Luftwaffe and Allied Air Forces Discussion Forum

Luftwaffe and Allied Air Forces Discussion Forum (http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/index.php)
-   Post-WW2 Military and Naval Aviation (http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/forumdisplay.php?f=35)
-   -   The Mikoyan-Gurevich MiG-21 - the utmost longevity of scoring (http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/showthread.php?t=62352)

GoranA 6th August 2022 02:09

Re: The Mikoyan-Gurevich MiG-21 - the utmost longevity of scoring
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by knusel (Post 321717)
Hello Goran,

I've found the following entry for the first MiG-21 kill:
https://warisboring.com/in-1964-the-...n-oil-company/

Can you tell me if the dubious Syrian claim from 1964 for an Israeli Mystere was earlier ?

Have a nice Thursday,

Michael




Hello Michael


Yes, it does seem that the C-82 in 1964 was the first victim for Mig-21

http://baaa-acro.sindev.ch/crash/cra...ndria-2-killed

The incident with the claimed Mystere happened on 13.11.1963 during clashes between Israel and Syria along the Jordan river. Two Syrian Mig-21 attacked one of the Israeli formations and claimed an aircraft, but not much more is known about the incident. It is briefly described in Arab MiGs vol.2, quoting contemporary AP report and an interview. Israeli sources also mention this incident, but as "inconclusive"

There was another incident exactly one year later (that's why I mixed up the dates ), when two Syrian MiG-21s tried to intercept recce Vautour, but were attacked by escorting Mirages. One Mig-21 was damaged (claimed shot down), while the other one fired two Atoll missiles and claimed one SD, although the missiles missed.

So now we have 1964 - 1999 as 100% confirmed (first and the last being 2-engine propeller aircraft)

knusel 6th August 2022 12:59

Re: The Mikoyan-Gurevich MiG-21 - the utmost longevity of scoring
 
Good morning Goran,

thanks for the interesting info.

Yes we have for the MiG-21
1964-1999 (33 years) confirmed
1963-2019 (56 years) claimed

For the F-16
1981-2020 (39 years) confirmed

For the Corsair
1943-1969 (26 years) confirmed

For the F/A-18
1991-2017 (26 years) confirmed

Regarding your idea about the continents, what do you think the Gloster Meteor?:
America: Ernesto Adradas scored a kill during the Argentine Coup Attempt June 1955
Europe: Tony Jennings (616. Squadron) is supposed to have scored a confirmed air victory in a jet in WW2
Africa: Aharon Yoeli scored a kill above El Arish which is in Egypt
Asia: William Simmonds scored a kill in the Korean War
Australia-Oceania: I think no jet kills were ever scored above this continent

Cheers,

Michael

GoranA 6th August 2022 19:15

Re: The Mikoyan-Gurevich MiG-21 - the utmost longevity of scoring
 
Hello Michael


Sinai (El-Arish) is a bit of a moot point, most geographical references consider it a part of Asia


Nice find about Corsair and F/A-18


two more candidates for 20+ club - F-4 Phantom :1965 - 1988 (Iraqi Bell 214 shot down by Iranian F-4) and P-86 Sabre: 1950 - 1971 (Pakistani sabres)

knusel 7th August 2022 01:47

Re: The Mikoyan-Gurevich MiG-21 - the utmost longevity of scoring
 
Good evening Goran,

you're right. Politically the Sinai peninsula is in Africa but geologically it is in Asia and a continent is a geological structure, not a political.

Do you know Tony Jennings ?
http://www.aces.safarikovi.org/victo...llied-jet.html

Cheers,

Michael

Franek Grabowski 7th August 2022 18:02

Re: The Mikoyan-Gurevich MiG-21 - the utmost longevity of scoring
 
It seems the last recorded score for F-4E was on 2.09.1994, when Greek aircraft downed a Turkish F-4E South of Santorini. This gives 29 years. Theoretically, both MiG-21s and F-4s remain in service, so may improve the score, but I think it is slim. F-16s are very much operational, though a tad bit different from original version, so they are likely to score again, especially as rumours of delivery to Ukraine will materialise.

GoranA 7th August 2022 19:35

Re: The Mikoyan-Gurevich MiG-21 - the utmost longevity of scoring
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by knusel (Post 321815)
Good evening Goran,

you're right. Politically the Sinai peninsula is in Africa but geologically it is in Asia and a continent is a geological structure, not a political.

Do you know Tony Jennings ?
http://www.aces.safarikovi.org/victo...llied-jet.html

Cheers,

Michael



Thank you for info about Jennings, I have only general knowledge about Meteor operations during WW2. Still interesting to see "forced to land" type of victory in WW2

GoranA 7th August 2022 19:38

Re: The Mikoyan-Gurevich MiG-21 - the utmost longevity of scoring
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Franek Grabowski (Post 321833)
It seems the last recorded score for F-4E was on 2.09.1994, when Greek aircraft downed a Turkish F-4E South of Santorini. This gives 29 years. Theoretically, both MiG-21s and F-4s remain in service, so may improve the score, but I think it is slim. F-16s are very much operational, though a tad bit different from original version, so they are likely to score again, especially as rumours of delivery to Ukraine will materialise.


Hello Franek

Do you have any reference about that Turkish F-4 loss ? The only reference I was able to find is J.J.Šafařik quoting one Nicholas Tselepidis. I would probably count it as "claimed".

Regards, Goran

knusel 7th August 2022 23:09

Re: The Mikoyan-Gurevich MiG-21 - the utmost longevity of scoring
 
Good evening Goran,

Jan Šafařik's website categorizes the 2Sep1994 incident as friendly fire.
http://www.aces.safarikovi.org/victo...e-post.ww2.pdf

Cheers,

Michael

Franek Grabowski 8th August 2022 16:12

Re: The Mikoyan-Gurevich MiG-21 - the utmost longevity of scoring
 
On the list I see it as a legit victory against TAF, though it may have been FF incident, indeed.

knusel 8th August 2022 21:35

Re: The Mikoyan-Gurevich MiG-21 - the utmost longevity of scoring
 
Have a look at the footnotes on page 3.


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 15:59.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.2
Copyright ©2000 - 2023, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©2004 - 2018, 12oclockhigh.net