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-   -   Late war Bf 109 pictures source (http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/showthread.php?t=27108)

Erich 3rd August 2012 19:25

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
Marc

like I said earlier NJG 11 109G-10's and even the K-4 in limited numbers did not have a Rumpfband installed, later war they had 2cm waffenpods installed for day/night ground attack duties: G-14/AS and G-10's.

Note on black 13 the underwing colour - RLM 76 it appears, late war ground attack had many machines with undersides painted black while uppers were in RLM 76 and shades of grey squiggles and or spots.

E ~

Marc-André Haldimann 4th August 2012 18:50

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
Thanks for your precisions, Erich, they are appreciated. The R6 MG 151/20 on G-14's and G-10's are almost undocumented photographically. I know only one picture of a G-10 taken in an aircraft dump sometimes in 1946 showing them... Published in Prien and Rodeike 1995.

Do you know any pictures of G-14/R6's? I would love to see some.

Cheers
Marc

Cheers
Marc

ouidjat 5th August 2012 04:00

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
That? Effectively looks like a dump in background;1946? Thank U

Marc-André Haldimann 5th August 2012 06:43

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
Bingo! And thanks!
Marc

ouidjat 5th August 2012 09:00

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
Hi Marc,

That one isn't coming from Prien, and obviously not scanned in a book.
And I just realised U're right telling there is not that much of G-14/R6!

Cheers, Franck.

Marc-André Haldimann 5th August 2012 09:34

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
Hallo Franck,

I'm pretty sure though I've seen this pic published already... I'll have to take full use of a rainy Sunday to find it back;-)).

According to Falcon citing Harald Vogt's latest opus, there are none known so far depicting a Bf 109 G-14/R6... Something to hope for on Ebay?

Thanks again and cheers
Marc

ouidjat 5th August 2012 10:26

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
In TOCH, one or two years ago; well identified by ... You!
April 2010, in fact :D. (downloaded on 8th).

ouidjat 5th August 2012 10:37

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
:confused:
Looking through TOCH pages I just read JCM said that R6 was for PKS 12, all weather fighters.

veltro 5th August 2012 12:13

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Marc-André Haldimann (Post 152434)
I'm pretty sure though I've seen this pic published already... I'll have to take full use of a rainy Sunday to find it

To be precise, it is published on page 163 of Prien & Rodeike fundamental "Messerschmitt Bf 109 F, G & K Series" published on 1993, photo credited to Peter Petrick and tentatively located at Bad Lippspringe.

Hope it helps...

Marc-André Haldimann 5th August 2012 15:37

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
Thanks Ferdinando! I was wrong in my year but right in my authors...

Grazie mille!
Marc

Falcon 5th August 2012 17:44

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by ouidjat (Post 152437)
:confused:
Looking through TOCH pages I just read JCM said that R6 was for PKS 12, all weather fighters.

Franck, to say it with the words like Harald Vogt:
Not G-14/R6!
Bf 109 G-14(/AS)/Rüstsatz 6 (Gondelwaffen).
;)

ouidjat 6th August 2012 02:13

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
Hello David,

I Need to stop to read Yahoo comments ...
Yes G-14/AS/R6 and R6 for MG151/20 OK. But I didn't find G-14/R6 pictures either.

But what I said is that in a previous comment, in another thread, Jean-Claude Mermet (JCM) said Rüstsatz 6 for Bf 109G-10 was not a Gondelwaffen but a PSK 12 camera installation.

So?..

Tshüss, Franck.

Marc-André Haldimann 12th August 2012 12:30

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
Fols,

Again a question mark for the ongoing eerie of late war Bf 109's on Flickr:

First case: Bf 109 G-10 W.Nr. 150 816 "Schwarze 4", Langensalza, May 1945.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/28092068@N03/7728261930/

Is this a JG 2 or a JG 300 machine? I've read both through different posts in different forums. Any synthesis on this particular one?

Second case: Bf 109 G-6/AS "Schwarze (?) 13", JG 1 (?), shot down in Spring 1944 by 9th AF:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/2809206...in/photostream.

This photo, originally provided by Jean-Yves Lorant, is thought to be depicting the final moments of Walter Oesau's Bf 109 G-6/AS W.Nr. 20 499 "Grüne 13", I./JG 1 on 13 May 1944. Though one can recognize quite clearly a red tail band and the conspicuous all over RLM 76 camouflage typical for those Erla built "Höhenjägern", I'm at a loss, as other authors, to ascertain this was indeed Oesau's machine.

All inputs are warmly welcome!

Cheers
Marc

ChrisS 13th August 2012 21:13

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
Hi Marc

First case: or 5./JG 51 or perhaps Blau 4 ;) Good old black and white film....

Cheers

Chris

Marc-André Haldimann 13th August 2012 21:27

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
Hi there Chris,

Great, a third possibility! And now, where shall we go?;-)) Talk about a strenuous subject...

Thanks Chris
Marc

Marc-André Haldimann 13th August 2012 21:45

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
Thanks to Pufo, on Modelforum.cz, here is this great color still from Criticalpast.com which shows a half burnt-out Bf 109 G from a training unit, filmed in Summer 1945:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/2809206...in/photostream

It does point toward an overall RLM 82 camouflage....

Cheers
Marc

Rasmussen 13th August 2012 21:47

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Marc-André Haldimann (Post 152864)
First case: Bf 109 G-10 W.Nr. 150 816 "Schwarze 4", Langensalza, May 1945.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/28092068@N03/7728261930/

Is this a JG 2 or a JG 300 machine? I've read both through different posts in different forums. Any synthesis on this particular one?

Regarding J.C.Mermet (he quote of the TO from I./ JG 300, Noschinski, and a conversation with J.-Y. Lorant) belonged the a/c to the I./ JG 300 and was given to another, unknown group later. There the G-10 got the horizontal bar. Another example you find in "Luftwaffe im Focus", special no.3, on page 52/53 - the "blue 2" of JG 300.

Best regards
Rasmussen


Marc-André Haldimann 13th August 2012 21:50

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
Thanks very much Jörg!

I will change the caption accordingly! Regarding the often discussed topic of late war low visibility full fuselage camouflage, what do you think of the seemingly all fuselage RLM 82 with a bottom RLM 76 Bf 109 G, shown on this just emerged critical past.com movie still? Could this fit with an Erla production?

Schönen Dank
Marc

veltro 13th August 2012 21:56

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
Thare is a thread of two years ago about the W.Nr. 150 816 here: http://forum.largescaleplanes.com/in...howtopic=28401 ...

Marc-André Haldimann 13th August 2012 22:16

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
Grazie Ferdinando!

Interesting with good sized pictures... And now a new challenge for us all: this RLM 82 overall camouflage as seen on the criticalpast.com still? A plausible theory?

Thanks again
Marc

Marc-André Haldimann 15th August 2012 00:14

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
I just found three pictures of a Bf 109 G-10 which performs a RATO assisted take-off; they are currently for sale on Ebay:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/WW2-German-L...#ht_500wt_1144

Here for the sake of a lasting link:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/2809206...in/photostream
http://www.flickr.com/photos/2809206...in/photostream
http://www.flickr.com/photos/2809206...in/photostream

Any idea as to where and when? Quite a fascinating insight in late war Bf 109 trials I've never seen published so far...

Cheers
Marc

Rasmussen 15th August 2012 08:24

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Marc-André Haldimann (Post 153005)
I just found three pictures of a Bf 109 G-10 which performs a RATO assisted take-off; they are currently for sale on Ebay:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/WW2-German-L...#ht_500wt_1144

Not real an G-10 (only the fuselage/ engine) ... it's the Avia C-10 (S-99), sign V-9 (later OK-BYA or OK-4381). The a/c was tested with the rockets in VLU Letnany in 1946/47 (for example Mjr. Jiri Manak on 02.10.46 seven take offs, 03.10. eight, 25.06.47 two). The pictures are well known since 70th years and often published (in Czech sources, for example in letectvi + kosmonautika).

Best regards
Rasmussen

Marc-André Haldimann 15th August 2012 09:45

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
Many thanks Jörg!

I've never seen the publications your refer, hence my error. Great to know this.

Sincerely
Marc

Marc-André Haldimann 20th August 2012 23:33

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
Folks,

The late war Bf 109's need you!
http://www.flickr.com/photos/2809206...in/photostream

I have this GunCam shot from a twisting Bf 109 G for which I have the following information:

Bf 109 G-6 or G-14 W.Nr. unknown, ?/JG 3, near Mulhouse, France, 16 August 1944. Source: vnafwing.com. This machine was ultimately shot down by 2nd Lt. Richard C. Penrose, 504 FS, 339 FG. Courtesy of CAG, VNAFWING Forum, 15 February 2007.

I surmise it's a JG 3 plane as the white tail band is conspicuous... Who could shed more light on the pilot's and the plane's identity?

Thanks in advance
Marc

Marc-André Haldimann 22nd August 2012 09:33

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
Thanks to Tomas Prusa, over on modelforum.cz, here is maybe another piece of evidence in the growing "JGr 300" file:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/2809206...in/photostream
http://modelforum.cz/download/file.p...6432&mode=view

"Gelbe 6" has all the Erla built Bf 109 G-10 features (small wing bumps, long tail wheel) and this is the best close-up of the Blue-white-blue RV band with the short II Gruppe bar across it we have so far. Thanks to Neil's excellent summary here, we now are more in the picture about JGr 300, the result of the amalgamation of II. and III./JG 300 in late April 1945 (Luftflottenkommando 6 ORB, 3 May 1945):
http://falkeeins.blogspot.ch/2012/08...pril-1945.html

Any ideas as to where this shot was taken?

Cheers
Marc

ChristianK 22nd August 2012 09:58

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
1 Attachment(s)
Hi Marc,

nice find! This one was captured at Neubiberg, attached you find two additional photos. The first one from a veteran site, the other from a Kagero volume (Ju 88 Vol.3 I think).

Regards,
Christian

Marc-André Haldimann 22nd August 2012 10:28

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
Hallo Christian,

Excellent, great to know where this machine was found! Thanks for the two other pics: the first one I have already posted on Flickr, I will add the second one.

Cheers and thanks!
Marc

Marc-André Haldimann 23rd August 2012 05:39

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
The more I fiddle with this pic, the more I get the impression we might have as much as two JGr 300 Bf 109 G-10 and K-4...
http://www.flickr.com/photos/2809206...in/photostream

Hard to be definitive about it: the print quality is too blurry...

Cheers
Marc

Nick Beale 23rd August 2012 13:01

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
1 Attachment(s)
The IWM collection has the same scene from a slightly different angle (see attached crop, adjusted for shadows/highlights) although I don't recall ever seeing it published. The one marking you can see clearly is second from the right, apparently "white 5" with a JG 27 fuselage band.

Jochen Prien 23rd August 2012 13:14

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
Nick,

I think I have it published and duly attributed oit top the I.W.M. in the pictorial unit history of Stab and I/JG 27, which came out some 13 years ago.

Regards

Jochen

Marc-André Haldimann 23rd August 2012 15:31

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
Many thanks, Nick!
Great to have a much better quality shot from this hangar in Bremen. Do you know where to trace the second picture in such a crisp quality? This would give a better information for "Schwarze 8" and "Weisse 13".

Jochen,
Yes, you do have duly published it, and credited it to the IWM, on p. 502 of your opus. I found the same shot on the AWM website, and thus elected to have it posted for the sake of information. If you still have the original file, I would love to hear your opinion especially about "Schwarze 8" as I doubt that the brilliance of "Weisse 13"'s fuselage will shed much light.

Thanks to both
Marc

Nick Beale 23rd August 2012 15:55

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Marc-André Haldimann (Post 153500)
Do you know where to trace the second picture in such a crisp quality?
Marc

Sorry but no. I bought the print I have from IWM maybe 25 years ago and I don't remember that there was more than one version (although surely both were taken at the same time, weren't they?).

P.S. apologies to Jochen for not remembering his publication of the photo.

Marc-André Haldimann 23rd August 2012 16:16

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
Thanks anyway Nick, and a special thanks for your generous sharing of this excellent shot!

And yes, they were certainly taken the same day: the same water pool is under "Schwarze 8"...

Cheers
Marc

Marc-André Haldimann 23rd August 2012 23:51

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
Thanks to Peter D. Evans, over on LEMB, there might be fresh food for thought about the unknown training unit which trained the Italian pilots of I. Gruppo Caccia ANR, and the aborted III. Gruppo Caccia ANR in early 1945:
http://www.luftwaffe-experten.org/fo...opic=15903&hl=

http://www.flickr.com/photos/2809206...in/photostream

This pic shows a Bf 109 G-6 W.Nr. unknown "Rote (?) 47" from this unknown training unit. Note also in the background "Schwarze 33", maybe also from this same unit (or an EJG 1 plane like those at Mühldorf and Maxglan?). Started by Franck, a thread was already devoted to the identification of this unit in TOCH:
http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/archiv...p?t-23517.html
It's fantasy designation of JFS 14 could be definitely put to rest by Ferdinando and Nick as a blatant case of misinterpretation, and the FFS B 1 unit designation has been suggested but not confirmed. At the hand of those two new machines, is there any further suggestion or information?
Cheers
Marc

veltro 24th August 2012 09:17

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
I am at a loss here.

The phrase (appeared in the LEMB thread)
Quote:

(...) an unknown training unit, sometimes referred as FFSB1, which, among others, trained the pilots of I. Gruppo Caccia ANR between October 1944 and the first week of January 1945
make it looks like it was widely known that "FFS B1" was the unit that trained the ANR pilots in Holzkirchen.

Maybe I'm starting to suffer from loss of memory, but to me this wasn't a granted fact, as all the Italian documents and accounts available never mention the name of such unit, as the whole activity in Holzkirchen was devoted to training and Italian pilots always associated their training to the airfield, rather than to a particular unit.

Add to this (my fault) that my knowledge of Luftwaffe training units is next to zero, so there is how the whole picture developed...

I am certainly happy to collect such new info and photographs, but I a bit wary that assumptions could have been made through the whole process without too many confirmations. For instance, it escapes my mind how these two Bf 109s (47 & 33) could be connected somehow to the "white 7", even considering only the different way and style of application of the code.

But, as already underlined, in this field I'm nothing more than a student, so...

Marc-André Haldimann 24th August 2012 09:27

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
My bad formulation on LEMB, Ferdinando; I had no chance to reformulate it as I could here.....

As for the core issue, I'm a student like you, but in ALL matters;-)). I just reacted to the hight tactical numbers and the fact those two planes were found in Holzkirchen. A bit thin by itself, but maybe it will lead one of our more knowledgeable friends to find out something new... That's my hope

Cheers
Marc

veltro 24th August 2012 10:41

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
I do certainly share and enjoy your enthusiasm, Marc (that's what brought us your incredible photo-archive on late Bf 109s...), however, it seems that on this topic, we are crossing the border between facts and "wishful thinking".

Maybe I'm a bit an "old school" guy, but would have been a lot better to formulate your legitimate thoughts and guesses as a question, rather than as a (seemingly) fact that may be quoted elsewhere, like I did...

Just my two cents, no offense intended.

Marc-André Haldimann 24th August 2012 22:52

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
Point taken Ferdinando. I love those exchanges because this is the driving force behind research: hypothesis and contradiction. Once those processes are done, there remains the accepted fact. This is not the case here, and I fully understand that FFS B1 cannot be surmised in any way to be the unit which trained the ANR pilots. I also precise that the way I formulated my remark on LEMB was a first stage of thought - formulating the hypothesis without the necessary caution - that I didn't update since; will do it though right now.

I will ofc change the formulation into a question, and cross my fingers new documents might shed light for those Holzkirchen machines.
Thanks again for your highly valued assessment and necessary criticism, Ferdinando: they are much needed.

Cheers
Marc

ouidjat 25th August 2012 06:51

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
Hello Marc and Ferdinando,

Won't back on "White 7" thread ... But
I just got that Jagdwaffe Vol 5 Sec. 2, "War in the east 1944-1945" by Bergström and Pegg where we can find both "Weisse 7" and "Weisse 24" both linked with ROA ...
Comments about these captions? (Ferdinando, I'm sure your caption is well documented, don't take it bad)

... And, of course, what about that Yellow "+ - 2 -"; still in ROA perspective ?..
(Here on work site they call me "Pitbull" :o I don't lose my bone!)

Regards, Franck.

veltro 25th August 2012 11:51

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by ouidjat (Post 153593)
I just got that Jagdwaffe Vol 5 Sec. 2, "War in the east 1944-1945" by Bergström and Pegg where we can find both "Weisse 7" and "Weisse 24" both linked with ROA ...
Comments about these captions? (Ferdinando, I'm sure your caption is well documented, don't take it bad)

Why should I?

Educated guesswork can do a lot of good and a lot of bad, depending on how solid is the evidence, and the phrase in the caption of the "white 7" photo "...W.Nr.464463 is unusual in having a tactical number behind the fuselage Nalkenkreuz. It may therefore have been assigned to ROA..." is an exemplification of that.

The underlined word is the key.

Had the authors already seen the photograph of the same plane (and there are no doubts that it is the same, as no two Luftwaffe Bf 109s have the same camouflage spots, combined to the unusually placed aircraft number and its unusual shape...) in Holzkirchen, would they have drawn up the same conclusion?

I seriously doubt so.

So we have educated guesswork lacking all the info or - at least - one part of the info and making an hypothetical deduction which was based on one single photo.

We, instead have two images of W.Nr. 464463 (you can check them side by side, if you want). Would you drew up the same conclusion...?


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