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-   -   Late war Bf 109 pictures source (http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/showthread.php?t=27108)

ouidjat 20th September 2019 15:24

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
Thanks John, Nick, Marc, Kees and Matti …

Note that Mombeeck did write:
“18/12/44 Fhr. Karl Jettner III./JG 6 Bf 109 G-14 (785821)
4 white Reason and place unknown”
Here: https://www.luftwaffe.be/missing-in-action-jg-6/

While Michael Balss added (Eifel/Lüttich) in his Place/Location column … Which is quite far from the place the machine has been found.

Again, and last: left the machine has been found in a quite good state according the circumstances of this lost and we just wait Matti to add a word concerning the data he kept as seen above.
Because, effectively it is probable the pilot escaped alive of this crash …

Regards,
Franck.

Marc-André Haldimann 21st September 2019 10:48

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by ouidjat (Post 275001)
Thanks John, Nick, Marc, Kees and Matti …

Note that Mombeeck did write:
“18/12/44 Fhr. Karl Jettner III./JG 6 Bf 109 G-14 (785821)
4 white Reason and place unknown”
Here: https://www.luftwaffe.be/missing-in-action-jg-6/

While Michael Balss added (Eifel/Lüttich) in his Place/Location column … Which is quite far from the place the machine has been found.

Again, and last: left the machine has been found in a quite good state according the circumstances of this lost and we just wait Matti to add a word concerning the data he kept as seen above.
Because, effectively it is probable the pilot escaped alive of this crash …

Regards,
Franck.


Franck,

Somehow this story rings a bell : I remember having read in this forum the terrible story of a Jagdflieger and his Bf 109 G-14 he managed to crash land in a clearance in the woods in December 1944, only top be discovered dead in his cockpit by forestry workers in February 45... Could this be the case behind this apparent mystery of Fhr. Jettner and W.Nr. 785 821 ?

Cheers
Marc

John Manrho 21st September 2019 17:34

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
I believe this is a more complex matter and we need to address it from several angles to come to the right conclusion. Let me share my thoughts how I look at this….

First, do these two picture`s belong to the location “Marshalling yard, S.E. of Naunheim”? The answer can be found in the combination of the presence of a Bf 109 “weisse 4”, a “weisse 6” (with black outline and green RVT Band) and the Fw 190 with markings <II + I of which the aft section can be seen in one of the pictures. Without a doubt these pictures are taken at Naunheim marshalling yards.

Which Naunheim is it? Well there are two losses in the A.I.2.(g) Report Serial No. 269 which give a clear indication;

• Fw 190A-8, 734392, 12./JG 11, lost 23.12.44. Ofw. Albert Holland was killed and last seen flying southeast of Lüttich. Not sure if he has a grave, but he must have crashed on German territory west of the Rhine.
• Bf 109G-14, 462912, 8./JG 2, lost 17.12.44. Gefr. Anton Brantner was killed near Weissenthurm (other sources say Raum Koblenz) and he is now buried at Kruft.

Both (and there are more losses in the list) confirm that the Naunheim in A.I.2.(g) Report Serial No. 269 is the Naunheim west of Münstermaifeld. This location must have been a collecting point for aircraft wreckage west of the Koblenz area.

Then we move forward to the “weisse 4”, Werknummer 785821, which clearly made a belly-landing and was recovered by the Germans.

In RL2-III-1170, page 30 & 31, there are three III./JG 6 losses mentioned for 18.12.1944, all without a location;

• Bf 109G-14, 784981, gelbe 2, III./JG 6, Uffz. Gerhard Döpke, vermisst
• Bf 109G-14, 784985, schwarze 1, III./JG 6, Uffz. Ernst Beiersdörfer, vermisst
• Bf 109G-14, 785821, weisse 4, III./JG 6, Fhr. Karl Jettner, vermisst

On 18.12.1944 III./JG 6 flew a mission in the Köln-Koblenz area, so the general area of these losses should be in that area. None of them are mentioned in the NVM, but unfortunately JG 6 NVM are known to be incomplete. However, we know that Döpke was later killed in January 1945 and Beiersdörfer in April 1945. Both still flew with JG 6 at that time. So it seems they bailed out of their a/c on 18.12.44 and returned to their unit.

Fhr. Karl Jettner is more difficult. I researched at every corner in the files of the WAST, VDK and the German Red Cross, but a pilot with that name does not exists. I also tried phonetic variants and there was no match either. I found one Karl Jettner, born 1925, but he was reported missing in November 1944 as a Panzergrenadier.

If we look at the NVM for Ofhr. Karl-Friedrich Fütterer, we note that he made an emergency landing near Weißenthurm after receiving hits in his cockpit. The damage was reported as 40% and he landed wounded in Lazarett Andernach. Handwritten it was added that he flew Bf 109G-6, Werknummer 18587.

After careful analysis I believe that with 99% certainty the loss of Jettner and Fütterer are the same. The RL-III-1170 files (Genst.Gen.Qu.6.Abt) reports are known to be full of errors concerning names, often misspelled. We also know that III./JG 6 flew only with G-14’s and a G-6 loss so late does not seem to be likely…..the location of the recovered 785821 matches with the location where Fütterer made his belly-landing (Note: also Brantner crashed near Weißenthurm and his a/c is also at Naunheim).

Concerning markings, we see that 785821 has no RVT-Band and no vertical III. Gruppe bar. Although I have considerable amount of photo material on JG 6, questions remain concerning their markings. First, we do know that RVT-bands were carried during Bodenplatte. We do not know when they exactly were applied. I have pictures of III./JG a/c with a III. Gruppe vertical bar, but they all come from the March-April 1945 timeframe. Of course I./JG 5 did not carry any bar and we simply do not know when III./JG 6 started to apply these. Was it right away in October 1944? Probably not.

So, finally, I believe 785821 is Ofhr. Karl Fütterer’s a/c…. I discussed this with Matti some time ago….actually he came up with the idea and I agreed.

Regards,

John

Marc-André Haldimann 22nd September 2019 00:10

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
Thanks, John, for your thorough and documented answer. So we can reasonably match 785821 with Ofhr. Fütterer.

I am highly grateful for the time Matti and you took to narrow down this riddle and for fully exposing your deductive work. It is highly appreciated.

Sincerely
Marc

John Manrho 17th October 2019 19:14

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
Thanks Marc for the nice words......I had expected a few more comments....:-)

John

sgeorges4 6th November 2019 21:30

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
if this aircraft is from the 410 serie,wouldn't he be a G6 made by Erla? (could also be a G6/U2 or a G14) https://www.flickr.com/photos/280920...7625707737498/

Marc-André Haldimann 8th December 2019 18:01

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
Here two new photos from the Russian archives by courtesy of Petr Zaika. With all my thanks to Spektor, over on modelforum.cz, for the pointer.

1. Erla built Bf 109 G-14, unit and location unknown.
https://vif2ne.org/nvi/forum/files/Z...109_kopiya.jpg

2. Possibly an Mtt built Bf 109 G-14 "Schwarze 18" from 2./JG 53, given the black RVB band. Notice also the black stripe along the wing root.
https://vif2ne.org/nvi/forum/files/Z...9_2_kopiya.jpg

Cheers
Marc

Marc-André Haldimann 4th May 2020 00:19

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
Hi there Gang,

A new Erla built Bf 109 G-14 shows up tonight, thanks to Batur Avgan, over on Late war Bf 109's Group, FB:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/BEST-Vetera...sAAOSwYcdeqYSt

https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/kAsAA...YSt/s-l500.jpg
https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/wWkAA...YSt/s-l500.jpg
https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/IO4AA...YSt/s-l500.jpg

IMHO, the close-up of the tail allows to read quite clearly the last four digits of the W.Nr.: 0861. It is thus highly probable we have here W.Nr. 460861 for which I have no information so far.

As for the location, Gahro and October 1944 are clear to read. There are also two family names, probably those of the two pilots on this photo, but my Sütterlin abilities are a bit on the low side. They could read "Gr..ke" and "Terbeck" (?).

I would be very grateful for a clear deciphering of their names. This could ultimately help identify positively the unit as Fl.Pl. Gahro was a busy place then, hosting both I./JG 4 and I./JG 300 and, for the sake of completeness, also II./JG 11 though the lack of a II Gruppe bar does make it less likely. Any detail about W.Nr. 460861 would be most welcome as well.

Thanks in advance
Marc

Nick Beale 4th May 2020 08:01

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
Marc, I think you have a typo: first you say 0461 and then suggest 460861 as the full number. The digits in the photo definitely look like 0861 to me.

Marc-André Haldimann 4th May 2020 10:25

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Nick Beale (Post 287894)
Marc, I think you have a typo: first you say 0461 and then suggest 460861 as the full number. The digits in the photo definitely look like 0861 to me.

Yup, my bad, Nick ! Thanks for catching it. It is indeed IMHO W.Nr. 460861.

Cheers
Marc

red-star25 4th May 2020 13:12

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
A 460861 was never produced by Erla.
The last WNr. there was 460671.
The only possibillity I see is G-2 trop 10861, G-6 160861 and G-14 780861.
G-10/R6 490861 was produced in Jan 1945.
G-6 410861 was already lost 11.04.1944 with JG 3.

The names are Grunke and Terbeck.

Regards


Dirk

Marc-André Haldimann 4th May 2020 13:48

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by red-star25 (Post 287912)
A 460861 was never produced by Erla.
The last WNr. there was 460671.
The only possibillity I see is G-2 trop 10861, G-6 160861 and G-14 780861.
G-10/R6 490861 was produced in Jan 1945.
G-6 410861 was already lost 11.04.1944 with JG 3.

The names are Grunke and Terbeck.

Regards


Dirk

Many thanks for your input, Dirk; it is highly appreciated.

We have now a real riddle as the camouflage pattern undoubtedly points towards either a late Erla production Bf 109 G-6 or an Erla G-14.
There is an issue here as the last three digits can't be anything else then 861, the third being possibly either a "9" - which wouldn't match any known Bf 109 G W.Nr. or a "0".

Cheers
Marc

Rasmussen 5th May 2020 01:37

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by red-star25 (Post 287912)
A 460861 was never produced by Erla.
The last WNr. there was 460671.
The only possibillity I see is G-2 trop 10861, G-6 160861 and G-14 780861.
G-10/R6 490861 was produced in Jan 1945.
G-6 410861 was already lost 11.04.1944 with JG 3.

The names are Grunke and Terbeck.


It's in all probability 413861 ... 10861 doesn't fit with the style of W.Nr. (and camo), 160861 and 780861 are not Erla machines, 412861 was most probably (99%) destroyed during the raid from 29.05.1944.


Greetings
Rasmussen

Revi16 5th May 2020 04:42

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
2 Attachment(s)
Quote:

Originally Posted by Rasmussen (Post 287940)
It's in all probability 413861 ... 10861 doesn't fit with the style of W.Nr. (and camo), 160861 and 780861 are not Erla machines, 412861 was most probably (99%) destroyed during the raid from 29.05.1944.


Greetings
Rasmussen


Is it possible that the photo shows a five digit W.Nr.? If the 4"1"3861 is under the red arrow, is there space enough for the first digit to be a 4?

In attached photo, there are both five and six digit W.Nr.'s with approximate same style font and size. The six digit W.Nr. goes all the way back to the rudder hinge taking up the entire space. (I understand that font/size can make a difference.)

Marc-André Haldimann 5th May 2020 09:26

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
Rasmussen,

Thanks for your solution; if this is indeed W.Nr. 413 861, we have here the highest Erla built Bf 109 G-6 W.Nr. I know of.

Revi16,

thanks for your hypothesis too. IMHO, we have a classic 6 digits W.Nr., as Erla often painted or oversprayed the first digit on the front edge of the tail, like for W.Nr. 463 156 "Schwarze 63" at Salzburg-Maxglan; in this case, the last digit being a "1", they had even room to spare...

Cheers
Marc

Rasmussen 5th May 2020 10:03

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Marc-André Haldimann (Post 287950)
...; if this is indeed W.Nr. 413 861, we have here the highest Erla built Bf 109 G-6 W.Nr. I know of.


The highest number was the 413899, a G-6/U2.

ouidjat 5th May 2020 10:17

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
Since when 460861 wasn't produced by Erla ??? By which company then ?

Marc-André Haldimann 5th May 2020 10:52

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Rasmussen (Post 287952)
The highest number was the 413899, a G-6/U2.

Thanks Rasmussen !

The highest W.Nr. documented photographically is W.Nr. 413 839 "Gelbe 8", 11./JG 76, at Fl.Pl. Stade, before 21 August 1944; this photo was part of Egon Albrecht's album, sold on eBay sometimes between 2000 and 2010.


Franck,

Possibly there was no W.Nr. 460 8xx batch ? The highest W.Nr. I'm aware of is W.Nr. 460 638.

Cheers
Marc

Marc-André Haldimann 5th May 2020 15:59

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Rasmussen (Post 287940)
It's in all probability 413861 ... 10861 doesn't fit with the style of W.Nr. (and camo), 160861 and 780861 are not Erla machines, 412861 was most probably (99%) destroyed during the raid from 29.05.1944.


Greetings
Rasmussen

Is W.Nr. 412861 a possibility, Jörn ? The third digit could be visually a "2" as well.

Thanks in advance
Marc

edwest2 5th May 2020 19:41

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
Hi Marc,

It seems to me that a light colored vertical bar near the tail has been oversprayed to help blend in with the rest of the camo.

Rasmussen 6th May 2020 00:01

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by ouidjat (Post 287954)
Since when 460861 wasn't produced by Erla ??? By which company then ?


... by no company, not Erla, WNF or Mtt.

Rasmussen 6th May 2020 00:04

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Marc-André Haldimann (Post 287964)
Is W.Nr. 412861 a possibility, Jörn ? The third digit could be visually a "2" as well.

Thanks in advance
Marc


No ... like I wrote wasn't delivered because destroyed by an bomber attack.

ouidjat 6th May 2020 11:35

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Rasmussen (Post 287984)
... by no company, not Erla, WNF or Mtt.


Are you saying there was no 460xxx ?

Rasmussen 6th May 2020 12:18

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
??????? --- We spoke about 460 8xx (see #978) not 460 xxx!!

Marc-André Haldimann 6th May 2020 14:42

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Rasmussen (Post 287986)
No ... like I wrote wasn't delivered because destroyed by an bomber attack.

Thanks Jörn.

Marc

ouidjat 7th May 2020 10:25

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Rasmussen (Post 288023)
??????? --- We spoke about 460 8xx (see #978) not 460 xxx!!

Ah, OK, sorry.
BUT, there was no 4608xx ?
:)

red-star25 7th May 2020 18:26

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
Last aircraft in 460-Block was 460671.
Next was 461160. There are some loss-reports of aircraft within the gap,
but this must be typos.
Regards
Dirk

Marc-André Haldimann 8th May 2020 09:58

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
Thanks for your information, Dirk. It is much appreciated.

Sincerely
Marc

ouidjat 8th May 2020 10:37

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by red-star25 (Post 288121)
Last aircraft in 460-Block was 460671.
Next was 461160. There are some loss-reports of aircraft within the gap,
but this must be typos.
Regards
Dirk


Didn't see one: on both Georg Morrison or Michael Balss listing.
Not really an information.

Rasmussen 8th May 2020 12:15

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
What do you want to ask? Which does mean: "Not really an information"? There is no further "information" on the statements of Dirk.

ouidjat 8th May 2020 16:59

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Rasmussen (Post 288169)
What do you want to ask? Which does mean: "Not really an information"? There is no further "information" on the statements of Dirk.


Why do you bark?
Marc did use the word information, too; it wasn't a problem.


What I want?
I want you to publish a book instead of ...always barking against who doesn't know like you do-who-did-study-the-original-Erla-documents :)


So please next time you want to bark, bark against Prien, JCM and Gogh who all are TOCH members, it will be fair and more courageous.

Rasmussen 8th May 2020 18:43

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by ouidjat (Post 288187)
Why do you bark?

So please next time you want to bark, bark against Prien, JCM and Gogh who all are TOCH members, it will be fair and more courageous.


"...bark against Prien, JCM and Gogh..." ??????????? :confused::confused: --- I think, China has a bigger problem than Corona. :rolleyes: My time is too valuable to me to discuss such a nonsense.

Nick Beale 8th May 2020 19:15

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
Enough, everybody, no need for anyone to get into a fight.

Please return to calm discussion of Bf 109s.

Revi16 9th May 2020 01:35

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Revi16 (Post 287941)
Is it possible that the photo shows a five digit W.Nr.? If the 4"1"3861 is under the red arrow, is there space enough for the first digit to be a 4?

In attached photo, there are both five and six digit W.Nr.'s with approximate same style font and size. The six digit W.Nr. goes all the way back to the rudder hinge taking up the entire space. (I understand that font/size can make a difference.)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marc-André Haldimann (Post 287950)
Rasmussen,

Thanks for your solution; if this is indeed W.Nr. 413 861, we have here the highest Erla built Bf 109 G-6 W.Nr. I know of.

Revi16,

thanks for your hypothesis too. IMHO, we have a classic 6 digits W.Nr., as Erla often painted or oversprayed the first digit on the front edge of the tail, like for W.Nr. 463 156 "Schwarze 63" at Salzburg-Maxglan; in this case, the last digit being a "1", they had even room to spare...

Cheers
Marc


Thx for your response. I'm not trying to beat a dead horse, but am still a bit confused with font size and space allocation.(I'm sure none of this was a priority during production. :))

Below is 413721 which takes up the entire space on the vertical stab..(Found at German Airfield in Metz, France. Dec. 20 ,1944)
Both 413721 & 413861 have the same number of 1's in the W.Nr., wouldn't they both take up the same amount of space?

Additionally there appears to be a different font used for the last 1 in each of the above W.Nr's, perhaps my answer.

Regards,

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/...8f9fc5fb_h.jpg
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/...e1e60e03_h.jpg

Marc-André Haldimann 29th June 2020 13:42

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
A nice surprise from the East:

This photo does show IMHO an abandoned WNF built Bf 109 G-10/R2 from NAGr. 3 as evidenced by the VBKz "J2+32".
https://vif2ne.org/nvi/forum/files/V...agerovo_hm.jpg

Photographed with Russian aircrews in front of it in May 1945, could the location be Neubrandenburg, the last known airfield used by this unit ?

With my thanks to Spektor, over on modelforum.cz, for the pointer.

Cheers
Marc

S Sheflin 29th June 2020 18:38

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
Hello Marc,
Post #995 - Judging by its lower cowling bumps and low CWSDH (Cold Weather Starting Device Hatch, visible by the man with the cane’s right arm) I think this is a Bf109G-14/AS. Also among its technical suite are a larger Fo 987 oil cooler, missing Erla Haube, and a tall wooden tail fin. Its small “J2” code suggests Nahaufklaerungsgruppe 3.
Respectfully,
Steve Sheflin

Marc-André Haldimann 30th June 2020 10:04

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by S Sheflin (Post 291274)
Hello Marc,
Post #995 - Judging by its lower cowling bumps and low CWSDH (Cold Weather Starting Device Hatch, visible by the man with the cane’s right arm) I think this is a Bf109G-14/AS. Also among its technical suite are a larger Fo 987 oil cooler, missing Erla Haube, and a tall wooden tail fin. Its small “J2” code suggests Nahaufklaerungsgruppe 3.
Respectfully,
Steve Sheflin

Hello Steve,

Thanks as always for your valued input: i indeed missed out the cold start hatch in the low position, a give-away for a DB 605/AS engine. I can but concur with your analysis: it is indeed a Bf 109 G-14/AS, leaving thus only two possible manufacturers, Mtt or Erla, as WNF never built Bf 109 G-14/AS.

As for the unit, we fully concur.

Cheers
Marc

Rasmussen 30th June 2020 11:01

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
Then it's an Mtt. G-14/AS because Erla G-14/AS hadn't the chin bulges...

Marc-André Haldimann 30th June 2020 14:56

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Rasmussen (Post 291306)
Then it's an Mtt. G-14/AS because Erla G-14/AS hadn't the chin bulges...

Thanks Rasmussen !

So we have now both type and manufacture now pinpointed. W.Nr. and location would sum up our knowledge for this particular plane.

Cheers
Marc

S Sheflin 30th June 2020 17:51

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
Hello everyone,
Regarding the Werknummer of the Bf 109 G shown in Post #968 and further, I thought I had already added a comment, but apparently not.
Having carefully read all posts involved, I am left with the question of why the mysterious third digit cannot be the upper portion of a “two?”
WNrn. of 4608xx, there are no examples that I know of.
The third digit is clearly not a “1,” “4,” or a “5,” so 461xxx, 464xxx and 465xxx are out.
That leaves WNr. 462861, which falls nicely within a large number of Erla-Leipzig-built Bf 109 G-14’s. Supporting this idea is the condensed font style and position of application, both of which are very Erla-Leipzig-built-like.
Respectfully,
Steve Sheflin


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