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-   -   The Mikoyan-Gurevich MiG-21 - the utmost longevity of scoring (http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/showthread.php?t=62352)

knusel 30th July 2022 22:29

The Mikoyan-Gurevich MiG-21 - the utmost longevity of scoring
 
Good evening Gentlemen,

I believe that the Mikoyan-Gurevich scored kills over a longer period than any other plane in history.
The earliest shootdown that I know of (drones excluded) was when the Vietnamese claimed an F-105D on 7Jun1966.
The latest shootdown that I know of was when on 27Feb2019 a Pakistani Air Force F-16 fighter jet was shot down by Indian air defence forces in Rajouri sector of Jammu region.
A period of 52 years, 8 months and 20 days. It's virtually impossible that any plane has superseded that record.
Unfortunately, I don't know the names of the pilots who claimed those two shootdowns. Does anybody of you ?

Cheers,

Michael

Franek Grabowski 2nd August 2022 16:22

Re: The Mikoyan-Gurevich MiG-21 - the utmost longevity of scoring
 
The last kill is by Group Captain Abhinandan Varthaman but this seems bogus. The information appeared quite a while after the shot down of Varthaman who was captured, and no convincing evidence has been ever produced. For me it looks like a propaganda action.

knusel 2nd August 2022 23:17

Re: The Mikoyan-Gurevich MiG-21 - the utmost longevity of scoring
 
Good evening Franek,

thanks for the name which is a good starting point for me to investigate the matter further. You're right: a modern F-16 shot down by a vintage jet seems hard to believe.

What do you think about the 10 August 1999, when a Pakistan Breguet Atlantic was shot down by two Indian Air Force MiG-21's ?

Cheers,

Michael

Stig Jarlevik 3rd August 2022 00:31

Re: The Mikoyan-Gurevich MiG-21 - the utmost longevity of scoring
 
Franek

While beyond my real interest you say the last claim was by G/C Varthaman.
In the next sentence you indicate Varthaman was the one shot down and captured.

Which way is it?

Cheers
Stig

Franek Grabowski 3rd August 2022 16:30

Re: The Mikoyan-Gurevich MiG-21 - the utmost longevity of scoring
 
The MiG-21 was Bison, ie. with upgraded avionics to pretty modern standards. So not a looser as it may seem.
The exchange of fire was more less as follows. PAF performed an attack on targets behind LOC in Kashmir. IAF scarmbled to intercept the formation and G/C Varthaman went too deep into enemy territory and was downed by F-16. Fortunately he ejected, was a little mauled by locals before rescued by the Pak Army, got a cuppa and few days later was returned. Few weeks later it was claimed by India that G/C Varthaman shot down an F-16 before he was downed himself. Radar screens were produced to substantiate the claim but Lockheed denied any F-16 being lost (they have them under control). Actually no evidence that G/C Varthaman ever managed to fire at anything. On the opposite there was a PAF claim for Su-35, also unsubstantiated.
I know nothing about Atlantic incident.
MiG-21s are operated by few air forces, so there are very slim chances for the type to score again.

Stig Jarlevik 3rd August 2022 17:11

Re: The Mikoyan-Gurevich MiG-21 - the utmost longevity of scoring
 
Thanks for the explanation Franek

Cheers
Stig

GoranA 3rd August 2022 21:48

Re: The Mikoyan-Gurevich MiG-21 - the utmost longevity of scoring
 
If we ignore (yet) unsubstantiated Varthaman claim and consider 100% confirmed Atlantique from 1999 as the last, that would make 33 years span for MiG-21 (there is also even more dubious Syrian claim from 1964 for Israeli Mystere)

F-16 has 39 years between Rafi Berkovich' Mi-8 over Zahle in April '81 and Syrian L-39 over Idlib in March 2020, shot down by Turkish AF


What about geographical distribution of scoring? Are F-16, MiG-21 and Mirage F-1 the only airplanes with shotdowns over 3 continents, or are there any other candidates?

knusel 3rd August 2022 22:26

Re: The Mikoyan-Gurevich MiG-21 - the utmost longevity of scoring
 
Good evening Gentlemen,

very interesting.
Can you tell me names of the pilots who shot down the Atlantic in 1999 or the Syrian L-39 in 2020 ?

The P-38 scored above 5 continents:
http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/showth...ight=continent
The P-40, too:
http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/showth...ll+p-40&page=2

Cheers,


Michael

GoranA 4th August 2022 01:54

Re: The Mikoyan-Gurevich MiG-21 - the utmost longevity of scoring
 
Ok , I was thinking about post WW2, but still good to know :)...


Regarding 1999 Atlantique shot down - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prashant_Kumar_Bundela

For the turkish victory much less is known, which is logical, considering that it is an ongoing conflict and the pilot is still in service (some hints that aircraft was from 192 filo). More is known about the victim - crew members were Major Hussam Mayhoub (KIA) and Col. Ammar al-Boodi (rescued)

knusel 4th August 2022 15:42

Re: The Mikoyan-Gurevich MiG-21 - the utmost longevity of scoring
 
Hello Goran,

I've found the following entry for the first MiG-21 kill:
https://warisboring.com/in-1964-the-...n-oil-company/

Can you tell me if the dubious Syrian claim from 1964 for an Israeli Mystere was earlier ?

Have a nice Thursday,

Michael

GoranA 6th August 2022 02:09

Re: The Mikoyan-Gurevich MiG-21 - the utmost longevity of scoring
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by knusel (Post 321717)
Hello Goran,

I've found the following entry for the first MiG-21 kill:
https://warisboring.com/in-1964-the-...n-oil-company/

Can you tell me if the dubious Syrian claim from 1964 for an Israeli Mystere was earlier ?

Have a nice Thursday,

Michael




Hello Michael


Yes, it does seem that the C-82 in 1964 was the first victim for Mig-21

http://baaa-acro.sindev.ch/crash/cra...ndria-2-killed

The incident with the claimed Mystere happened on 13.11.1963 during clashes between Israel and Syria along the Jordan river. Two Syrian Mig-21 attacked one of the Israeli formations and claimed an aircraft, but not much more is known about the incident. It is briefly described in Arab MiGs vol.2, quoting contemporary AP report and an interview. Israeli sources also mention this incident, but as "inconclusive"

There was another incident exactly one year later (that's why I mixed up the dates ), when two Syrian MiG-21s tried to intercept recce Vautour, but were attacked by escorting Mirages. One Mig-21 was damaged (claimed shot down), while the other one fired two Atoll missiles and claimed one SD, although the missiles missed.

So now we have 1964 - 1999 as 100% confirmed (first and the last being 2-engine propeller aircraft)

knusel 6th August 2022 12:59

Re: The Mikoyan-Gurevich MiG-21 - the utmost longevity of scoring
 
Good morning Goran,

thanks for the interesting info.

Yes we have for the MiG-21
1964-1999 (33 years) confirmed
1963-2019 (56 years) claimed

For the F-16
1981-2020 (39 years) confirmed

For the Corsair
1943-1969 (26 years) confirmed

For the F/A-18
1991-2017 (26 years) confirmed

Regarding your idea about the continents, what do you think the Gloster Meteor?:
America: Ernesto Adradas scored a kill during the Argentine Coup Attempt June 1955
Europe: Tony Jennings (616. Squadron) is supposed to have scored a confirmed air victory in a jet in WW2
Africa: Aharon Yoeli scored a kill above El Arish which is in Egypt
Asia: William Simmonds scored a kill in the Korean War
Australia-Oceania: I think no jet kills were ever scored above this continent

Cheers,

Michael

GoranA 6th August 2022 19:15

Re: The Mikoyan-Gurevich MiG-21 - the utmost longevity of scoring
 
Hello Michael


Sinai (El-Arish) is a bit of a moot point, most geographical references consider it a part of Asia


Nice find about Corsair and F/A-18


two more candidates for 20+ club - F-4 Phantom :1965 - 1988 (Iraqi Bell 214 shot down by Iranian F-4) and P-86 Sabre: 1950 - 1971 (Pakistani sabres)

knusel 7th August 2022 01:47

Re: The Mikoyan-Gurevich MiG-21 - the utmost longevity of scoring
 
Good evening Goran,

you're right. Politically the Sinai peninsula is in Africa but geologically it is in Asia and a continent is a geological structure, not a political.

Do you know Tony Jennings ?
http://www.aces.safarikovi.org/victo...llied-jet.html

Cheers,

Michael

Franek Grabowski 7th August 2022 18:02

Re: The Mikoyan-Gurevich MiG-21 - the utmost longevity of scoring
 
It seems the last recorded score for F-4E was on 2.09.1994, when Greek aircraft downed a Turkish F-4E South of Santorini. This gives 29 years. Theoretically, both MiG-21s and F-4s remain in service, so may improve the score, but I think it is slim. F-16s are very much operational, though a tad bit different from original version, so they are likely to score again, especially as rumours of delivery to Ukraine will materialise.

GoranA 7th August 2022 19:35

Re: The Mikoyan-Gurevich MiG-21 - the utmost longevity of scoring
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by knusel (Post 321815)
Good evening Goran,

you're right. Politically the Sinai peninsula is in Africa but geologically it is in Asia and a continent is a geological structure, not a political.

Do you know Tony Jennings ?
http://www.aces.safarikovi.org/victo...llied-jet.html

Cheers,

Michael



Thank you for info about Jennings, I have only general knowledge about Meteor operations during WW2. Still interesting to see "forced to land" type of victory in WW2

GoranA 7th August 2022 19:38

Re: The Mikoyan-Gurevich MiG-21 - the utmost longevity of scoring
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Franek Grabowski (Post 321833)
It seems the last recorded score for F-4E was on 2.09.1994, when Greek aircraft downed a Turkish F-4E South of Santorini. This gives 29 years. Theoretically, both MiG-21s and F-4s remain in service, so may improve the score, but I think it is slim. F-16s are very much operational, though a tad bit different from original version, so they are likely to score again, especially as rumours of delivery to Ukraine will materialise.


Hello Franek

Do you have any reference about that Turkish F-4 loss ? The only reference I was able to find is J.J.Šafařik quoting one Nicholas Tselepidis. I would probably count it as "claimed".

Regards, Goran

knusel 7th August 2022 23:09

Re: The Mikoyan-Gurevich MiG-21 - the utmost longevity of scoring
 
Good evening Goran,

Jan Šafařik's website categorizes the 2Sep1994 incident as friendly fire.
http://www.aces.safarikovi.org/victo...e-post.ww2.pdf

Cheers,

Michael

Franek Grabowski 8th August 2022 16:12

Re: The Mikoyan-Gurevich MiG-21 - the utmost longevity of scoring
 
On the list I see it as a legit victory against TAF, though it may have been FF incident, indeed.

knusel 8th August 2022 21:35

Re: The Mikoyan-Gurevich MiG-21 - the utmost longevity of scoring
 
Have a look at the footnotes on page 3.

Franek Grabowski 9th August 2022 19:14

Re: The Mikoyan-Gurevich MiG-21 - the utmost longevity of scoring
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by knusel (Post 321887)
Have a look at the footnotes on page 3.

Ah, mistook the notes. Still a kill, is not it?

knusel 9th August 2022 23:43

Re: The Mikoyan-Gurevich MiG-21 - the utmost longevity of scoring
 
Hmm...I'm inclined not to count that as a kill.


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