FAA total
 

Hi,

In Seafire vs A6M Zero-sen (Osprey, 2009), Donald Nijboer claims: 'The Fleet Air Arm was credited with 455.5 aerial victories in six years of war, and American-built fighters contributed more than a third of these-52 for the F6F Hellcat, 52.5 for the F4U Corsair and 67 for the F4F Wildcat. Seafire pilots claimed 37 kills, 15 of which were Zero-sens. The remaining 247 aircraft were credited to the Sea Hurricanes, Fireflies, Fulmars, Sea Gladiators and Skuas'.

I believe there were also a few claims by Avengers and one for the Blackburn Roc (Ju 88). Additionally, FAA pilots also claimed on attachment to the RAF, flying Hurricanes, Spitfires, Mosquitos etc. The total victory claims by FAA pilots must therefore be greater than 455.5, unless Nijboer miscalculated in the first place (assuming the figure is his original research).

Has anyone else arrived at a total? Or a total for any of these a/c types?

Cheers,

Bruce

Re: FAA total
 

Bruce

Cannot comment on the Avenger and Skua claims, but I think you need to separate FAA and FAA pilots. Individually the FAA pilots claimed more victories than the FAA itself.

Any victories claimed with RAF units/aircraft should, in my mind, be recorded as RAF victories.

Cheers
Stig

Re: FAA total
 

Hi mate,

I don't have 67 for the Wildcat, only about 58 (60?), Fulmars contributed 200+, Sea Hurricanes about 25 (mostly on Pedestal operation, first one in 1941, 2 in 1944 with 835 squadron). I have 9 for Fireflies, 3 for Avengers, one for the Albacore in 1941.

regards

Keith

Re: FAA total
 

Bruce,

In 2007 I began ghost writing the bio of Air Commodore Christopher Paul, (05164)

Paul had started his career with the FAA, and had done extensive research work on the FAA which was assembled in 12 A4 boxes and 3 A3 boxes were talking reams of paper, photographs, claims, biographies on crews, combat reports etc., sadly since his wife Molly died I've been unable to locate there whereabouts.

Best regards

Andy B

Re: FAA total
 

Stig, Keith, Andy: thanks for your input.

Keith: got any details re the Albacore claim?

Andy: keep looking!!

Moderators: was this thread moved? Is it because I quote from a source that mentions Zeros in the title??

Re: FAA total
 

Hello,

"Got any details re the Albacore claim?"

https://ktsorens.tihlde.org/flyvrak/steinland.html

Albacore I N4307

Delivered Yeovilton 3.2.41.
827 Sqn ('4K') 2.41-10.41.
'Victorious', Kirkenes raid, Ju 87 shot down, own a/c undamaged 30.7.41. (Lt J N Ball, Lt B J Prendergast & PO A E Sweet).

FAA Aircraft 1939-1945.
Sturtivant & Burrow.
p.131.

NB. There were also a few probable/damaged claims made by other Albacore pilots on this raid.

Col

Re: FAA total
 

--------------------------------------------------------
I do not recall moving this thread.

Where do think it belongs?

Re: FAA total
 

Thanks Col. It would be interesting to know if that claim is substantiated by LW records.

Sorry John. Looks like I've caught the befuddled bug.

Re: FAA total
 

By the way I only have 42 at most for Corsairs, not 52; with the Victorious squadrons (1834,1836) accounting for most of them (24). Although I have three unattributed other than to "Corsairs" and some unattributed Hellcat claims also.

The Hellcats had the advantage of scoring several victories in ETO. 1844,1839 added around 40 in BPF (several shared with Corsairs and Seafires), and 8 were credited to the Escort Carriers in the Indian Ocean.

regards

Keith

Re: FAA total
 

On the Albacore case.
According to Hannu Valtonen's Luftwaffen Pohjoinen Sivusta (1997) the Ju 87 was Ju 87 B-1 W.Nr. 5310, LI+EW, 12.(St.)/LG 1, shot down by Lt. J. N. Ball/827 Sqn with his front gun. The crew of the Ju 87 KIA. As a plus one Bf 110 seems to be shot down by an Albacore gunner. At least its crew, the Bf 110 pilot, Karl-Fritz Schlossstein, and his gunner, both survived, maintained that they were shot down by an Albacore gunner whose plane they were hitting hard not by a Fulmar. British and Valtonen in his book allocate this loss to a Fulmar but when Schlossstein visited Finland some years ago he still insisted that he was shot down by an Albacore rear gunner.

Juha

Re: FAA total
 

Thanks Juha

Re: FAA total
 

I have claims for Albacores on July 30, 1941 at Kirkenes as follows, all of 827 Sqn:

1 Me 110 probable and one Ju 87 damaged, by Lt John Curwen Reid + LtCdr James Andrew Stewart-Moore (obs) + PO Herbert John Lambert (gunner) in "4A" = N4330

One Ju 87 destroyed by Lt John Nigel Ball + Lt Bernard James Prendergast (obs) + PO A E Sweet (gunner) in "4K" = N4307

One Me 109 probable by SubLt Richard Bruce Park + SubLt Oswald Gordon Weston Hutchinson + L/Air Ernest Percival Fabien (gunner) in "4P" (Sturtivant in FAA Aircraft says 4L = N4348)

The only other Albacore claim I have is for an unknown crew on June 21, 1940 for a Me 109 damaged at Willemsoord Harbour by 826 Sqn. I think I spotted something on this in FAA Aircraft.

Does anyone have Sweet's full name? And should the officers be Lt(A) and LtCdr(A) and SubLt(A) ?

Enjoy!

Frank.

Re: FAA total
 

Hello
the Bf 110 was 110 E-2 WNr. 4394, LN+DR, I./JG 77 (this is the unit designation given by Valtonen, Manninen in his article on the attack in Suomen Ilmailuhistoriallinen Lehti 2/2012 gives it as Z./JG 77, might also be 1.(Z.)/JG 77, the designations of the fighter and zerstörer units up north were in constant fluctuation in 1941 so it is difficult to give a firm answer without spending time to check various sources). The crew Lt. Karl-Friedrich Schlossstein and his gunner Gefr Heinz Gutsche were rescued onto the artillery training ship (Artillerieschulschiff) Bremse. And as I wrote earlier, according to the crew the Bf 110 was shot down by an Albacore rear gunner whose fire hit the both engines igniting them.

Juha

Re: FAA total
 

Had a quick look in the Navy List April 1942 and no (A) for Reid or Hutchinson, but (A) for Park. The others weren't in the list for 827 Sqn by that stage.

Re: FAA total
 

Frank,

Thanks for the claims details. Any times for the claims?

From the Navy List for August 1941:

Ball Lt.(A) RN
Hutchinson ASL(A) RNVR (Acting Sub-Lt.)
Park Sub-Lt.(A) RN
Prendergast Lt. RN
Reed (not Reid) Lt. RN
Stewart-Moore Lt.Cdr. RN

Often I find that regular RN officer aircrew did not have the (A) appended to their ranks. Most likely the petty officers would be designated PO(A) as well.

Cheers,
Tom

Re: FAA total
 

There is a book "Seafire the Spitfire that went to sea" which has a list of Seafire claims ect. I have posted them on this site some time ago with some match ups with known enemy losses.
Osprey has a book on FAA aces, I think their books on Wildcat, Hellcat and Corsair aces may have the FAA claims.
C Shores books also have many of the FAAs claims

Re: FAA total
 

Total Sea Hurricane accepted claims would have been ~50:
~7 CAM ship claims
~1 claims during Kirkenes and Petsamo, IIRC.
~28+ claims during HARPOON and PEDESTAL
~3+ claims during PQ18
~3 claims from Nairana in 1944
~5 claims during TORCH
and undoubtedly others.

Re: FAA total
 

Sounds good Duncan, I hadn't realised they claimed so many...do claims with 803/806 RNFS count? I realise they are Hurricanes rather than Sea Hurricanes but perhaps following the idea that Seafires in the Normandy landings were effectively Spitfire V, and Martlet claims with RNFS/805?

I have 5 with PQ18 but think that is too high, and just 2 with 835 in 1944 (one shared with two pilots).

Keith
p.s. FAA claims with RAF be about 30 or so?

Re: FAA total
 

Just a thought but CAM claims are surely RAF except for one?

Re: FAA total
 

The CAM claims were by ship launched Sea Hurricane 1As, even if most of the pilots were RAF.

Re: FAA total
 

AFAIK, these are all shipborne kill claims. Shore based FAA Sea Hurricanes might have claimed others as well.

According to the RN NSH The Royal navy and the Arctic Convoys there were 6 accepted Sea Hurricane kill claims during PQ-18, but one may have been a CAM fighter.

There were certainly two post-war verified claims for Nairana/835sqn in 1944 but I believe that a 3rd aircraft was claimed to have been shot down, as it was burning and losing altitude when last seen.

Re: FAA total
 

According to David Brown Fairey Fulmar MK I & II, AP 254, there were 112 Fulmar kills.

Re: FAA total
 

Thanks for the additional input.

Re: FAA total
 

I have a copy of Sturtivant's FLEET AIR ARM AIRCRAFT 1939 TO 1945. It gives a very short service history of every FAA aircraft including any approved kill claims. A quick read through the section on the Gloster Sea Gladiator shows a total of 13 aerial kills while the section on the Skua shows 27 kills.

I don't know how accurate these totals are and it involves adding up a number of fractional kills.

Re: FAA total
 

I did some work on the Kirkenes raid based on re-reading Send Her Victorious. I have decided that the four claims on this raid are three fighters (2 Bf110 and a Bf109) by the Fulmars of 809 Squadron, by LtCdr VC Grenfell, Lt J Cooper and SLt AER Wilkinson and one by an Albacore that's been discussed before. On a process of elimination can anyone tell me who claimed the Bf109? Based on the text it will be Wilkinson.

regards

Keith