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-   -   Late war Bf 109 pictures source (http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/showthread.php?t=27108)

Cpt_Farrel 20th September 2013 18:18

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
Those features could all be seen on Erla built G-10's too, but look at the spine, the lighter color is in the centre, with darker towards the tail and the canopy, on WNF aircraft there's a darker segment closer to the center of the spine with a lighter segment around the canopy. Sorry for the lack of example, can't get Flickr and Firefox to cooperate on my phone... :)

ouidjat 20th September 2013 19:02

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
Anders, Flickr was down this afternoon. :)

S Sheflin 21st September 2013 00:46

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
Hello everyone,

Regarding the Bf109G-10s with three-part RV bands and short II.Gruppe bars, correct me if I am wrong, but was not this question addressed and answered a year or so ago? As I recall it, the consensus at that time was that these distinctive Bf109G-10s were from JGr.300, and featured JG300’s blue/white/blue RV bands with short II./Gruppe bars.

On the question of Bodenplatte JG6 aircraft carrying red/white RV bands versus the proscribed white/red/white bands, after re-reading the appropriate CEA reports, it is my opinion that this is a case of misidentification. As an example, within the Crashed Enemy Aircraft (CEA) reports there are several where the personnel examining Bodenplatte Luftwaffe wrecks misidentified III.Gruppe bars as being parts of fuselage bands. In addition, CEA 264 contains a statement where they describe fuselage bands as being a, “white band outlined red.” Loss records show that this Bf109G-10 was from JG6. Since many of the aircraft involved were total wrecks, and the people examining them were working with small pieces, it is not surprising that misidentifications occurred.

Finally, as much as I know there are many who would wish it otherwise, I believe that JG52 and JG51 never operationally used their assigned RV bands.

Steve Sheflin

Marc-André Haldimann 21st September 2013 08:26

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
Steve,

Thanks for your insight. your appreciation of the CEA Reports is especially interesting, taking into account what actually was left over of the crashed planes... This makes a lot of sense for the variety of bands configurations recorded.

Back to the Bf 109 G-10's seen on Rick Hawkinson's Flickr account. I respectfully disagree with the JGr. 300 theory, mainly because none of the planes seen do sport the short black II Gruppe bar as all the other 13 referenced pics of JGr 300 do:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/2809206...7632486398923/

The Hawkinson pics do show destroyed machines their paints shining from being washed by the falling rain; the colors are thus vivid. That's how I come to the conclusion that the II Gruppe bars are yellow against the central white band; as for the outer darker RV Bands, be it bright green or bright red, I can't tell. One thing is sure though: their contrast is different from the pale blue used by JGr. 300.

One last point: the location of the Hawkinson pics: they were shot at Fels am Wagram, which never was a base for JG 300 or JGr. 300, but hosted II./JG 51 of which I so far never saw a single picture from their 1944-1945 machines...

To sum it up: more differences then convergences between the known JGr. 300 pictures and the Hawkinson Bf 109 G-10's...

Cheers
Marc

ouidjat 21st September 2013 11:28

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
Hi Guys,

@As for II./JG 51 machines.
I think the only point to be clarified is when the 2nd Gruppe bar did change (if ever) from front cross position to back cross position. On Fels machine(s) the bar is obviously yellow (at least not white).

@As for "red outlined white band": why not?
So; we can suppose that concerning the following picture it has been described - if any report done - as "Yellow band outlined Red" comparing with "normal" RV bands. It's not a bit and pičces wreck yet we don't know the unit.
Without this photo in hands were we going to suppose it should have been "a case of misidentification"?
http://www.flickr.com/photos/28092068@N03/8055999427/in/set-72157625380126592/ (White 12).

@As for CEA 264.
Steve, the published page on Lu/Ga 4 is stating “The vertical band nearer the cockpit was painted red, whilst the aft band was painted white”.
Do you mean that Kees Mol didn’t have the whole report? Or that He did use only that page to prove his theory?
Did you read Kees Mol article? If yes, can you please use arguments written in this article with which you don’t agree?
Can you put a scan of the whole CEA 264 report or send me it in my mailbox please? It will be very helpful to make my own judgement.
Thanks very much for your kind help.

Regards, Franck.

Cpt_Farrel 21st September 2013 15:58

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
I would have agreed with Steve regarding the JG6 bands until I read Mols article, but now that I have I think he's got a good case with proof not only in CEARs but at least one photo.

I don't believe the Fels am Wagram machines to be JG6 anyway so for this case it's of no consequence. I'd say aircraft from III or IV JG300 is possible as they had darker blue than I and II gruppe.

As an outside possibility, when II./JG51 ended up at Wagram maybe they did paint up their aircraft with Green-white-Green after all? There's no photographs that proves the contrary anyway. It's different with JG52 as there's good photographic evidence that they did not use the bands.

It would be quite risky to say the least, for someone to say "let's skip those I.d. markings, we're about to lose anyway" :)

/Anders

Marc-André Haldimann 21st September 2013 20:53

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
Thanks Anders for your thoughts!

The different hue of blue for III. or IV. JG 300 is something new to me; I would love to known from where did you find that out?

I totally agree with your JG 52 assessment, that's why I narrow my thoughts on II./JG 51 until proven otherwise. One has to bear in mind that the pictures were taken at Fels am Wagram; this is not a known base for JG 6 nor JG 300...

Cheers
Marc

Cpt_Farrel 21st September 2013 21:51

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
Regarding the bands of III and IV JG300, it was mentioned in Lorants work I think. It's visible in photos but there was also combat reports from US pilots mentioned. They reported having encountered fighters with black and white stripes when date and location showed they must have met III or IV JG300 aircraft (can't recall which).

/Anders

ouidjat 23rd September 2013 13:31

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
Hi Guys,

this photo: http://www.flickr.com/photos/28092068@N03/9892176736/

Beate? She is a woman then ... Who was she? A pilot?

Regards, Franck.

ouidjat 23rd September 2013 13:34

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
Beate Uhse-Köstlin Ah yes, I see ...

Marc-André Haldimann 24th September 2013 06:41

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by ouidjat (Post 172703)
Hi Guys,

@As for II./JG 51 machines.
I think the only point to be clarified is when the 2nd Gruppe bar did change (if ever) from front cross position to back cross position. On Fels machine(s) the bar is obviously yellow (at least not white).

@As for "red outlined white band": why not?
So; we can suppose that concerning the following picture it has been described - if any report done - as "Yellow band outlined Red" comparing with "normal" RV bands. It's not a bit and pičces wreck yet we don't know the unit.
Without this photo in hands were we going to suppose it should have been "a case of misidentification"?
http://www.flickr.com/photos/28092068@N03/8055999427/in/set-72157625380126592/ (White 12).

@As for CEA 264.
Steve, the published page on Lu/Ga 4 is stating “The vertical band nearer the cockpit was painted red, whilst the aft band was painted white”.
Do you mean that Kees Mol didn’t have the whole report? Or that He did use only that page to prove his theory?
Did you read Kees Mol article? If yes, can you please use arguments written in this article with which you don’t agree?
Can you put a scan of the whole CEA 264 report or send me it in my mailbox please? It will be very helpful to make my own judgement.
Thanks very much for your kind help.

Regards, Franck.

Excellent point, Franck!

"Weisse 12" is still puzzling us, no clues so far...bar the fact this three colors RV Band is still unaccounted for. And that it isn't JG or JGr 300... Our documentation of those "odd" or unseen before RV markings slowly comes together. Let's keep it up!

Cheers
Marc



Cheers
Marc

Marc-André Haldimann 24th September 2013 19:50

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
Hi there Gang,

As a mean to clear collectively our ideas about Reichsverteidigung markings, I've just opened a new set collecting all identified late-war RV bands documented photographically:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/2809206...7635848261393/

Please note, the fine classification is not yet done; I also went only through the Mtt and Erla built Bf 109 G-14's; all the others remain yet to be added. So far 62 pics.
Keep tuned for the completed set. I cross my fingers this new approach will widen our collective understanding, building on Kees Mol's paper in LuGa 4;-))

Cheers
Marc

Marc-André Haldimann 25th September 2013 13:22

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
Ok Gang,

Here we go with all the Reichsverteidigung markings I could find: owing to their evolution, I elected to separate them in two different sets, one for 1944 and one for 1945:

1. 1944 markings (64 pictures):
- JG 1: 1
- JG 3: 1
- JG 3: 16
- JG 4: 2
- JG 25: 1
- JG 27: 12
- JG 53: 3
- JG 300: 22
- JG 301: 3
http://www.flickr.com/photos/2809206...7635869726996/

2. 1945 markings (136 pictures)
- JG 4: 12
- JG 5: 12
- JG 6 (?): 1
- JG 27: 32
- JG 51 (?): 3
- JG 53: 37
- JG 300: 19
- JG 301: 6
- JG 6*: 7
- JG 77: 1
- KG (J) 27: 2
- EKG (J): 1
Unidentified: 4
http://www.flickr.com/photos/2809206...7635848261393/

Just by compiling those two sets, many issues become clear. One of the biggest is the proper identification of the units with three color bands: to tell between JG 4, 6, 51 (?) and 300 is difficult at best.... Please note thus that all the proposed identifications are the ones commonly admitted so far; many are certainly arguable, not a few plain wrong... Hoping that this formidable collective intelligence which is TOCH will help straighten many records;-))

Let's roll
Marc


*according to Kees Mol's latest article

ChrisS 25th September 2013 17:31

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
Hi Marc

What a very useful list! Upon checking my collection I find a small 'fruit' for your labour from Luftwaffe SIG Norway website is a repeat of Bf 109 G-14 W.Nr. 784 930 "Grüne 1", I./JG 77, Twenthe, Summer 1945.

Keep up the great work!

Chris

Marc-André Haldimann 25th September 2013 17:43

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
Great shot!

Many thanks Chris, much appreciated! And yes, I'll keep it up, no worries;-))
Marc

ouidjat 25th September 2013 18:05

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
Thanks Chris!

And according to Kees Mol in Lu/Ga 4 this is JG 6 .... and the premise of that great new adventure!!!

And by the way, WNr. is 784938, not 784930. This is a well sprayed around error.

Cheers, Franck.

PS: Thanks Marc; well ... you know what.

Marc-André Haldimann 25th September 2013 18:22

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
Franck, appreciated;-))

As for 784930, well it is still 784930. It was published before as 784938 (Mol 2013, LuGA 4, p. 52).

Cheers
Marc

ouidjat 25th September 2013 18:42

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
Marc,

Well, there is a misunderstanding here.

P52 I agree the sentence isn't clear but P53 the WNr.784938 is written Under the profile. and repeated Under the photo page 55 and in the full text left of the picture.

My conclusion is that page 52 the sentence really means that "Grüne 1" was 784938 (instead of 784930) and that it was published AS 784930 instead of 784938.

Do you "see" the difference?

Cheers, Franck.

John Manrho 25th September 2013 20:07

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
This can not be a JG 6 a/c. The III. Gruppe bar is missing....I believe I also discussed this with Kees mol....:-) If somebody can scan that article in LuGa #4 for me I can check if I would change my mind.....

Marc-André Haldimann 25th September 2013 21:03

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by ouidjat (Post 172839)
Marc,

Well, there is a misunderstanding here.

P52 I agree the sentence isn't clear but P53 the WNr.784938 is written Under the profile. and repeated Under the photo page 55 and in the full text left of the picture.

My conclusion is that page 52 the sentence really means that "Grüne 1" was 784938 (instead of 784930) and that it was published AS 784930 instead of 784938.

Do you "see" the difference?

Cheers, Franck.

Franck,

What I see on my side is W.Nr. 784 930 on all pages except p. 55...

Cheers
Marc

ouidjat 25th September 2013 22:27

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
Right!

and I'm sorry ... you got the rushes not the published article!! :D
I understand now you didn't!!

Cheers, Franck.

Cpt_Farrel 26th September 2013 00:35

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by John Manrho (Post 172842)
This can not be a JG 6 a/c. The III. Gruppe bar is missing....I believe I also discussed this with Kees mol....:-) If somebody can scan that article in LuGa #4 for me I can check if I would change my mind.....

Is there any proof that III./JG6 used gruppe bars at the time? It wasn't uncommon for some units to be without Gruppe bars so the fact that it's missing isn't proof alone imho.

/Anders

Marc-André Haldimann 26th September 2013 08:39

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by ouidjat (Post 172851)
Right!

and I'm sorry ... you got the rushes not the published article!! :D
I understand now you didn't!!

Cheers, Franck.

Got it... Thanks!
Marc

PhilippeDM 26th September 2013 13:14

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
Marc,

Beautifull collection of pictures and RV bands. However I feel you missed the Bf 109's wearing red/black KG(J)6 bands. Pictures appears in Polish and/or Czech publications. Could be K-4 types, but when I sniffed arround on your picture DB, I saw K-4 too (not to mention the color picture at Kaufbeuren with a KG(J)27 Bf 109....

Nick Beale 26th September 2013 16:25

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by ChrisS (Post 172833)
Hi Marc

Upon checking my collection I find a small 'fruit' for your labour from Luftwaffe SIG Norway website is a repeat of Bf 109 G-14 W.Nr. 784 930 "Grüne 1", I./JG 77, Twenthe, Summer 1945.

Chris

There are also two photos on page 144 of Smith & Gallaspy's "Luftwaffe Camouflage & Markings 1935–45, Vol. 3" (Kookaburra, 1977).

However, if it was at Twente, why does the A.I.2(g) report on the aerodrome mention only one aircraft there, an Me 262? This Bf 109 was out in the open by apparently undamaged hangars, so it's unlikely to have been overlooked. It wasn't in a remote dispersal, for example.

Cpt_Farrel 26th September 2013 18:58

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
It seems to me that the listing from Twente is from after VE day and could it be that by then, only aircraft of particular interest was listed?

/Anders

Marc-André Haldimann 26th September 2013 19:23

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
Philippe,

Thanks for your praise:). You're correct about KG (J) 6; I remember having seen at least one such machine of which I don't have the pic. Any pointer?

Nick,

There's a real oddity here... Thanks for underlining it! By the way, i can't thank you enough for your publishing of original transcripts about those RV bands here: http://www.ghostbombers.com/markings/bands1.html

Through your website, you make us all precious gifts.
Marc

John Manrho 26th September 2013 22:04

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
I studied the LuWa article and still have the opinion that this is not a III./JG 6 a/c. Let me explain why.

First of all, as I stated above, the a/c has no vertical III. Gruppe bar. I have several pictures of 109's of III./JG 6 from the period Feb-April 1945 and these have all a vertical III. Gruppe bar. Unfortunately I have no picture of the Nov-Dec 1944 period. I had contact with 80 former members of III./JG 6 or their relatives but found no pictures of that period. The 109's from Sept-Oct 1944 show no bar, but that is obvious as these belonged to I./JG 5 which had no bar. One well known picture of WNr 491404 taken in March 1945 shows clearly the III. Gruppe bar. I see no reason why III./JG 6 would apply the vertical bars in February 1945 and not direct after their renaming in October 1944.

Indeed the crashed enemy aircraft reports give indications for the red-white-red markings of JG 6 a/c lost during Bodenplatte. Kogler's a/c (Stab JG 6) was marked red-white-red and according to CEA #264 Trost's a/c (2./JG 6)was marked white-red-white, which is more than likely a clerical error. The a/c of Jung (2./JG 6) and Fries (4./JG 6) were also found but were destroyed and no mention of the bands were made. Grabmair's Fw 190 (5./JG 6) was also found with a red-white-red band. It seems consistent that these 190's were marked with red-white-red.

The 109's are more difficult. Rose's a/c (9./JG 6) is mentioned in the CEA #264 but without bands, although he bellylanded his a/c. Perhaps not yet painted? Schlossborn's a/c (9./JG 6) was also found and again red-white-red is mentioned! Betz's a/c (10./JG 6) is mentioned in a seperate report and now only red-white is reported with red closer to the cockpit. However, I have a picture of the crashsite and the a/c is totally destroyed. Krumm's a/c (12./JG 6) is also in CEA #264 and now the bands are listed as red-white again. However, in my opinion not clearly described which band is first. Again, Krumm's a/c was totally destroyed.

Also the picture showing Schwerdtfeger's a/c is imho not conclusive, at least the red is closer to the cockpit and it might even be that the aft red band is not clearly visible. Also, although I used it in my Bodenplatte book, I am now not 100% convinced this is Schwerdtfeger's a/c.

Assuming that 784938 has a white-red band and belongs to III./JG 6 is for me a bridge too far.....

Regards,

John

Nick Beale 26th September 2013 22:37

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
Also, the AI2(G) reports include several aircraft with the white/green band of JG 77. If we find photographs that appear to show a white/green marking that we know was allocated and we know was applied to operational aircraft, then that is pretty strong evidence that it is green/white. Of course a previously unknown, unofficial red/white marking is possible but if anyone is confident that he can tell red from green in a monochrome photo with certainty, he is way ahead of me!

I do agree with John that sometimes interpreting the crash reports is more art than science; different investigators reported in different ways and simple mistakes were made.

John Manrho 26th September 2013 22:42

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
In my Bodenplatte book you will find Abendroth's K-4 of III./JG 77 with white-green band (page 257).

Cheers,

John

Cpt_Farrel 28th September 2013 10:33

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
While I'm not convinced in either way on JG6 bands I would say that any evidence for or against any theory would need to stem from within the same Gruppe, I can hardly think of any Geschwader that had consistent markings throughout all its gruppen. From the battle of Britain to the end of the war, I.D. colors and numerals seems to have been interpreted and applied at Gruppe level.

/Anders

Marc-André Haldimann 28th September 2013 15:18

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by John Manrho (Post 172883)
In my Bodenplatte book you will find Abendroth's K-4 of III./JG 77 with white-green band (page 257).

Cheers,

John

John,

Many thanks for your valued input! After browsing through the 143 pictures available (thanks for Abendroth's W.Nr. 330 204!), I tend to concur with you: it is next to impossible to decide between JG 6 and JG 77 on b/w pics without the input of CEA reports... It would be fantastic to have the latter online. Nick could this be a possibility?

Cheers
Marc

Marc-André Haldimann 28th September 2013 15:20

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Cpt_Farrel (Post 172920)
While I'm not convinced in either way on JG6 bands I would say that any evidence for or against any theory would need to stem from within the same Gruppe, I can hardly think of any Geschwader that had consistent markings throughout all its gruppen. From the battle of Britain to the end of the war, I.D. colors and numerals seems to have been interpreted and applied at Gruppe level.

/Anders

Hej Anders,

On my side, I would see two JG's with a very constant way of applying RV markings as a whole: JG 27 and JG 53. Not sure if JG 4 and JG 300 were that thorough for all their Staffeln, but this could be another possibility...

Cheers
Marc

Nick Beale 28th September 2013 16:03

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Marc-André Haldimann (Post 172940)
It would be fantastic to have the latter online. Nick could this be a possibility?

Cheers
Marc

Not from me, I don't have images or comprehensive notes of the reports in question. Sorry.

Cpt_Farrel 28th September 2013 16:17

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
JG53 is a good example, but JG27 less so imo as the width of the band varied between Gruppen. II./JG27 only used a band that covered one frame of the fuselage for example. Maybe I wasn't clear in my post but I meant not only whether a Gruppe applied bands or not, but also how wide and other variations. JG2 would be a better example than JG27 as the application of fuselagebands were quite constant on their Fw190D-9's.

/Anders

ouidjat 28th September 2013 18:32

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Marc-André Haldimann (Post 172941)
Hej Anders,

On my side, I would see two JG's with a very constant way of applying RV markings as a whole: JG 27 and JG 53. Not sure if JG 4 and JG 300 were that thorough for all their Staffeln, but this could be another possibility...

Cheers
Marc

Hi Marc,

Yes, I agree with you though there is not enough photos available for the moment.
(Fw 190 and Bf 109 situation seems quite different whatever; unless you want to open a Fw 190 collection ? :))

I concur with Anders too; his idea is quite pretty good to trace the RV band Inside one unit...

Last - but not the least: We cannot forget JG 301...
We already found some (only one?) Bf 109 with INVERSED band order (Yellow-Red instead of Red-Yellow - or the contrary; don't remember) and this was discussed in LEMB, times ago. I.e. exactly the situation described by Kees. And no one said it was "hairy" if I do remember well.

Regards, Franck.

Marc-André Haldimann 29th September 2013 15:49

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
Thanks Franck for your thoughts!

That would be great if one could open up a Fw 190 picture resource DB... We would then have a global insight in RV bands;-))

Beyond that, I have no issues with Kees's paper, Franck; he did just the right thing: to bring together CEA Reports and pics is a sure way to have a solid base for discussing RV Bands. JG 6 and JG 77 both had them and they often can't be distinguished because of the inherent limits of b/w photography.
To have an open mind and methodic approach is a THE way for knowledge building: those incredible Fels am Wagram shots did just that. Seeing them opens a new question: beyond JG 2, JG 4, JG 6 and JG 300, we have to take into account JG 51 even if no known pics existed so far...

Back to the documents, and we'll go beyond
Marc

Marc-André Haldimann 29th September 2013 15:54

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
@Nick

Thanks for your answer; maybe someone who has them could team up with you in order to have them on www.ghostbombers.com? That would be great news!

@ Anders

Good point, Anders! An other lead to follow...

Thanks!
Marc

Nick Beale 29th September 2013 16:15

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Marc-André Haldimann (Post 172985)
@Nick

Thanks for your answer; maybe someone who has them could team up with you in order to have them on www.ghostbombers.com? That would be great news!
Marc

Sorry, busy with other projects now but Peter Evans has a section on LEMB where people upload documents, so if anyone has these CEA reports, that would be a good place to share them.

Marc-André Haldimann 30th September 2013 16:43

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Nick Beale (Post 172987)
Sorry, busy with other projects now but Peter Evans has a section on LEMB where people upload documents, so if anyone has these CEA reports, that would be a good place to share them.

All the best for your projects! Looking forward to read them:-))

Marc


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