naturally this provoked a reaction at the front and and at local level (unit), something was felt to be done. This probably ensured that each unit kept records and unofficially gave credits in a rather hap hazard way since no real set up rules existed. No doubt differences also existed between units not to mention between IJAAF and IJN.

Neither did there exist any real post mission control. What a pilot said stood. No one question if 'his word' was correct or not, if witnesses existed etc. It was a question of honour, of not loosing face etc.
Hence the very varied listings which keep appearing over and over again.

As far as I know, shared victories did not exist during the war. If six pilots took part in a shoot down, each pilot was entitled to one victory. Why has Sakai for example only one claim in his log book, but in other sources two?
Most probably the compiler of victories deemed his presence enough for him to be 'allowed' also the second victory (if two victories was the final score).
This also ensured that first record keeper did it one way and second one in a different way. No set rules existed, so these discrepancies is what we have left.

Also the practice with shared victories is interesting. Only Japan and France (in 1940) had the system that all pilots involved in a shoot down received a full credit for the downed aircraft.

We also have to remember that when it came to Japan they had a very, very different approach to the war and even on an individual level this effected pilots rather differently then their western foes. Trying to approach such a system with a western way of seeing things will always fail. For instance we know the Japanese pilots made extreme claims during the war, especially in the beginning, and to me it is more interesting to search for an answer as to why they did so, than trying to find out the relation between claims and true losses and so on.

I am also quite certain that regardless if Sakai (for example) only scored 4, 14 or 64 victories, none of us would have stood a chance meeting him in the air....:)

Cheers
Stig

mars 28th September 2016 16:02

Re: Saburo Sakai
 
focusfocus, it is obviously that kill was officially assigned to all Japanese pilots who participated in this combat regardless, French airforce in WWII had a similar policy, a shot down would be assigned to all pilots participated in the mission, sometimes assigned to entire squadron, regardless whether individual pilots fired a shot at that down enemy aircraft, a "kill" would be an achievement for a unit, not individual, hence the difference between unit record and the pilot log book

mars 28th September 2016 16:09

Re: Saburo Sakai
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Stig Jarlevik (Post 223798)
Also the practice with shared victories is interesting. Only Japan and France (in 1940) had the system that all pilots involved in a shoot down received a full credit for the downed aircraft.


Cheers
Stig

The "involved" was very loosely defined, you would only need to be there, and you do not need even to fire a shot.

knusel 28th September 2016 16:17

Re: Saburo Sakai
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Flavio (Post 223769)
Dear Michael,

I don't speak Japanese too!

Anyway when I bought this book years ago I also bought a Japanese dictionary; thanks to it, leafing page after page (at that time Google translator was a dream...) I was able to understand the meaning of some ideograms (kanji). In detail the first shared victory is the B-17 on Feb 8th, the second the B-25 on May 14th...look at the ideogram at the end and you'll find the other shared. The ideogram on May 17th means "probable" (on that day Sakai claimed 2 P-39s sures + 1 probable) while the second B-26 on May 28th was "damaged".

focusfocus thanks for adding details; you are right I checked my copy of "Winged Samurai" where is quoted that the list has been taken from Sakai's logbook (unfortunately I gained my second-hand copy of this book some times after the Japanese dictionary....). However I think also Sakai's logbook is an "official" document even if there are discordances if compared to Tainan KODOCHOSHO.

Flavio

...you're right !
How fascinating !

Michael

BruceMk11 28th September 2016 17:42

Re: Saburo Sakai
 
Quote:

4.42 to 10.42 = 374 claims ( all in the official "kodochosho") rabaul/new guinea 139 real losses US and BRITISH
What BRITISH losses???

focusfocus 28th September 2016 18:51

Re: Saburo Sakai
 
oh-oh- stay cool Gentlemen

I didn't say that!.I'm just asking!!
you seem very nervous? no?
Of course that I know that the japanese victories are not shared but I am ONLY surprised when we compare the claiming,they are so different! and by wich magic trick we arrive at the scores today.
as no score official exists,why do not make a new update list,after each can drawn his conclusions cool very cool.

I well know about the french system(I am french),it makes sometimes debat

good day

best regards

focusfocus 28th September 2016 19:00

Re: Saburo Sakai
 
Bruce mk11

sory,sory unforgivable mistake,I wanted to say AUSTRALIA not british of course

mars 29th September 2016 05:43

Re: Saburo Sakai
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by focusfocus (Post 223807)
oh-oh- stay cool Gentlemen

I didn't say that!.I'm just asking!!
you seem very nervous? no?
Of course that I know that the japanese victories are not shared but I am ONLY surprised when we compare the claiming,they are so different! and by wich magic trick we arrive at the scores today.
as no score official exists,why do not make a new update list,after each can drawn his conclusions cool very cool.

I well know about the french system(I am french),it makes sometimes debat

good day

best regards

Let us say there were four Japanese pilots A B C and D, they met two US aircreafts, A and B immedietely bounced the Americans, C and D remained above for cover, A and B both opened fire, and one US aicrafts went down, after retun the base, A and B submit their combat record, in which both claim sho down that US aicreafts, their command compile these report and credit one kill share by A, B, C, D, and recorded it inot unit combat diary, which later beame part of official report. At the mean time, in their personal flight log, A and B each claim himself shot down that US aircraft, and since most of Japanese units did not admit individaul score, hence no one would approve or disapprove each claim, so whatever A and B wrote in the flight logs were remained unofficial, hence the difference between official and individual record

focusfocus 29th September 2016 15:01

Re: Saburo Sakai
 
hello Mars

thank you for your explanation.I am half convinced but it's me

just a question for all on this forum: the historic truth,we just forget?why not,in this case it's necessary to say to Chistopher Shores for exemple not to write any more his exellents books,because some on this forum seem to think that the historic truth have no importance
it's not my idea.

for others as me,send your address e-mails,I would send you details of kills/losses of the Tainan Kokutai and after each can drawn his conclusions.

besr regards to all

Flavio 29th September 2016 20:39

Re: Saburo Sakai
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by focusfocus (Post 223856)
hello Mars

thank you for your explanation.I am half convinced but it's me

just a question for all on this forum: the historic truth,we just forget?why not,in this case it's necessary to say to Chistopher Shores for exemple not to write any more his exellents books,because some on this forum seem to think that the historic truth have no importance
it's not my idea.

for others as me,send your address e-mails,I would send you details of kills/losses of the Tainan Kokutai and after each can drawn his conclusions.

besr regards to all

focusfocus,
you are right, we have to follow the historic truth.

Any way if you have a revisited a score you can compare it only with another revisited. Does make sense compare Sakai's 4 with Kozhedub's 64 or Hartmann's 352 or Bong's 40? The problem is that it is impossible to clear 100% official scores from overclaiming. Even the excellent works by Shores are not able; comparing claims to real losses gives you just an idea of the amount of the overclaiming but facing off dogfights with dozens of pilots involved and dozens of claimings who knows exactly the pilot that really shoot down an enemy plane? There are exceptions of course, but reconstruction with 100% of authenticity is impossible.

Flavio

knusel 30th September 2016 09:55

Re: Saburo Sakai
 
Flavio is right.

M

focusfocus 30th September 2016 11:17

Re: Saburo Sakai
 
Hi Flavio

ALL you says is right,I agree with you is 200%
the one who compares Sakai,Bong,Hartmann..... is an IDIOT
yes a revised list stays a revised list, after to historians,autority legal....to make the job or not

best regards

John Beaman 30th September 2016 18:10

Re: Saburo Sakai
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by focusfocus (Post 223905)
Hi Flavio

ALL you says is right,I agree with you is 200%
the one who compares Sakai,Bong,Hartmann..... is an IDIOT
yes a revised list stays a revised list, after to historians,autority legal....to make the job or not

best regards

m

Be careful here. There was VAST over claiming by all combatants in WWII. Your last part of your post is not all that clear.

Nick Beale 1st October 2016 00:34

Re: Saburo Sakai
 
"some on this forum seem to think that the historic truth have no importance"

My own impression of TOCH, focusfocus, is that hardly anyone here thinks like that. Aren't you in danger of overclaiming?

focusfocus 1st October 2016 12:38

Re: Saburo Sakai
 
hello all

my language is not english, I don't anderstand toch.

in summary

Saburo Sakai(Sakai Saburo in japanese language) was a great,very great pilot in ww2
his first big victory was to survive in ww2( how many dead pilots)
but he is an "ace" with a record of victories: how victories?

no"official" japanese victory board,no any "official" japanese score list by government,historians and enthusiasats trying to put a list: everybody knows that!

I have the claims of Sakai in Rabaul/new guinea ( 1.4.42 to 2.8.42) from the Tainan Kokutai "Kodochosho"

total=37 claims ( alone or shared ) and we have his log book total same periode = 53

I want to anderstand why 64 or 28 ,a dozen, more or less

the simplicity is to look the "kodochosho" no? and now why not?

I am just an enthusiast and want to understand .

Is this someone who can help me? otherwise we pass has other things.

good day all

best regards

Nick Beale 1st October 2016 16:54

Re: Saburo Sakai
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by focusfocus (Post 223947)
hello all

my language is not english, I don't anderstand toch.
best regards

Twelve O'Clock High.

Nick Hector 3rd October 2016 03:35

Re: Saburo Sakai
 
So, where exactly does this story fit into Sakai's victory list? Source: http://jsonpedia.org/annotate/resour..._Squadron_RAAF

In July 1942, No. 32 Squadron was active in the Gona area and during the lead-up to the Battle of Milne Bay.Wilson, Stewart. Anson, Hudson & Sunderland in Australian Service. Aerospace Publications, Weston Creek ACT 1992. ISBN 1-875671-02-1The skill and fighting spirit of a lone, outnumbered crew from No. 32 Squadron impressed Saburō Sakai, who would become among the highest-scoring Japanese aces of the war. (30 April 2014). Pilot Officer Warren Cowan, Pilot Officer David Taylor, Sergeant Russell Polack and Sergeant Lauri Sheard, in Hudson Mk IIIA A16–201 (bu.no. 41-36979), were killed in action after being shot down by Sakai on 22 July 1942. (30 April 2014). A16–201 was intercepted over Buna, Papua New Guinea by nine Mitsubishi A6M "Zeroes" of the Tainan Air Group, led by Sakai. The Hudson's crew surprised the Zero pilots by taking the initiative in a turning dogfight and were apparently unscathed for at least 10 minutes. Sakai observed that after he killed or wounded the Hudson's rear/upper gunner, the pilot became less able to evade his rounds. It caught fire and crashed in jungle near the coastal village of Popogo. So impressed were the Japanese pilots by their opponents that, many years after the war's end, Sakai asked Australian researchers to help him identify the pilot. In 1997, Sakai took the unusual step of writing to the Australian government, recommending that Cowan be "posthumously awarded your country's highest military decoration".The Commonwealth's highest military honour – and the only Military awards and decorations that can be awarded posthumously, has always been the Victoria Cross. The suggestion was rejected on the grounds that all such recommendations had been closed at the war's end, 52 years earlier

focusfocus 3rd October 2016 10:45

Re: Saburo Sakai
 
hi Nick

story of the hudson well known

I join these informations

from the "kodochosho"

1° patrol over Buna

1 Shotai: mototsuna yoshida,shiro kawai,tatsusuke goto

2 Shotai: tadashi hayashitani,yoshisuke hoshiya,kazushi uto

without incident ( 1345 hours)

2° patrol

1° Shotai:hiroshi okano,ichirobei yamazaki,joji yamashita

2° Shotai:tora'ichi takatsuka,susumi matsuki,yoshio motoyoshi

without incident ( 1600hours)

3° patrol

1° Shotai:jun'ichi sasai,toshio ota,masuaki endo

2° Shotai: saburo sakai,masayoshi yonekawa,yoshio mogi

hudson shot down, the "kodochosho lists the victory ( 1450 hours ) sharing equally between the 6 pilots above.

in his log book Sakai: hudson shared with 7 pilots.

regards


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