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-   -   Late war Bf 109 pictures source (http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/showthread.php?t=27108)

Marc-André Haldimann 26th September 2011 21:27

Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
Hi there gang,

I started some ten months ago to reference and put online all known late war Bf 109 pictures which Werk Nummer are known; I took great care to give the reference when known.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/28092068@N03/

They are all sorted out by subtypes to the best of my knowledge. The result is not really impressive: less then 400 W.Nr. known machines are illustrated out of the 10'000+ built. This leaves plenty of room for improvement, isn' it? All inputs are most welcome.

Finally, if you do feel a copyright has been infringed, please let me know and I will remove the pics from public view.

Cheers
Marc

Pilot 26th September 2011 23:31

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
Nice image of black Bf109, do you have any more info?

veltro 27th September 2011 23:19

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
Great and interesting work.

I've tried to contribute with a few comments/corrections on photographs of ANR aircraft.

Marc-André Haldimann 28th September 2011 07:22

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
Caro Ferdinando,

Thanks so much for your appreciation and highly valued input. Given time and cross-expertise, I hope that this site will evolve in a an constantly updated quick reference open source for all researchers.

Grazie mille
Marc

Marc-André Haldimann 28th September 2011 07:41

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Pilot (Post 134854)
Nice image of black Bf109, do you have any more info?

Dobro Pilot,

Which particular plane are you thinking of?

Cheers
Marc

Pilot 28th September 2011 10:17

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
Thank you Marc for attention :) This image:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/2809206...in/photostream

http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5209/...c4b8c875_b.jpg

Under nose look to be bottom color but rest look like black. Too bad scan so nothing can be stated with absolute accuracy, depending of the film features this could be also red :) (I don't think that but...)

DeMePhi 28th September 2011 12:17

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
Interesting picture. Plane seems to have some kind of tailband. JG 300 red band?

Should be a great model then: black plane, red tailband and yellow cowl...

Some rambling while enjoying my lunch...

Best regards,

Philippe

Pilot 29th September 2011 08:13

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
Quote:

Bf 109 G-6/AS W.Nr. 166 318 "Gelbe 7", 3./JG 3, Burg, before 28 August 1944. Prien and Stemmer 1997, p. 466.
To regret number seven can not be seen, maybe covered by wing?

Marc-André Haldimann 29th September 2011 08:46

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
Dobro Pilot,

Yes, I see now the picture. Jochen Prien could help us along here, as he captioned the picture in his excellent book on III./JG 3.

IMHO, beware interpreting it as another all black machine: "Gelbe 7" is taken against the sun; thus it could be also one of those rare overall RLM 82 or RLM 83 machines as known for the ERLA built G-10's in the 151 xxx W.Nr range.

Cheers
Marc

Pilot 29th September 2011 10:21

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
Thank you very much Marc :)

Cpt_Farrel 1st October 2011 23:40

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Marc-André Haldimann (Post 134949)
Dobro Pilot,

Yes, I see now the picture. Jochen Prien could help us along here, as he captioned the picture in his excellent book on III./JG 3.

IMHO, beware interpreting it as another all black machine: "Gelbe 7" is taken against the sun; thus it could be also one of those rare overall RLM 82 or RLM 83 machines as known for the ERLA built G-10's in the 151 xxx W.Nr range.

Cheers
Marc

First off, great collection! I'll be browsing it with great interest.

August 1944 is too early for the Erla-built G-10's I think. The earliest example in dark camo that I know of is Yellow 5 of JG300 and it was photographed in December 1944.

Pilot 2nd October 2011 08:12

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
Cpt Farrel- there is also sample image from Smithsonian Institute which is all black.

Cpt_Farrel 2nd October 2011 11:17

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
I known of the all black Bf109G-6/AS that was published in the Luftwaffe im Focus series a few years back but I'm not sure whether this aircraft is similar.

Regarding the JG3 aircraft, The contrast in the photo is very high and the propblades that would have been RLM70 looks very black as well so it could be a dark camoflagecolor instead of black.

Cheers! / Anders

Pilot 2nd October 2011 12:38

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
Possible about JG3 machine ;)

Marc-André Haldimann 2nd October 2011 19:50

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
Hi there Anders and Srecko,

Here are the picture I know of for those all RLM 83 G-10 machines:

1. W.Nr. 150 119
http://www.flickr.com/photos/2809206...57625208099917
http://www.flickr.com/photos/2809206...57625208099917

2. W.Nr. 152 016
http://www.flickr.com/photos/2809206...57625208099917

3. W.Nr. 152 3.3
http://www.flickr.com/photos/2809206...57625208099917

4. W.Nr. unknown
http://www.flickr.com/photos/2809206...57625208099917

Cheers
Marc

Pilot 2nd October 2011 22:00

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
Quote:

2. W.Nr. 152 016, 3. W.Nr. 152 3.3, 4. W.Nr. unknown
This photo is private.

Can you change this please?

Marc-André Haldimann 2nd October 2011 22:23

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
Done!

Cheers
Marc

Pilot 2nd October 2011 22:39

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
Thank you :) Number 3 is excellent and no. 4 is still private (sorry for complains :( )

Marc-André Haldimann 2nd October 2011 23:08

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
Got it!

Cheers
Marc

Pilot 3rd October 2011 06:58

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
Thank you very much Marc, collection is so impressive and nice. Best part is that you have put credit on each one so visitor could do further search for publication. Last image is this one (no.4) I have seen as Smithsonian image and it look like all black machine. Any thoughts?

Cheers :)

Marc-André Haldimann 3rd October 2011 11:02

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
Dobro Srecko,

Thanks for your praise. The colour shot of this G-10 does not convey what a black and white picture does show: an overall RLM 83 camouflage with probably natural metal wings undersurfaces, like W.Nr. 152 3.3.

The G-10 colour shot was taken at Grafenwöhr airfield, in May 1945. I wil try to put my hand again on the b/w photograph and post it.

Cheers
Marc

Pilot 3rd October 2011 11:56

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
Thank you Marc- all clear :)

Oberst 3rd October 2011 16:08

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
The Me109G-10 "Gigi" with the small fin IMO is "Black 7" not "White 11" I have a very clear photo (ie: neutral contrast) and there's no hint of an white eleven. I beleive, (like Me109G-10 "white 11, Rosemarie") this is also a JG 51 machine.

Otherwise a very nice album, thanks for posting it! =)

Cpt_Farrel 3rd October 2011 16:24

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Marc-André Haldimann (Post 135111)
Dobro Srecko,

Thanks for your praise. The colour shot of this G-10 does not convey what a black and white picture does show: an overall RLM 83 camouflage with probably natural metal wings undersurfaces, like W.Nr. 152 3.3.

The G-10 colour shot was taken at Grafenwöhr airfield, in May 1945. I wil try to put my hand again on the b/w photograph and post it.

Cheers
Marc

I believe that at least some of these aircraft might actually have been painted in two dark colors alhough with low contrast - perhaps getting even lower due to thin applications. The reason is that the black and white photo showing the G-10 at Grafenwöhr has faint lines demarcation lines that could just have been various thickness of paint, but then there's similar lines in similar places on other aircraft opening for the possibility of a pattern of some sort.

/ Anders

EDIT: I updated my old profile of this aircraft. The choice of colors are just a theory but it looks the part in black and white. When I looked at the colorphoto of this aircraft I noticed from the wing leading edges that it seems to have had RLM75/83 wings.
http://www.cptfarrels.com/blog/Bf109...doned_1024.jpg

Pilot 3rd October 2011 17:41

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
Cpt Farell- profile of the same machine is published in Bf109G/K Horst Serie in France

Cpt_Farrel 3rd October 2011 20:11

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
For comparison I did another profile for my blog based on a photo found at Neil Pages blog a long time ago. The photo depicts the right hand side of an Erla built G-10 and shows what could be a camoflagepattern that would fit nicely with the one seen on the left hand side of the "Grafenwöhr G-10".

Now I'll quit hi-jacking this thread, sorry... Got carried away. :)

http://www.cptfarrels.com/blog/Bf109...0JG11_1024.jpg

Marc-André Haldimann 3rd October 2011 21:20

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
Anders,

Thanks for your profiles. I concur for the Grafenwöhr machine, but not for W.Nr. 150 119 and 152 3.3. Those are obviously overall RLM 83 machines.

As for "Gigi", I jet can't remember posting it: getting old those days;-))

Cheers
Marc

Cpt_Farrel 3rd October 2011 21:33

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
150 119 is hard to judge since the photo is a little bleached on it's own but you might be right. 152 3.3. might just have some different shades though. Look at the area on the front half of the enginecowling for example.

I think it will be impossible to be certain of any of these schemes but at least we can be certain that it's Erla built aircraft we're dealing with. :)

Cheers! / Anders

Rasmussen 3rd October 2011 21:38

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
W.Nr. 150 119 didn't exist.

Regards
Rasmussen

Marc-André Haldimann 3rd October 2011 23:14

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
Anders,

I will look at 152 3.3 with a calm head... ASAP.

Rasmussen,

Thanks for your input; may I ask for your source?

Thanks in advance
Marc

Oberst 4th October 2011 00:59

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
1 Attachment(s)
Quote:

Originally Posted by Marc-André Haldimann (Post 135137)
Anders,

As for "Gigi", I jet can't remember posting it: getting old those days;-))

Cheers
Marc

This one. it was marked as 'white 11' but I believe its 'black 7'.

Marc-André Haldimann 4th October 2011 18:13

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
Thanks Oberst, for posting it.

I remember having seen it, but in which publication?

Anders and Srecko,

Flicking through Hideki Noro's excellent "LO+ST" (2009), I found a"huge" bunch of all dark Bf 109's pics, unfortunately without known W.Nr., as, for that matter, without much details:

Bf 109 G-6 or G-14 "Blaue 51", maybe found in Lechfeld, Summer 1945. Noro 2009, p. 169.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/2809206...in/photostream
http://www.flickr.com/photos/2809206...in/photostream

Bf 109 G-10 W.Nr. 15x xxx "Gelbe 17", Salzburg, Summer 1945. Noro 2009, p. 147.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/2809206...in/photostream
http://www.flickr.com/photos/2809206...in/photostream

Bf 109 G-10 W.Nr. 15x xxx "Weisse 6", 13./JG 301, Summer 1945. Noro 2009, p. 175.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/2809206...in/photostream

Bf 109 G-14/AS, W.Nr. unknown, "Schwarze 473", Fürth 1945. Noro 2009, p. 112.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/2809206...in/photostream

Bf 109 G, W.Nr. unknown, "Schwarze 51", Salzburg 1945. Noro 2009, p. 148. Scan is bad but in the book it's definitely an overall RLM 83 camouflage.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/2809206...in/photostream

And as the devil has it, Kemon 01 just posted today in his photo stream on Flickr a great shot of an overturned late-war Bf 109 G "Schwarze 1", as usual without any indication of date and place:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/2809206...in/photostream

This pretty much rounds up what I know about those overall RLM 83 camouflaged machines. A last one strikes my mind: Bf 109 G-10 W.Nr. 152 xxx "Gelbe 11" found at Deutsch Brod in 1945, and published by Janda and Poruba (2004), Messerschmitt Bf 109s of JG 52 in Deutsch Brod, JaPo, p. 46 - 53.

All told, I'm surprised myself by the comparatively large photographic evidence for those out of the main stream camouflaged machines. One wonders if all were produced by ERLA?

Cheers
Marc

Oberst 4th October 2011 19:02

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
Schiffer Publishing - 1992 - Messerschmitt Bf109 F, G, and K. An Illustrated Study - Jochen Prien & Peter Rodeike - ISBN 0887404243

As for Bf 109 G-10 W.Nr. 152 xxx "Gelbe 11" I would consider it a very safe bet the most is not all with simular camouflage schemes were produced by Erla.
But I do not think it was a solid RLM 83.

Rasmussen 4th October 2011 19:54

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Marc-André Haldimann (Post 135149)
Thanks for your input; may I ask for your source?

Nearly 30 years of research exclusivly on Erla ... your correct W.Nr. for this a/c was 151 965. You find an correct colour profile in the Lorant/ Goyat - book, volume 2, page 194 ... and ... none of the Erla a/c's had an "all - in - all" RLM 83 - camouflage because none of the Erla a/c's had RLM 83 on fuselage (if it was delivered direct by factory and not repainted somewhere).

Best regards
Rasmussen

Cpt_Farrel 4th October 2011 19:58

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
I'm certain that all the dark colored G-10's were Erla produced but I don't think that the earlier G's in dark camo are from the same origin. I think they might be from recycled airframes from older aircraft, put together at a repairshop and given a quick dark camo to blend the parts in, not by Erla though.

Unique for these dark Erla G-10's is that there was NO RLM 76 on the entire fuselage, the dark colors went all around. The wings were mostly natural metal with only wooden parts painted RLM76. That is totally in line with the latest RLM instructions for camoflage issued during the war. I got to read up on it but as I recall, these instructions included that the two upper colors were to be applied in a cloudy pattern and be taken down the sides directly over natural metal. A good description of my interpretation of these aircraft actually. :)

Black 1 is a Bf109G-2 flown in the east by JG54 and repainted in their various greens.

EDIT: Rasmussen posted while I wrote so additionally, what's your take on the colors if not 83? What about the more traditionally camoflaged G-10's from Erla, do you believe them to have been 74/75 up to the end?

Cheers! / Anders

Pilot 4th October 2011 20:07

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
Thank you Marc, I have in meantime arranged few profiles, one top side is visible on our Facebook page

Oberst 4th October 2011 20:16

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Cpt_Farrel (Post 135217)
EDIT: Rasmussen posted while I wrote so additionally, what's your take on the colors if not 83? What about the more traditionally camoflaged G-10's from Erla, do you believe them to have been 74/75 up to the end?

Cheers! / Anders

Good question thats tough to answer. Kind of like Me109G-10 Wr.N. 130 297 flown by Horst Petzschler. There are big disagreements on whether it was painted RLM 74/75 or RLM 75/82.

Pilot 4th October 2011 20:20

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
Quote:

There are big disagreements on whether it was painted RLM 74/75 or RLM 75/82.
Oberst- any preserved sample or color image? Testimonial of workers or operators.... ?

Oberst 4th October 2011 20:28

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Pilot (Post 135221)
Oberst- any preserved sample or color image? Testimonial of workers or operators.... ?

No colour images I know of. Nor do I know of any Testimonials. Here is a very good site of it: http://www.forcedlandingcollection.s...136-Bf109.html Even Claes Sundin has two different profiles, one in 74/75 and the other in 75/82(83?).

Pilot 4th October 2011 20:31

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
Thank you Oberst :)


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