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-   -   Late war Bf 109 pictures source (http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/showthread.php?t=27108)

Marc-André Haldimann 11th March 2013 22:07

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
Hi floks,

I just found today two pictures of a Bf 109 G-6 (?) W.Nr. unknown "Rote 21" emerging from lake Ammer (Ammersee), near the locality of Buch. The date of its ditching is unknown, as the unit which is only surmized as being an 2./EJG or a 2./JG 1xx fighter school unit.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/2809206...in/photostream
http://www.flickr.com/photos/2809206...n/photostream/

Any indication about unit and date of ditching would be great; if W.Nr. available, that would be magic!

Thanks in advance
Marc

Nick Beale 11th March 2013 23:52

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Marc-André Haldimann (Post 163548)
http://www.flickr.com/photos/2809206...57625536800422 W.Nr. 202 113

This said, no way to be 100% sure... And thanks, Nick, for the lead about the absence/presence of MG 131's. I wasn't aware of that.

Cheers
Marc

My feeling on 202113 is that it would probably have been "red 7", rather than green. When Tom Hitchcock first published that photo and interpreted the colour, he hadn't made the connection with the QMG loss report, so didn't have a unit for the machine. For the record: 13.02.45, 2./NAG 13, Bf 109 G-6 W.Nr. 202113: Bruchlandung inf. Motorstörung, 40%.

When it flew Fw 190s in the south of France (August 1944), 2./NAG 13 used black numbers with a red outline. It returned to action in early October with Bf 109s and, if they dropped the previous practice, I'd see a change to red number/white outline as more likely than green/white outline.

I picked up on the reduced armament from reports of aircraft accepted by France-based units from the Guyancourt workshops. Examples here and here. It didn't apply in every case though.

Marc-André Haldimann 12th March 2013 00:03

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
Your insight is much appreciated, Nick! Especially glad about W.Nr. 202113's correct tactical number color.

Marc

Mack_jackson 18th March 2013 13:27

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by DeMePhi (Post 134921)
Interesting picture. Plane seems to have some kind of tailband. JG 300 red band?

Should be a great model then: black plane, red tailband and yellow cowl...

Some rambling while enjoying my lunch...

Best regards,

Philippe

Yes it is very interesting picture..! i like this photography, i think its body color is blue, and white, tail-band's color is black and cowl's color is cyan. I think it is 1923's photo maybe.

ouidjat 22nd March 2013 08:37

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
Hi Marc and Guys,

Marc I cannot agree with (seller's) caption you put with the three following pictures:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/2809206...in/photostream
http://www.flickr.com/photos/2809206...in/photostream
http://www.flickr.com/photos/2809206...in/photostream

I./JG 26 left Orel in June and was already equiped with Fw190.
Kuban is like a province not a place.
I did write a comment under one of the pictures. Stab. II./JG 52 suits me better.
I'd like comments please.

Cheers, Franck.

Marc-André Haldimann 22nd March 2013 12:56

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
Hi Franck, I tentatively follow you; I won't have access to my library before two weeks, I'll check out afterwards.

Thanks for your always appreciated input
Marc

Marc-André Haldimann 22nd March 2013 21:44

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
A brilliant new find thanks to Peter over in LEMB, post no 71: http://www.luftwaffe-experten.org/fo...opic=14798&hl=

http://www.flickr.com/photos/2809206...in/photostream
This is a II./JG52 Bf109K-4 in the typical WNr.332000-335241 block Mtt camouflage pattern. Amazing, truly amazing!

The only other known machine with the black tulip motive on the nose so far is Bf109K-4 WNr.332529 "KleineSchwarze4", ?/JG 52, Deutsch Brod, published in Poruba and Mol 2000, p.76.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/2809206...7625380126592/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/2809206...7625380126592/

His find shows a different machine as WNr.332529, as evidenced by the camouflage pattern with the RLM81/RLM82/RLM76 low demarcation line on the fuselage.

Cheers
Marc

RolandF 23rd March 2013 16:17

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
Not to mention the Fahrwerksrestabdeckung of the K-4.
Rarely seen so clear and from such an angle.
Great find.
Any idea about the unit? Staff JG 52? Staff II./JG 52?

Servus

Roland

Marc-André Haldimann 23rd March 2013 19:57

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
Good question Roland,

Can't tell; hopefully somebody more knowledgeable will give us the good lead... Still amazed as how such unique pictures keep surfacing...

All the best
Marc

unikum 25th March 2013 13:33

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
http://www.ebay.de/itm/Foto-Flugzeug...item2ec7206ddd

http://www.ebay.de/itm/Foto-Flugzeug...item2ec72070ad

http://www.ebay.de/itm/Foto-Flugzeug...item4171cf488f

ouidjat 25th March 2013 13:43

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
Hi Unikum,
http://www.ebay.de/itm/Foto-Flugzeug...item4171cf488f is a Bf 109 E!

Marc-André Haldimann 7th April 2013 19:31

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
Back from a field trip in Jordan, folks!

Thanks Unikum, your links are always appreciated. And sure, Franck, the legend of the Ebay seller was misleading and the Bf 109 E is much mauled;-))

And now for something new on my side:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/2809206...in/photostream

I just found this screen capture from a film offered for sale, thanks to pixpast.com. It is a hitherto unknown color film showing Bf 109 G-10 "Weisse 15", 1./JG ? It is obviously an Erla produced machine as the postion of its W.Nr. shows. Given the typical camouflage this plane is probably in the 490 xxx or 491 xxx W.Nr. range. Any ideas as to which unit and which airfield?

Thanks in advance
Marc

Marc-André Haldimann 11th April 2013 07:25

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
And a tremendous find, thanks to Peter D. Evans, over on LEMB:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/2809206...n/photostream/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/28092068@N03/8637750897/
Bf 109 K-4 W.Nr unknown "Weisse ?", 9./JG 4, Jüterbog-Damm (?), March 1945 (?).

Source: http://www.ebay.de/itm/Super-Privat-...-/160991999282
Any ideas as to the emblem seen on the engine cowling?

A real wow picture, the next one which will securely break again the 1'000 Euros barrier...
Marc

ouidjat 11th April 2013 14:20

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
:D hello Marc,

Emblem is quite amazing; normally it's the following one but, still I have doubts I think it doesn't match that 100%.
Hence, I prefer to let you judge ...

For the price ... well it's a little bit blurred but who knows?

Cheers, Franck.

PS: Pictures in attachment come from an old LEMB thread.

Marc-André Haldimann 11th April 2013 23:35

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
Salut Franck,

Thanks for those crisp and clear shots of the helmet emblem. The pic is too fuzzy to be sure of the emblem sported by this K-4, but it sure looks similar. Great to see altogether that emblems were still painted this late in the war... Not an uncommon practice, as we can see other emblems either for JG 53 as shown also by this machine:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/2809206...57625380126592
Bf 109 K-4 W.Nr. unknown "Gelbe 9", IV./JG 53, Germany, March 1945. Source: 644 Tank destroyer battalion website.

or the well known Neuruppin set of pictures showing JG 77 K-4's sporting their unit emblem...

Cheers
Marc

Marc-André Haldimann 12th April 2013 00:03

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
thanks to Peter over on LEMB, we have a real frenzy of new Bf 109 K-4 pics:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/2809206...in/photostream
http://www.ebay.com/itm/ORIGINAL-WWI...-/111050103384

From what I gather, two Bf 109 K-4's. The one in the foreground is "Schwarze ?", 6./JG ?; the second seen from the left rear three quarters is devoid of any markings and sports the camouflage pattern characteristic for the W.Nr. 331 xxx - 332 xxx blocks. Any idea about the location?

Cheers
Marc

ouidjat 12th April 2013 01:27

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
Hi Marc,

scroll down as usual: BAD LIPPSPRINGE, GERMANY, 4/45. PHOTO TAKEN BY 95TH INFANTRY DIVISION GI AFTER BATTLE OF METZ.

Thanks for the picture Marc.
Who said "we aren't going to have new pictures!" ?

Just a question: Sure that the plane in foreground is a Bf 109 K-4????? It's blurred, we see nothing on wing BUT I see that the battery aperture in cockpit area is not squared, for me it's not: G-14/AS or G-10 but not a K-4.

Cheers, Franck.

Marc-André Haldimann 12th April 2013 09:00

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
Thanks, Franck, as ever. And I concur: seen in the daylight, "Schwarze 6" is an obvious Mtt built Bf 109 G-14/AS in the W.Nr. 78x xxx production batch.

Cheers
Marc

Marc-André Haldimann 12th April 2013 12:07

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
As for the Bf 109 K-4 "Gelbe 6", I've put on line a blow-up of this machine:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/2809206...in/photostream

Examining the rear fuselage, I've the conviction there is a light colored RV Band. Unfortunately partially blurred by the overlying clear plastic sheet, it is either a uniform light color, pointing towards 3./JG 3, or a three segmented light color band, pointing then towards either 3./JG 2 or 3./JG 300.

JG 2 can be pretty safely be excluded as it wasn't flying any Bf 109 K-4's. This leaves us with either JG 3 or JG 300. The uniform low tonality of the rear fuselage behind the Balkenkreuz points more towards a JG 3 white RV Band. Having just checked in Prien and Rodeike, only III./JG 3 did fly from 18 December 1944 onwards Bf 109 K-4's. Given the low contrast between yellow and white, there could be a III./Gruppe vertical bar, maybe to be discerned on the original. I would thus cautiously suggest a 11./JG 3 machine, without totally excluding one of the rare Bf 109 K-4's flown between March and April 1945 by III. or IV./JG 300.

Let's hope that the happy deep pocketed buyer of this pic will generously share the details of the rear fuselage;-))

Cheers
Marc

ouidjat 12th April 2013 14:15

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Marc-André Haldimann (Post 165004)
Thanks, Franck, as ever. And I concur: seen in the daylight, "Schwarze 6" is an obvious Mtt built Bf 109 G-14/AS in the W.Nr. 78x xxx production batch.
Cheers
Marc

Normal, You're my friend.
Believe me my hand was shaking with Ferdinando in rear guard since he was logged in at the same time. (Quite late for him!)
But it's OK; I'm quite satisfied.

Regards, Franck.

Marc-André Haldimann 12th April 2013 17:51

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
Thanks nonetheless, Franck!

It would be great to hear news and advices from Fernando too;-))

Maybe another occasion: again a new Bf 109 K-4 pic!
http://www.flickr.com/photos/2809206...in/photostream
Bf 109 K-4 W.Nr. 334 4.. "Braune 3", 5./JG 4, Skape near Sulechow, Poland, June 1945. Source: Collection Military Museum Swidnicza - Drzonow via Jet & Prop 3/09, p. 14.

This is really an incredible week for all Bf 109 K-4's aficionados...
Marc

one-o-nine 12th April 2013 20:39

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
1 Attachment(s)
Quote:

Originally Posted by ouidjat (Post 164956)
PS: Pictures in attachment come from an old LEMB thread.

... here in better resolution, cowling is still existing :D

ChristianK 12th April 2013 21:04

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
Hi all, and nice finds Marc!

This JG 4-aircraft in Sulechow (then Züllichau) is particularly interesting to me - is there any data available on this loss?

Regards,
Christian

ouidjat 12th April 2013 21:44

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by one-o-nine (Post 165035)
... here in better resolution, cowling is still existing :D

Nice 9o9!
Thanks! Where?...
And what about the OTHER emblem which is situated on the other side of this cowling? You have one, too?

Regards, Franck.

Marc-André Haldimann 12th April 2013 21:52

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
Hallo Christian,

Here is a scan of the published information I have, in Jet & Prop 3/09... There is an e-mail address;-)). Hopefully something more will be known by now.

Cheers
Marc

one-o-nine 12th April 2013 21:58

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
1 Attachment(s)
where? south of Germany ;)

here the emblem on the right side

"gräuslicher Socken" > "horrible sock"

actual origin / meaning is unknown

Marc-André Haldimann 12th April 2013 22:20

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
Thanks one-o-nine!

Marc

ChristianK 12th April 2013 23:25

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
Thank you Marc for the e-mail-hint. I will give it a try and post the results!

ouidjat 13th April 2013 06:03

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by one-o-nine (Post 165045)
where? south of Germany ;)

here the emblem on the right side

"gräuslicher Socken" > "horrible sock"

actual origin / meaning is unknown

Thanks 9-o-9!

OK, but what is that exactly?
A Bird? A "Strauss"? "Den Kopf in den Sand stecken"? And a bad word between Socken and stecken?
Strauss being pilot's name? (Got one Strauss and one Vogel in JG 4 but none of them linked with a Bf 109 K-4 ...)

Well well well; this is a true speculation I'm afraid :D.

Regards.

Falcon 13th April 2013 10:07

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
"gräuslich" (a very unusual word in the German language)
http://www.linguee.de/deutsch-englis...%E4uslich.html

The bird looks like the Road Runner...
http://www.allfreevectors.com/images...r%20002689.jpg

ouidjat 13th April 2013 10:45

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
Ah, I didn't remember that name in English: road runner, yes.
But we know that drawing through the popular cartoon; did that cartoon already exist, before WWII ??

Rasmussen 13th April 2013 12:09

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
The cartoon was born after the war (1947) so the road runner has nothing to do with our "ostrich" ... I'd think.

ouidjat 13th April 2013 12:41

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
Hello Rasmussen,

That's what I thought being lazy to check.
Though the cartoon road runner has nothing to do with the real bird too.
The ostrich suits me since I believe that the helmet's feather came from an ostrich bird.
It seems to me that our "ostrich" is lifting one leg up to back head and that the "beak" suits more or less with that bird's one.

... Hmmm, in fact I don't know, I'm just trying something ... desesperate!!!!!

Tschüss, Franck.

RolandF 13th April 2013 17:34

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
"gräuslich" - not an uncommon word in Southern Bavaria.
Maybe one hint to identify the pilot.
In colloquial Bavarian slang "Socken" is used to desribe a "bunch" of people; i.e. the pilot´s Staffel colleagues. And "gräuslich" is the contrary of "handsome"

Regards

Roland

ouidjat 13th April 2013 17:52

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
All in all: "Bad boys" Schwarm or Kette ... for instance?
... This is quite an explanation in fact. Thanks Roland. Left the "bird"!

Falcon 13th April 2013 21:28

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by ouidjat (Post 165069)
Ah, I didn't remember that name in English: road runner, yes.
But we know that drawing through the popular cartoon; did that cartoon already exist, before WWII ??

No, the Road Runner is from 1949... :-(
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wile_E....he_Road_Runner

ouidjat 18th April 2013 14:23

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
Hi Marc,

What the hell is going on?

John Beaman 18th April 2013 16:07

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by ouidjat (Post 165301)
Hi Marc,

What the hell is going on?

What is the point of your question? Let's be a little more specific.

Marc-André Haldimann 18th April 2013 22:24

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by ouidjat (Post 165301)
Hi Marc,

What the hell is going on?

Salut Franck?
Any issues? Listening, as always;-))

Cheers
Marc

ouidjat 19th April 2013 04:01

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
Salut Marc,

Your site stood with only one photo during all night! :confused: :( :mad:
I did care all links and thumbs preciously, (257 pages Word document!); no one was working.

It works this morning. :)

Cheers, Franck.


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