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-   -   Late war Bf 109 pictures source (http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/showthread.php?t=27108)

Marc-André Haldimann 31st May 2012 17:02

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
Hi Franck,

Yep, there are good and not often published... Will think of all the needed items if it works out;-))

Cheers
Marc

Marc-André Haldimann 31st May 2012 17:16

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
Franck,

As an afterthought, the most satisfying one is certainly Bf 109 G-6/AS W.Nr. 163 987 "Weisse 10" from II./JG 3 in Nogent-le-Roi. This pic keeps on popping up in Ebay, always shown partially and distorted. Fernandez-Sommerau publishes it, and part of the "Weisse 10" can just be glimpsed, it allows positive identification of this machine thanks to the lists of Luftwaffe fighters found on the liberated airfields by Allied troops, published by J.-B. Frappé in 1996.

The most aesthetic one is certainly Bf 109 G-8 "Schwarze 11" of NAGr. 9, somewhere near... Santhià;-))

Cheers
Marc
Cheers

ouidjat 1st June 2012 01:53

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
Hello Marc,

Yes...
Why not? But it's flat everywhere from Torino to Venezia around the Po. Rice field? difficult to say ... and point a place.
But in a Cascina for sure! a 100%!

Cheers, Franck.

Marc-André Haldimann 9th June 2012 23:18

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
An odd test in 1944?

Except the tall tail unit, nothing allows the identification of the place and the sense of the ongoing test activities.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/2809206...in/photostream

All informations will be highly appreciated.
Cheers
Marc

S Sheflin 10th June 2012 19:31

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
Hello Marc,

I don’t have a copy of the famous photo to which you refer in front of me right now, but unless I am mistaken, I believe that “Bf 109 G-6/AS W.Nr. 163 987 "Weisse 10" from II./JG 3 in Nogent-le-Roi,” is actually a 109G-6 and not an AS.

Crashed Enemy Aircraft (CEA) report #257 lists its engine as being, DB605A-1, WNr. 007 07724; and all of the technical details I in my database indicate a G-6.

If I am wrong in this, I would love to correct my files.

Steve Sheflin

veltro 10th June 2012 21:23

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Marc-André Haldimann (Post 148773)
The most aesthetic one is certainly Bf 109 G-8 "Schwarze 11" of NAGr. 9, somewhere near... Santhià;-))

Sorry to intervene this late, but I read the latest additions to the thread only now.

Where it is stated or ascertained that the photo indicated was taken in Italy...? As far as the thread we had on it is concerned, it could have been taken anywhere in Southern Europe. And there is simply no proof at all that it belonged to NAGr.11.

These are the facts so far, any further proof of anthing else would be truly welcome.

Marc-André Haldimann 10th June 2012 23:07

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
Hi there Steve,

Here it is: oddly enough, there were two "Weisse 10" found in Nogent-le-Roi.

The first one is the well known W.Nr. 166 224, and the second is W.Nr. 163 987, of which I attached the pic here. You will notice the vertical bar of the "1" showing under the GI's thigh who leans in the cockpit, whilst the second digit "0" can bearly be seen at the height of the neck and chin of the second, standing GI.

I agree that the list of planes does not mention an AS engine...but the photo shows otherwise...

Cheers
Marc

Marc-André Haldimann 10th June 2012 23:09

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by veltro (Post 149354)
Sorry to intervene this late, but I read the latest additions to the thread only now.

Where it is stated or ascertained that the photo indicated was taken in Italy...? As far as the thread we had on it is concerned, it could have been taken anywhere in Southern Europe. And there is simply no proof at all that it belonged to NAGr.11.

These are the facts so far, any further proof of anthing else would be truly welcome.

Ferdinando, it is never too late. I changed the caption accordingly by inserting question marks behind all given indications. If you do feel, it would be wiser to cancel the given tentative legend, I will do so.

Sincerely
Marc

veltro 10th June 2012 23:24

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Marc-André Haldimann (Post 149359)
Ferdinando, it is never too late. I changed the caption accordingly by inserting question marks behind all given indications. If you do feel, it would be wiser to cancel the given tentative legend, I will do so.

IMHO, it would be wiser... much wiser considering not only the virtual absence of any proof or recognization of its identity but also the aspect of reference that your excellent work has assumed in a short time.

And from this, to find elsewhere quoted as a fact your "tentative identity proposal" (as written in too much smaller characters below the data accompanying the photograph - BTW the only question mark I see is after the Werke Nummer, not enough, it seems - a fact that will be overlooked by those looking only for certainties in the caption), the step is very short.

Your work of collecting and making visible late Bf 109 images from various sources is more than commendable (I'd rather say invaluable), but trying to make ends meet at all costs is a way to ruin this, believe me.

Thanks as always for your attention

Marc-André Haldimann 10th June 2012 23:29

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
Ferdinando,

Many thanks for your praise! I will stand true to the hoped for standard and thus "neutralize" the legend, as safety of research obviously commends.

Cheers
Marc

Marc-André Haldimann 10th June 2012 23:44

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
Thanks to Ludovic, over on LEMB, I just uploaded a serie of screenshots taken from a US 103 Div. cameraman film shot in the winter 1945 - 1946 at Schongau:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mpvmygc8f44

There are at least four Erla built Bf 109 G-10 and some older G-6 or G-14 types. All told a tremendous film, including a Fw 190 D-9 with it's 24 R4M rockets still attached on the wooden racks under its wings...

Cheers
Marc

Nick Beale 11th June 2012 00:53

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
1 Attachment(s)
Quote:

Originally Posted by Marc-André Haldimann (Post 149362)
film, including a Fw 190 D-9 with it's 24 R4M rockets still attached on the wooden racks under its wings...

Cheers
Marc

And it looks like it has "62" in small black figures (partly covered by snow) on the wing leading edge. Similar leading-edge markings were seen in the Verbandsführerschule General der Jagdflieger. Unlike other known aircraft of theirs (see Japo's Fw 190 D, Vol. 1), this doesn't seem to be a D-11, lacking that sub-type's outer wing cannon.

S Sheflin 11th June 2012 06:35

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
Hi Marc and Nick,

Stop the film at 2:01and count the white R4M tips. I count 13 = 26 total. What do you think?

Steve Sheflin

Nick Beale 11th June 2012 16:06

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
2 Attachment(s)
Quote:

Originally Posted by S Sheflin (Post 149373)
Stop the film at 2:01and count the white R4M tips. I count 13 = 26 total. What do you think?

Steve Sheflin

I make it 13 too.

Micke D 11th June 2012 16:16

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
The resent information is that the Doras had 2 x 13 rockets; it was only when the first photo was found it looked like there were 2 x 12 rockets.

ouidjat 12th June 2012 11:30

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by veltro (Post 149360)
IMHO, it would be wiser... much wiser considering not only the virtual absence of any proof or recognization of its identity but also the aspect of reference that your excellent work has assumed in a short time.

And from this, to find elsewhere quoted as a fact your "tentative identity proposal" (as written in too much smaller characters below the data accompanying the photograph - BTW the only question mark I see is after the Werke Nummer, not enough, it seems - a fact that will be overlooked by those looking only for certainties in the caption), the step is very short.

Your work of collecting and making visible late Bf 109 images from various sources is more than commendable (I'd rather say invaluable), but trying to make ends meet at all costs is a way to ruin this, believe me.

Thanks as always for your attention

and Marc answer too.

Dear Ferdinando,

Santhia' is just a joke since I live there...
Anyway, You are perfectly right in this comment and I know Marc is trying his best (And his best is not bad) to take all needed precaution, not only in checking caption but in giving his sources; helping us to check again.
From my point of view, Flickr is limited to permit change in a caption. Just because it is difficult to get a picture posted month ago. Giving a page is not helpful since, number is changing when adding new pictures. .... And now, we have almost 150 pages to check... one by one.

One point has been good and did change - for good - the situation; When Marc did start his "Late war Bf 109 picture source", here in TOCH, more and more TOCH and LEMB members started their comments, in these columns or elsewhere.

Last, with few access, if no access at all, to books I, personnally, am very grateful for what Marc has done and is going to do. And of course to all TOCH and LEMB members who are keeping this lively.

Cheers, Franck.

Marc-André Haldimann 12th June 2012 18:16

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
Merci Franck,

For your praise; with your and Ferdinando's untiring help, the 1944 - 1945 Bf 109 encyclopedy we're slowly building will be done one day;-))

Sincerely
Marc

Marc-André Haldimann 13th June 2012 18:47

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
Folks,

I just found an interesting Bf 109 G-6/AS in its overall RLM 76 livery, probably photographed May - June 1944 in Germany; only the upper part of what seems to be a "Gelbe" tactical number can be seen.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/2809206...in/photostream

According to Prien and Rodeike 1995, III./JG 1, I./JG 5 and II./JG 11 were the first to be equipped with this subtype. I would be most interested into identifying unit and place.

Thanks for your inputs
Marc

FalkeEins 13th June 2012 18:56

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Nick Beale (Post 149366)
And it looks like it has "62" in small black figures (partly covered by snow) on the wing leading edge. Similar leading-edge markings were seen in the Verbandsführerschule General der Jagdflieger. Unlike other known aircraft of theirs (see Japo's Fw 190 D, Vol. 1), this doesn't seem to be a D-11, lacking that sub-type's outer wing cannon.

This footage is exploited in the Eagle Editions Dora book (Vol II, p187-188) - the aircraft is identified as a D-9 of 1./JG 101 'white 52' or possibly 'chevron white 52'

Marc-André Haldimann 16th June 2012 09:14

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
Hi there folks,

I'm currently carrying out, a huge cleaning sorting of my Flickr account in order to flush out all remaining pictures without a proper legend. in this process, I'm confronted with a serie of about 20 pictures showing a line of Bf 109 G-6 or G14 with no JG specific markings. They were all part of an album sold on Ebay probably around 2005 - 2008. I just found two of them on Neil's Falkeeins blogspot but without a legend in a post devoted to the 22 August 1944 air battle over Mantes which involved II./JG 53, III./JG 76 and III./JG 26.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/2809206...in/photostream
http://www.flickr.com/photos/2809206...in/photostream

Are they II./JG 53 machines or III./JG 76, which converted until 20 August 1944 on brand new Bf 109 G-14's? Can the unit and subtype be confirmed? Is the location for those pictures known?

Are those pictures stemming from the same album do represent the same unit? At the same or in another location? The same time frame?
http://www.flickr.com/photos/2809206...in/photostream
http://www.flickr.com/photos/2809206...in/photostream
http://www.flickr.com/photos/2809206...in/photostream
http://www.flickr.com/photos/2809206...in/photostream
http://www.flickr.com/photos/2809206...n/photostream/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/2809206...n/photostream/

Marc-André Haldimann 16th June 2012 09:27

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
There is a technical glitch and can't edit the previous post...

I just wished to add all my thanks in advance
Marc

Nick Beale 17th June 2012 17:02

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
This one http://www.flickr.com/photos/2809206...7625539886908/ is another case of a red spot on a white fuselage band, followed by a wave marking = IV./JG 3 in summer/autumn 1943.

This suggests that it could be one or other of the two such "black 3" found in Southern Italy:
Bf 109 G-6, W.Nr. 18512, Black 3 + red spot and “wave” (previous marking SI+UY) found at Foggia main aerodrome.

Bf 109 G-6, W.Nr. 19461,Black 3 + red spot and “wave” found at Lecce/San Donato.
The only question mark for me would be the white outline to the "3" which is not mentioned in the reports from Italy.

veltro 17th June 2012 17:13

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Marc-André Haldimann (Post 149654)
I'm currently carrying out, a huge cleaning sorting of my Flickr account in order to flush out all remaining pictures without a proper legend. (...)

Certainly mine is an useless question, but maybe my English simply isn't good enough to understand properly... Marc, when you wrote "...to flush out all remaining pictures", you didn't mean "to delete" them, but simply to move them to a section devoted to the (yet) unidentified images, didn't you?

Just to understand and for my peace of mind... thanks.

Marc-André Haldimann 17th June 2012 19:15

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
Caro Ferdinando,

You got me right! My work those last two days was to sort out through all pictures I've uploaded; I've deleted all the ones who were uploaded twice from two different sources, and I've done a real effort to give minimal legends to all remaining pictures.

I've also checked a fair amount - but not all yet! - of pictures found on the net against the publications of my library, in order to give a precise anchoring for any researcher.

Still some work to go through, but I'm in a time issue toward two archaeological publications, so this won't be finished before...August.

Tanti saluti
Marc

unikum 18th July 2012 18:38

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
Ebayi.com
http://www.ebay.de/itm/Jagdflugzeug-...item1c294d9776

Marc-André Haldimann 18th July 2012 19:05

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
Thanks Unikum!

Am currently travelling and cannot open the picture. Could you upload it? Many thanks in advance

Marc

Nick Beale 19th July 2012 11:29

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by veltro (Post 149739)
...maybe my English simply isn't good enough to understand properly...

Well, in my experience of it, it's better than many English people seem to manage!

Marc-André Haldimann 31st July 2012 19:11

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
Hi there Gang,

I've just uploaded two pictures of a Bf 109 G from an unknown unit, found derelict at Brussels Melsbroek in late September 1944.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/2809206...in/photostream
http://www.flickr.com/photos/2809206...in/photostream

This machine sports a very dark two tones camouflage which brings us back on other, later - mainly Erla built - Bf 109 G-10 in the W.Nr. 150'000 - 152'000 range. For 1944, I'm not aware of any Bf 109 camouflaged in such dark color beyond the lone Bf 109 G-6/AS "Grüne 5", piloted by Oblt. Manfred Dieterle, 2./Erg. JG 2, at Ludwigslust, in December 1944.

Does one of you guys have informations on any other Bf 109 G camouflaged in such dark hues in August or early September 1944? As for this particular machine, I would be grateful for any other information, especially it's unit and subtype.

Thanks in advance
Marc

ouidjat 1st August 2012 07:31

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
Hi there gang's boss!

I am going to say a stupid thing :o but the following one is in same range and it's a Schwarze 7 too. Of course the mountains in background don't make us think to Belgium; whatever ...
And I didn't say it's the same plane; just an element of possible answer.
http://www.me109.info/display.php?a=e&fid=7174
JG 27 sounds strange with that similingly Yellow band.
Cpt Farrels did make a profile of a G-10, "Schwarze 13" displaying such dark (two tones) camouflage and such yellow band talking about a JG 11 aircraft.

Cheers, Franck.

Falcon 1st August 2012 08:31

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by ouidjat (Post 152279)
Hi there gang's boss!

I am going to say a stupid thing :o but the following one is in same range and it's a Schwarze 7 too. Of course the mountains in background don't make us think to Belgium; whatever ...
And I didn't say it's the same plane; just an element of possible answer.
http://www.me109.info/display.php?a=e&fid=7174
JG 27 sounds strange with that similingly Yellow band.
Cpt Farrels did make a profile of a G-10, "Schwarze 13" displaying such dark (two tones) camouflage and such yellow band talking about a JG 11 aircraft.

Cheers, Franck.

Thats my source, Franck:
http://s1224.photobucket.com/profile/ASYLUM_thirteen

A nice collection of G-10 photos from different sources. Its like Marcs collection. :)

Tschöö,
David

ouidjat 1st August 2012 09:23

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
Hello David,

Yes... That picture story.
Downloaded in April 2010 from one US site or "outsider" Forum - without being sarcastic. Original size is 1850 wide.
Given WNr.1523x3 after a TOCH and/or LEMB discussion/comment. Don't know this 152033 comes from, but why not. At least we have two "3" in both! :D.
And given unit JG 27. I'm not critisizing your caption my dear friend.
BUT: Anders did put his "Schwarze 13" profile in his (old) site in 10/2011 (? At least I did download it at that time).
And it's true that this yellow band is puzzling me and I wonder from where comes this JG 27 caption.

And still no answer.

NOTE: Looking in my modest lost list in the range given by Marc I did find 12 planes: 9 from JG 300, two from NJG 11 and one from JG 27. All lost in 1945.
Some hypothesis: (Of course 12 is not enough)
1/ Anders "Schwarze 13" isn't JG 11 but NJG 11.
2/ All in fact are JG 300/NJG 11 being flown night and day, shared by both unit.
3/ Hence this "special camo".

Left that Bruxelles Late September 1944 picture....

Tshüss, Franck.

RolandF 1st August 2012 09:46

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
Quote:

Its like Marcs collection.
Not like Marc´s. It´s Photobucket and I can see the pics:(

Regards

Roland

Falcon 1st August 2012 09:58

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
Hi Roland,
I don't have an account at Photobucket and I can see the photos. I use Firefox and the browser country settings are UK/US. Try this...

ouidjat 1st August 2012 11:24

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
Thanks David!!!

Schwarze 13!
http://www.me109.info/display.php?a=e&fid=7179

Tschüss, Franck.

Marc-André Haldimann 1st August 2012 12:34

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
Hallo David, Franck und Roland!

Thanks for your thoughts, Franck! Your reasoning about the known pictures does bring us forward: I've never thought of JG 300/NJG 11 as linked units. David, the Yellow fuselage band does point in the same direction indeed. By the way, did you find your "Schwarze 13" pictures on Ebay?

Roland, I concur with David: I also installed on my Mac Firefox, and put the country setting on UK/USA and since then, no more worries;-))

As Franck puts it, this leaves us with the one and only dark camouflaged Bf 109 G depicted at Brussels Melsbroek in late September 1944. Was NJG 11 operating from this airfield?

Cheers
Marc

ouidjat 1st August 2012 13:15

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
Euh, Hum ...

Slowly: it's just an idea ... And what I wrote when in office without checking deaper and in detail can be wrong...
1./NJG 11 was formed from 6./JG 300. In August 1944.
2./NJG 11 from 1./NJGr. 10 from I./JG 300
and so on.
All units used Bf109G and looks like Bf109G-10s indeed starting late 1944...

So it seems there is a possibility but it's open.
And it is just based on my short lost list on these batches. We need more and we need to verify that other units (II./JG 52 for example!) did NOT fly on such camouflaged machines. Actually the same Anders ;) did paint a very close camouflaged JG 52 machine!

BUT, nevertheless, it's an appealling idea! I like it ... until a much more expert than I will put more arguments on the table.

OK. The link given by David is working straight forward for me, without firefox stuff.
The guy running this photobuckett is one of us, of course. But not me; I swear!.. And I concurr with Roland; it's not exactly the same stuff. Marc is engaging a permanent discussion between his page and this Forum and LEMB members too... Let's see.

Tschüss, Franck.

Marc-André Haldimann 1st August 2012 13:32

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
Yes Franck,

Your ideas, together with all other inputs, keeps us rolling; that's the charm of TOCH and LEMB...

Kees Mol just kindly attracted my attention to the fact that a section of the Melsbroek "dark" Bf 109 G might have survived to nowadays. The Brussels Air Museum displays next to its Fi 156 Storch a Bf 109 G-14/U4 fuselage section which appears by all means as dark as the machine depicted in September 1944. Now that would be something!
http://www.airmuseum.be/aircraftondi...ges/storch.jpg

Another picture can be seen in Mikael Olrog's site:
http://www.preservedaxisaircraft.com/

Go under German aircrafts, relics, Messerschmitt and there it is...
Glad to know that NJG 11 was formed in August 1944; this machine might just fit in;-))

Cheers
Marc

Marc-André Haldimann 1st August 2012 16:10

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
Just to add another evidence:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/2809206...in/photostream
Source: Rittger, (L.), 2007: The Messerschmitt Bf 109. A comprehensive guide for the modeller. Part 2: "F" to "K" variants,Modeller Datafile 10, SAM Publications, p. 61.

I found this other dark two tones camouflaged Bf 109 G; given it's horseshoe shaped oil tank and long antenna mast, it is most probably another Bf 109 G-6. Note the yellow tail band, similar to this machine, found at Wels in May 1945:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/2809206...57627917872322

The search is on;-))
Marc

Erich 1st August 2012 23:32

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
greetings Gents

I./NJG 11 in pieces was at Lippstadt and Köthen into November 1944. In September of 44 it was equipped with the Bf 109G-6/AS.

1st staffel was not formed from 6.Sturm/JG 300 and there never was a Nachtkommando Plöner with JG 300 as far as I have found in my searches.

most likley the band on black 13 if and I do not believe it is a NJG 11 machine would of been red as was 10.Nacht/JG 300's Bf 109G-6's and G-14/AS before the staffel became the basis for 5th and 6./NJG 11. Later the fuselage bands were painted out.

just some things to consider

E ~

Marc-André Haldimann 2nd August 2012 09:09

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
Erich,

Thanks for your detailed input which gives me a clearer picture of the JG 300 /NJG 11 situation. This light colored band on Bf 109 G-10 "Schwarze 13" is 900 mm wide and does point quite clearly to a JG 11 machine.

This is not the case for the other mentioned pictures; those Bf 109 G have a 450 mm wide yellow tail band, signaling, to my knowledge, a training unit. The one point which is in common between all those machines is the dark two tones all fuselage camouflage.

The Bf 109 G-14 found in Melsbroek is more complex then I thought: thanks to Kees Mol, I found out that it's port side is camouflaged in the low vis dark two tones, but it's starboard side is an almost overall RLM 76, like the known Antwerpen Erla VIII Bf 109 G-6's...

Talk about easy determinations with this kind of riddle;-))

Cheers
Marc


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