RAF 205th Bomber Group & Operation Gardening...
 

I'm looking for informations about the 205th Bomber-Group of the Royal Air-Force during the Operation Gardening. (= mining the River Danube)

AFAIK, the 205th BG was subordinated to the 9th US AF.
Is this correct??
Any informations about the 205th BG??
CO, OoB, TO&E???

The first test flights mining the Danube were flown somewhere during the fall of 1943.
When exactly??
How many sorties???

The official start for Operation Gardening was the night of 8th/9th April of 1944. The last flight was in the night of 4th/5th October of 1944.
All in all 18 sorties were flown.
Any infos on the date of the sorties??
Any infos on any losses during Operation Gardening??
Any infos about the mines which were dropped??

According my only source even Wellingtons(???) were flown?
Is this correct?



Just a sidestep-quastion:
Were there any other RAF units ever subordinated to any US AF??



Thanks in advance!!


MfG Michi

Re: RAF 205th Bomber Group & Operation Gardening...
 

No, it isn't. After a brief spell in North Africa, by 1944 US 9th AF was based in Britain and later in liberated Western Europe, providing tactical support to the American Army. US Air Forces in the Mediterranean in 1944-45 were the 12th and 15th (tactical and strategic forces, respectively).

No. 205 Group was the name, not 205th BG (that's what a USAAF unit might be called not an RAF one).

It was part of Mediterranean Allied Strategic Air Forces (MASAF) which was itself part of Mediterranean Allied Air Forces (MAAF). Its main equipment was Wellingtons and then Halifaxes and Liberators. It included a number of South African Air Force Squadrons and (I think) at least one Polish one.

The history of 205 Group's activities is in the British National Archives in its Operations Record Books and those of its Squadrons and in the Daily Intelligence/Operations Summaries of MASAF.

Re: RAF 205th Bomber Group & Operation Gardening...
 

Sorry that I intervene here, my only written source (a German book about fightings on the River Danube) and searching via google for the 205 whatever, strengthen my point of view that the 205 whatever of the RAF was part of an US AF. (whatever the number was)


As I have written it in a different forum.
Also my post, before my big computer crash a few years ago.
(So I had much more sources for my research)

From an RAF Forum

From a Wimpys (Vikers Wellington) homepage.

From a hompage Reflections of 205 Group.


The problem, why I'm riding on this details is, after researching the topic River Danube during the WWII for over a decade I'm going to write some articles, later on mybe a book.
That's why I'm so keen on this fact-bits.




MfG Michi

Re: RAF 205th Bomber Group & Operation Gardening...
 

I am relying entirely on wartime archival sources, not the web. The British archives have copious records of MASAF which was an Allied entity distinct from the US 15th AF.

Another point is that "gardening" was the code name that the RAF gave to minelaying by its heavy bombers, whether in the North Sea or the Danube. It was not the name of a particular operation.

Re: RAF 205th Bomber Group & Operation Gardening...
 

Michi

205 Group RAF was a part of MASAF --> MAAF, which was a formation under joint command of RAF and USAAF.
In regard to unit subordination, e.g, No 208 or No225 Squadrons, both TAC/R, were under command of 63.FW, which was an USAAF unit, but in the same time 79.FG flew for DAF, which was a RAF unit late 1944/early 45.

Also, when you say sorties you actually mean missions. I am not quite sure how many of these were completed. This is a list I have, but I am not sure it is 100% accurate, as I used it as a side-note for the research of my area of interest.

April (3)8/9 12/13
14/15

May (4)
5/6
9/10
29/30
31/1 Jun

July (3)
1/2
2/3
30/31

August (5)
7/8
10/11
26/27 or 27/28
28/29
29/30

September (3)
5/6
6/7
10/11

October (1)
4/5


If you really want to write a book on this topic you should cut your teeth on the archive material. To get you going, here are the losses for missions to Danube that I have. They might be nearly complete, but hopefully, you'll need much more detailed info than dates and serials.

Cheers.

• 8/9 Apr 1944 - LP139/B - No 70 Sqn - 2KIA, 3? - Yugoslavia

• 14/15 Apr 1944 - EV825 - No 178 Sqn - CR on T/OFF - Italy

• 14/15 Apr 1944 - EV920 - No 178 Sqn - CR on T/OFF - Italy

• 31 May/1Jun 1944 - BZ894 - No 178 Sqn - CR on LAND - Italy

• 1/2 Jul 1944 - LP497/A - No 40 Sqn - 4 KIA, 1 POW - Yugoslavia

• 1/2 Jul 1944 - LN744/N - No 40 Sq - 5 EVD - Yugoslavia

• 1/2 Jul 1944 - MF131 - No 104 Sqn - 2 KIA, 3 MIA - Yugoslavia

• 1/2 Jul 1944 - MF137/H - No 104 Sqn - 5 KIA - Yugoslavia

• 27/28 Aug 1944 - EW160 - No 178 Sqn - 1 RTD, 1 MIA, 3 KIA, 2 ? - Yugoslavia

• 28/29/Aug 1944 - EW165 - No 34 Sqn SAAF - 5 KIA - Hungary

• 10/11 Sep 1944 - EW205 - No 34 Sqn SAAF - ? - Czechoslovakia

• 4/5 Oct 1944 MF458/A No 40 Sqn 1 KIA, 4 MIA Czechoslovakia

Re: RAF 205th Bomber Group & Operation Gardening...
 

What it is worth in Maurice G. Lihou's memories OUT OF THE ITALIAN NIGHT. Wellington Bomber Operations 1944-45. Airlife 2003, first published in 1992 as It's Dicey Flying Wimpys there is recollections on 4 gardening sorties and the Appendix II is Bombing, Mining and Supply Operations Carried out by No. 205 Group, MASAF February 1944 - May 1945 (pp 183 - 192).

HTH
Juha

Re: RAF 205th Bomber Group & Operation Gardening...
 

Thanks Gents,
I appreciate your help.

It looks like that I can (and will) make a complete chapter on mining the Danube by plane.

The German counter-measures were 3 things:
Forming a huge flottillia of mine-sweeping boats by the German navy and other Axis navies
Forming a squadron of mine-sweeping Ju 52/MS responsible for the Danube by the German Airforce.
Errecting of two Entmagnetisierungsschleifen (~ demagnetization slopes).
All in all these German counter-measures couldn't prevent the decline of the cargo transport on the Danube down to a third. (at least partly)
Sometimes even the complete route on the Danube had to be closed for days after aerial mining missions.



MfG Michi

Re: RAF 205th Bomber Group & Operation Gardening...
 

Schenk, if you have more details about the bomber lost during the last Gardening operation on 4/5 Oct 1944, I will be interested.

On a related subject, I found on a German forum a list of ships sunk in the Donau due to war causes, and a good part of them were sunk by mines. The list is available at http://f24.parsimony.net/forum56651/messages/2382.htm.

Re: RAF 205th Bomber Group & Operation Gardening...
 

HI
I am not going to repeat about the setup of 205 Gp, but there is a book called:
The men who went to Warsaw
that was written by L Isemonger,a crewmember on the raids.
He was part of the SAAF.
It does not have an index which is irritating but deals with the activities of 205 Gp.
It lists all the a/c lost with their fates and crews and will be of great help.
You can contact
karelz@yebo.co.za.
who owns the Aviation shop in S Africa that sells it
Stefaan

Re: RAF 205th Bomber Group & Operation Gardening...
 

So the No. 205 Group did support also the Warsaw uprising??

MfG Michi