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-   -   Late war Bf 109 pictures source (http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/showthread.php?t=27108)

Marc-André Haldimann 6th August 2013 08:31

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
Hi there Gang,

Here, thanks to Peter D. Evans over on LEMB , a freshly found Bf 109 G-14 picture:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Shot-up-and-...-/271253003377

Two Bf 109 G can be seen. The front one is, given it's camouflage, a WNF built Bf 109 G-14, W.Nr. 51x xxx "Weisse 7", 1./JG 3 (note the thin red tailband behind the Balkenkreuz)
http://www.flickr.com/photos/28092068@N03/9444551601/

The second is a Mtt-Regensburg built Bf 109 G-14 W.Nr. 782 482 "Weisse 20" (?), 5./JG 3 (The thin red tailband is fully seen).
http://www.flickr.com/photos/2809206...n/photostream/

I./JG 3 and II./JG 3 ended up in May 1945 at Leck, near Hamburg. The seller of this picture also sports another pic of British soldiers of the Welsh Regiment, which 4 and 5 Battalion were effectively deployed at war's end in the area of Hamburg. It is thus probable that both planes were in effect found at Leck. Any confirmation would be highly appreciated!

Cheers
Marc

ouidjat 6th August 2013 14:33

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
Nice pictures Marc.

Marc-André Haldimann 6th August 2013 17:20

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
Thanks, Franck! Wishing to have one like this ever day;-))

Cheers
Marc

Marc-André Haldimann 1st September 2013 15:34

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
In the slowly building-up of the white triangle atop the rudder marking on some late-war Bf 109's, I just found this picture:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/28092068@N03/9645958710/

Pilot is said to be Oskar Wehner, place is next to Fulda, date April 1945. My guess is that this is a NAGr Bf 109 G-6/R2 or G-8. An confirmation/details most welcome!

Cheers
Marc

Marc-André Haldimann 5th September 2013 18:31

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
Hi folks,

Thanks to two great shots taken at Bayreuth-Bindlach by US Signal Corps after 14 April 1945, we have a new W.Nr.:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/28092068@N03/9677908457/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/2809206...n/photostream/
Bf 109 G-14 W.Nr. 463 196.

So far, I know of NAGr. Bromberg and its mixed complement of Bf 109 G-6/R2 and G-8. There is another picture of an abandoned Bf 109 K-4 from the W.Nr. 330 xxx - 331 xxx batch:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/2809206...57631646235608

Given it's yellow small tail band, this plane was affected to an unidentified Erg.JG. It is probably the same plane which can be seen still in its initial dispersal position on this pic, currently available on eBay (thanks Peter!):
http://www.flickr.com/photos/2809206...n/photostream/

Now we have this new Bf 109 G-14. Question: which were the units known to be stationed in Bayreuth-Bindlach in the Spring of 1945?

Thanks for your insights!
Marc

S Sheflin 5th September 2013 23:50

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
Hello Marc,

First I want to thank you for all of your hard work on these Bf109 photos.

Regarding the Bf109 wreck photographed at Bayreuth-Bindlach:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/28092068@N03/9677908457/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/2809206...n/photostream/

I commented earlier on this aircraft over on the LEMB. I am very interested in how you concluded that this aircraft was from the Erla-built 46XXXX series?

Please note that its Werknummer is applied in the mid-fin/rudder position (my designation = Position 3) in which one digit is on the fin and five are on the rudder. Also, visible under magnification is what I perceive as an extended tail wheel leg.

I did some research in my Bf109 database file. I have 847 Erla-produced Bf109G-14s in my files. Of those for which I have photos (admittedly not the majority), the vast majority have their WNrn. applied on their fin caps (my designation = Position 1). Exactly three had their Werknummern applied in Position 3. Further, when I filtered for Erla-built Bf109G-14s with tall tail wheel legs, I found only one:

Bf109G-14 WNr. 464380, 1+ Y, 5aSq. II°Gr.C., Magg. Bellagambi, Italy 1945.

In my opinion, and unless I have missed some evidence in the photo, it is more likely that this aircraft is an Erla-built Bf109G-10 from the 15XXXX or 49XXXX series.

Steve Sheflin

Marc-André Haldimann 6th September 2013 01:20

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
Steve,

First of all, many thanks for your praise...and your help! That's what my Flickr account is designed for: to share and build common benefit having a centralized and classified picture databank on an open base for all Bf 109's from the 1943 - 1945 time span.

As for the W.Nr. of the Erla W.Nr. built xxx 196, my conclusion after having blown up the image and fiddled around with contrast is that the third digit is a 3; this is the only numeral which fits what can be seen under the hanging camouflage net. This does exclude all Erla built Bf 109 G-10 in the 490xxx - 492xx batches and all W.Nr. 150xxx -152xxx as well.

This led me to an Erla built Bf 109 G-14, of which I do have five documented by pictures with their W.Nr. in your mid-rudder position (Position 3):

http://www.flickr.com/photos/2809206...7625539886908/
Bf 109 G-14 W.Nr. 464 362, unit unknown, Köthen, Germany, 15 April 1945. Source: Stockum Collection via stories.windmillpro.com. Please note that this one has also a tall tail wheel leg.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/2809206...57625539886908
Bf 109 G-14 W.Nr.464 863 "Rote 863", 2./JG 1xx, Germany, May 1945 Forsyth 2005, p. 278.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/2809206...7625539886908/
Bf 109 G-14/AS W.Nr. 465 381, unit and location unknown, Germany, April 1945. Source: 4th infantry Div, 8th Inf. Regiment via Facebook.com

http://www.flickr.com/photos/2809206...7625539886908/
Bf 109 G-14 W.Nr. 465 763 "Schwarze 9", Oblt. Erwin Günthner, 3./JG 52, Neisse-Stefansdorf, March 1945. Source: Flugzeug Classic 3. 2012, p. 18.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/2809206...7625539886908/
Bf 109 G-14 W.Nr. 465 765, II./JG 52, Deutsch Brod, May 1945. Source: http://www.asisbiz.com

W.Nr 463 196 would be thus the sixth case.


As for the long tail wheel leg, besides W.Nr. 464 380, I have also the above mentioned W.Nr. 464 362 and W.Nr. 464 642:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/2809206...57625539886908
Bf 109 G-14/AS W.Nr. 464 642 "Weisse 10", unit and location unknown, France (?), Summer 1945. Source: Collection Kees Mol.


One thing which I did not consider is that this could be a WNF built Bf 109 G-10. It could be considered, even if the highest recorded W.Nr. stops at 613 195 (II/JG 52, Neubiberg), according to Janda and Poruba 2004, p. 80. But no known occurrence of a tall tail wheel leg is known for WNF built Bf 109 G-10's...

There we stand, Steve. Not 100% sure but pretty confident.

Thanks again for your highly appreciated input
Marc

S Sheflin 6th September 2013 03:25

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
Marc,

I stand corrected and will update my database and photo files.

Thanks,

Steve Sheflin

S Sheflin 6th September 2013 03:42

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
Marc,

I stand corrected and will update my database and photo files.

Thanks,

Steve Sheflin

Rasmussen 6th September 2013 11:39

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
Dear Marc,

I'd guess your conclusions are not correct. Your mentioned W.Nr. 464862 (an typo in your text because windmillpro said 8 not 3), 464863, 465381, 465763 and x65765 (the first number isn't seen by my best will) are correct with the number in the middle of the rudder but not an 463196 (if the number is correct). This a/c had the number for sure on the spin cap. Unfortunately I can't see your flick-account (although I have my own account) so I can't check the other pictures ... because AS-machines in the 464xxx - and 465xxx - batch are very strange too ...

Best regards
Rasmussen

PhilippeDM 6th September 2013 12:03

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
Marc,

Did you notice the Fw 190 in the background of these pics? A RV band of 2 colors....
http://www.flickr.com/photos/28092068@N03/9677908457/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/2809206...n/photostream/

ouidjat 6th September 2013 12:59

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Marc-André Haldimann (Post 171949)
Hi folks,
Now we have this new Bf 109 G-14. Question: which were the units known to be stationed in Bayreuth-Bindlach in the Spring of 1945?

Thanks for your insights!
Marc

Hi Marc,

Insights? It's forbidden!.. Nothing...
But Eckersdorf, which is 6,5km west of Bayreuth, I. & II./JG 77.

Bayreuth is quoted for I./JG 52 in July 1940 (!), nothing else for what I know ...

Nick Beale 6th September 2013 15:28

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
Elements of SG 151 were there in February 1945 but they had Fw 190s.

Marc-André Haldimann 6th September 2013 17:50

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
Steve, you're welcome!

Jörn,

Thanks for your informations. One thing which should be considered is that the Bayreuth machine is actually W.Nr. 465 196. The small portion of the third digit to be seen does not exclude this option. I won't be in front of my laptop before Monday; I will have a closer look by then.

Cheers
Marc

Marc-André Haldimann 6th September 2013 17:52

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
Franck, Nick,

Thanks for your informations!

Much appreciated!
Marc

ouidjat 6th September 2013 19:55

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
You're welcome Marc,

Infortunately there's nothing readable before 196.

RolandF 7th September 2013 11:46

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
Salut Marc,
Is 465196 a proven WNr? According to my ref this Erla block commences with 465200, my lowest WNr being 465253

Servus

Roland

Rasmussen 7th September 2013 11:51

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
No --- the W.Nr.465916 didn't exist.

Regards
Rasmussen

Marc-André Haldimann 7th September 2013 13:22

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
Jörn,

Typo for 465196?

Marc

Rasmussen 7th September 2013 14:20

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
yes - 465196 didn't exist.

Marc-André Haldimann 7th September 2013 19:07

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
Danke Jörn!

So what options do we have? W.Nr. xxx196 position on the rudder is consistent either for Erla or for WNF.

In my opinion, WNF is a cold case because I never came across a single WNF built Bf 109 G-14 or G-10 with a long tail wheel leg.

This leaves us with Erla produced Bf109 G-10's and rarer seen G-14's. Considering the oil filler cap high position, plainly visible on the inner side of the engine cowling won't help us out: if I understand things correctly, Erla did use the 56 liters oil tank on their AS engines planes as well (Jörn, please correct me if I'm wrong).

I won't argue now about the tiny part of the third digit to be seen as I'm still off computer. Options left now are:
- either Bf 109 G-14/AS W.Nr. 464 196 (right W.Nr. position on the rudder and documented planes in that batch having a tall tail wheel leg).
- or an Erla Bf 109 G-10 in the 150xxx-152xxx or the 490xxx-491xxx batch.

Hopefully more arguments will show up;-))

Cheers
Marc

Rasmussen 7th September 2013 22:06

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Marc-André Haldimann (Post 172065)
- either Bf 109 G-14/AS W.Nr. 464 196 (right W.Nr. position on the rudder and documented planes in that batch having a tall tail wheel leg).

Not an option --- the W.Nr.464196 wasn't an G-14/AS but an normal G-14, the position of the W.Nr. is wrong and the a/c had in all probability not an long tail wheel leg.

Regards
Rasmussen

Marc-André Haldimann 7th September 2013 23:31

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
Ok Jörn,

So this is after all an Erla G-10; I'll tackle the third digit by Monday;-)).

Many thanks!
Marc

D.B. Andrus 8th September 2013 22:05

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
Gun trough looks to be the style commonly used on the Erla G-10 refined cowling.

Cheers,

D.B.

Marc-André Haldimann 9th September 2013 12:15

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
Thanks D.B.,

As for the third digit issue, nothing really conclusive: it could be a "0"...

Anyway, I've now transferred this plane as an Erla built Bf 109 G-10. Steve, you were right;-)).

Thanks to all who helped to narrow down this particular machine!
Marc

S Sheflin 9th September 2013 15:22

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
Thanks Marc,

But remember, in my case even a broken clock is correct twice a day.

Steve Sheflin

ouidjat 16th September 2013 14:05

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Marc-André Haldimann (Post 171949)
Hi folks,

Now we have this new Bf 109 G-14. Question: which were the units known to be stationed in Bayreuth-Bindlach in the Spring of 1945?

Thanks for your insights!
Marc

Hi Marc,

But you gave the answer in your post, didn't you?
NAGr. Bromberg ?
http://www.flickr.com/photos/2809206...in/photostream

Regards, Franck.

Marc-André Haldimann 16th September 2013 14:36

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
Yes Franck, I guess many of the G-8's and G-6/R2's will do for that unit. My question was more G-10 orientated... OFC, there could have been also WNF built G-10/R2's in the 770 xxx batch, but our issue is this Erla built Bf 109 G-10:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/2809206...57631646235608

and this Mtt built Bf 109 K-4 in the 330 xxx - 331 xxxx batch:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/2809206...57631646235608

Any other JG or EJG known to operate from Bayreuth?

Cheers
Marc

ouidjat 16th September 2013 15:59

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
Nothing found for the moment.
Three NAGr. were based in Bayreuth-Bindlach in 1944 but, according to Michael Holm site, they all left 12/1944...
Keep watching.

Cpt_Farrel 17th September 2013 21:58

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Marc-André Haldimann (Post 172173)
Thanks D.B.,

As for the third digit issue, nothing really conclusive: it could be a "0"...

Anyway, I've now transferred this plane as an Erla built Bf 109 G-10. Steve, you were right;-)).

Thanks to all who helped to narrow down this particular machine!
Marc

The placement of the W.Nr is correct for the 150-152xxx batch but not the 49xxxx range of Erla built G-10.s

/Anders

Rasmussen 17th September 2013 23:24

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Cpt_Farrel (Post 172572)
The placement of the W.Nr is correct for the 150-152xxx batch but not the 49xxxx range of Erla built G-10.s

Wrong - there were a/c's in the 491xxx-range with the same placement of the W.Nr.

Regards
Rasmussen

Marc-André Haldimann 19th September 2013 10:43

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
To illustrate Rasmussen's point, here is a shot of W.Nr. 491 404:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/2809206...57625208099917

Cheers
Marc

Cpt_Farrel 19th September 2013 22:22

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
Yeah, I found some one too, sorry for the confusion.

Marc-André Haldimann 20th September 2013 09:11

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
Folks,

We have an issue:

Thanks to Kees Mol, I was made aware of three exceptionally interesting shots, hosted by Rick Hawkinson on his Flickr account. They do depict a serie of destroyed Bf 109 G-10 and G-14's:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/2809206...n/photostream/
Bf 109 G-10 W.Nr. 151 86. "Gelbe ?", 7./JG 51, Fels am Wagram, May 1945. Source: Veteran collection via Rick Hawkinson, Flickr.com. This plane is very interesting: it is one of the best shot of a low-visibility camouflage on an Erla built Bf 109 G-10. I know of only seventeen pictures illustrating this yet to be identified color wise very peculiar camouflage. Fifteen do show Bf 109 G-10's, five of them with their actual W.Nr. (151 503, 151 86x, 151 965, 152 016, 152 033). The last two do represent probable Bf 109 G-14's. They now can be all accessed via this set: http://www.flickr.com/photos/2809206...7635677312595/
Another fascinating point is the tail band: the brightness of the two color bands surrounding the central white one, and the presence of a small II Gruppe horizontal bar which color is obviously yellow given its contrast with the white central band leaves us with two distinct possibilities, both never documented so far: JG 51 with it's foreseen Green-White-Green RV band or JG 52 with its foreseen Red-White-Red RV band. The skyline to be seen on the second picture below does clearly identify the location as Fels am Wagram (check here all referenced Fels am Wagram pictures: http://www.flickr.com/photos/2809206...7631641286641/). II./JG 51 was based there between March and 12 April 1945, II./JG 52 between 4 and 18 April 1945 (source: www.ww2.dk). Until a color shot of those machines do surface, it's again a matter of guessing which is the color of the darker RV Bands flanking the central white one. In my honest opinion, given the huge amount of photos illustrating II./JG 52 machines none wearing their foreseen Red-White-Red RV Band, there is a bigger chance those machines are II./JG 51; this would be then the first documented picture known to me showing late war machines from this unit, and the first documenting the actual implementation of the foreseen Green-White-Green RV Band.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/2809206...57631641286641
Bf 109 G-10 W.Nr. 61. ... "Schwarze 6", 6./JG 51, Fels am Wagram, May 1945. Source: Veteran collection via Rick Hawkinson, Flickr.com. This second picture gives us a clear view of the Fels am Wagram skyline and depicts a WNF built Bf 109 G-10 in quite a dramatic pose. Again, the RV Band is prominent, possibly pointing to II./JG 51. There are at least six other wrecked or abandoned Bf 109's to be seen in the background; among them is "Gelbe 9", another Erla low-visibility camouflaged 109 I've which close-up can be seen here (http://www.flickr.com/photos/2809206...7631641286641/).

The third shot is less evocative: http://www.flickr.com/photos/28092068@N03/9689875076/
Bf 109 G-14 W.Nr. 78. ..., II./JG 51, Fels am Wagram, late April 1945. Source: Rick Hawkinson, Flickr.com. Not much can be added except it was taken at the same location, Fels am Wagram.

There are times when a single photo ignites a lot of new interrogations: I feel this is the case here. I would appreciate your comments about those strikingly new RV Band colors combination, knowing also that so far only JG 2, JG 4, JG 6 and JG 300 are documented as having used three colored tail bands.

Cheers
Marc

Nick Beale 20th September 2013 10:22

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
"JG 51 with it's foreseen Green-White-Green RV band or JG 52 with its foreseen Red-White-Red RV band."

According to a captured document, JG 52 was allocated red/white and JG 6 was given red/white/red. But Erik Mombeeck's new Luftwaffe Gallery No. 4 (which I haven't seen yet) has an article on III./JG 6 tail bands, illustrated by a Bf 109 with white/red bands.

Marc-André Haldimann 20th September 2013 10:48

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
Many thanks, Nick for your APWIU Report no 48/1945: Good to see the original documents for furthering our research, and thus we are all much indebted to your Ghostbomber website.

I do not yet have LuGa 4 and am looking forward to read Kees's article. The plane illustrated on the cover is Bf 109 G-14/AS W.Nr. 784938 "Grüne 1", Stab./JG 6, at Twenthe, Holland. An excellent case figure showing that JG 6 did implement the RV band designed for JG 52 ..and never so far seen on any of their machines. This underscores my error in post 554...

Cheers
Marc

ouidjat 20th September 2013 11:24

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
Hi Marc,
Erla low visibility set:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/2809206...7635677312595/

Maybe you forgot to include that one in: http://www.me109.info/display.php?a=e&fid=4814 ?

Kees Mol JG 6 article in Lu/Ga 4: Thanks Nick for your APWIU Report no 48/1945 pointer.
Some one did read the said article (except me)?

Regards, Franck.

Cpt_Farrel 20th September 2013 12:03

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
Looking at the first picture (and what a great picture it is!) I would have guessed a JG300 aircraft transferred to II./JG52 as they used such a small II gruppe bar.

Then I look at Schwarze 6 and see that it's got the yellow bar as well and I'm not so sure anymore. I've never seen II./JG52 aircraft with markings in two colors. Besides the "6" is too large for II./JG52. So, a mystery indeed.

Even if it could be proven which unit these aircraft belonged to, I would still be very careful with assuming colors for the tailband as it was the end of the war and transfers from disbanded units would have been common.

Also, remember the ex-JG300 aircraft with the small black horizontal bar, is there perhaps something we don't understand yet regarding these markings/units?

Regarding the III./JG6 aircraft at Twenthe, Green 1 was from 12./JG6, not stab. .

Franck: The theory on III./JG6 from Kees Mol is that they used two bands White/Red rather than the prescribed Red/White/Red. There's a couple of photos and some Crashed Enemy Aircraft Reports that supports that


One last thing, Marc, the W.Nr for Black 6, where does it come from? The wing camoflage does not look like WNF to me.

/Anders

Marc-André Haldimann 20th September 2013 14:14

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by ouidjat (Post 172674)
Hi Marc,
Erla low visibility set:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/2809206...7635677312595/

Maybe you forgot to include that one in: http://www.me109.info/display.php?a=e&fid=4814 ?

Kees Mol JG 6 article in Lu/Ga 4: Thanks Nick for your APWIU Report no 48/1945 pointer.
Some one did read the said article (except me)?

Regards, Franck.

Franck, of course! I totally forgot about the K-4 Ferdinando found us.... thanks for reminding me!

Marc-André Haldimann 20th September 2013 15:20

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Cpt_Farrel (Post 172675)
Looking at the first picture (and what a great picture it is!) I would have guessed a JG300 aircraft transferred to II./JG52 as they used such a small II gruppe bar.

Then I look at Schwarze 6 and see that it's got the yellow bar as well and I'm not so sure anymore. I've never seen II./JG52 aircraft with markings in two colors. Besides the "6" is too large for II./JG52. So, a mystery indeed.

Even if it could be proven which unit these aircraft belonged to, I would still be very careful with assuming colors for the tailband as it was the end of the war and transfers from disbanded units would have been common.

Also, remember the ex-JG300 aircraft with the small black horizontal bar, is there perhaps something we don't understand yet regarding these markings/units?

Regarding the III./JG6 aircraft at Twenthe, Green 1 was from 12./JG6, not stab. .

Franck: The theory on III./JG6 from Kees Mol is that they used two bands White/Red rather than the prescribed Red/White/Red. There's a couple of photos and some Crashed Enemy Aircraft Reports that supports that


One last thing, Marc, the W.Nr for Black 6, where does it come from? The wing camoflage does not look like WNF to me.

/Anders

Thanks for your insight, Anders, especially the information on Kees's latest article in LuGa.

As for "Schwarze 6", the low and straight separation line camouflage on the fuselage added to the wavy scalloped line of the right wing leading edge are classic benchmarks for the WNF Diana-Tisnov production as shown here:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/2809206...57625218079461.
Bf 109 G-10 W.Nr. 770 157 "Gelbe 66", NAGr. 3 (?), Köthen, April 1945. Source: internet.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/2809206...57625218079461
Bf 109 G-10 W.Nr. 770 293 "Gelbe 67", Rinkaby, 12 April 1945. Hitchcock 1977, p. 10.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/2809206...57625218079461
Bf 109 G-10 W.Nr. 770 313 "Schwarze 3", Gatow, 1945. Source: Bergstrom and Pegg 2005, p. 188.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/2809206...57625218079461
Bf 109 G-10 W.Nr. 61x xxx, II./JG 3, Garz, February 1945. Source: old ebay auction

Thanks and cheers
Marc


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