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-   -   Late war Bf 109 pictures source (http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/showthread.php?t=27108)

ouidjat 25th August 2012 12:41

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by veltro (Post 153603)
Why should I?
combined to the unusually placed aircraft number and its unusual shape...) in Holzkirchen, would they have drawn up the same conclusion?

I seriously doubt so.

So we have educated guesswork lacking all the info or - at least - one part of the info and making an hypothetical deduction which was based on one single photo.

We, instead have two images of W.Nr. 464463 (you can check them side by side, if you want). Would you drew up the same conclusion...?

Thanks Ferdinando. :)

Marc-André Haldimann 25th August 2012 21:35

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
An exceptional picture, courtesy of Richey4Real, over on LEMB:
http://www.luftwaffe-experten.org/fo...opic=16327&hl=

It does show a gaggle of late-war Bf 109's, listed as follows, from left to the right:

- Bf 109 G-10 or G-14/AS WNr. unknown, "Schwarze 19", II./JG unknown. As the camouflage points, after a closer look, it is a Mtt-Regensburg produced machine. This is also confirmed, if one looks closely, by the last four digits of its WNr. repeated just above the II Gruppe bar. Try as I wish, I can't read them... But this makes me think we might have in fact a Bf109G-14/AS here instead of one of the handfuls Mtt built Bf109 G-10's...

- Bf 109 K-4 WNr. and unit unknown. This is the machine which the front part of the fuselage and the right wing, with the expanded wing bulge, can be seen behind "Schwarze 19"

- Fw 190 A or Fw 190 F WNr. unknown "Schwarze 11", unit unknown.

- Bf 109 G-6 or Bf 109 G-14, no other details to be seen. This is the plane we see pointed towards the photographer. Note the old style cowling bulges on the engine cowling dumped on the ground near its port wing.

- Bf 109 G-14 WNr. unknown "Weisse 12", 1./ JG unknown. The camouflage speaks for a Mtt-Regensburg built Bf09 G-14 in the 780000 - 785000 WNr. range. There are two RV color bands; only the one in front is to be fully seen; its dark color, combined with the medium get tone to be seen on the picture can match with JG5 (black and yellow). No Staffel of this unit is known to have been based anywhere else but Norway in 1945, so this is a tough nut to verify... That is unless the colors are those of JG 7, for which no known Bf109G has been documented so far.

- Bf109 G-10 WNr. 150.67, unit unknown. We see only the mutilated tail and the fortunately almost intact rudder which still sports five of the 6 WNr. digit.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/2809206...in/photostream

Any idea about the BF 109 G-14 "Weisse 12" unit? I do see the RV two bands as black/yellow (JG 5) or Blue/Red (JG 7)...both would be a real surprise.

Cheers
Marc

Marc-André Haldimann 9th September 2012 00:09

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
Folks,
I just chanced on a pack of 9 unknown to me photos depicting the Bf 109 G-10's from II./JG 52 which landed 8 May 1945 at Neubiberg, the thread below as an example:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/2809206...in/photostream

Also many other Bf 109 G and K wrecks at location unknown, the thread below as an example:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/2809206...in/photostream

They all stem from this quite fantastic even if old thread over on wehrmacht.awards.com:
http://www.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...d.php?t=107900
Prominent about the wrecks are a dozen+ yet unpublished pictures of Brunnthal's collection point...

Enjoy
Marc

Marc-André Haldimann 14th September 2012 08:46

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
Thanks to Tomas Prusa, I'm able to present a new and very informative picture of Bf 109 G-6 "Schwarze 27" 2./JG 3, said to have been taken near Coremilles-en-Vexin after US take over in Summer 1944. This picture shows not only the fuselage but also the dismantled right wing stored nearby, and the tailplane propped up awkwardly against the rear fuselage.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/2809206...in/photostream

Another picture of "Schwarze 27" is published in Prien and Rodeike 1995, p. 134. This new picture show it's not standing alone. We can see another half dismantled DB 605 lying in front of the plane's engine and a still crated BMW 801 on its left. The tall concrete pillar in the back speaks of an hangar which part of the metallic structure lies twisted in a heap on the ground, on the far left of the picture.

Collection Thomas Barnes.



an

ouidjat 15th September 2012 07:17

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
Hi Guys,

Ah, that one!
Cormeilles sounds good since JG 2 was flying Fw 190A down there during the same indicated time frame. Not I./ JG 3.
Schwarze 27 did came necessarily from another place (Frières, closest by crow flight) and made a belly landing?
What's Prien's picture source, US or LW crew? makes a strong difference.

Cheers, Franck.

ouidjat 15th September 2012 07:36

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
hmmmm...
I'm afraid that's not enough! That DB 605 doesn't plead for Cormeilles I'm afraid.
Left Fl.Pl. Frières and JG 4 or JG 5 for that BMW 801.
Here we have all the items in same time frame.

unikum 15th September 2012 16:54

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
Prototype K detail photos
http://www.ebay.de/sch/m.html?item=1...&_skc=50&rt=nc

interest is personal PM40 gun.....only maket wood

Marc-André Haldimann 15th September 2012 17:46

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
Many many thanks, Unikum!

I appreciate this extraordinary serie.

Marc

ouidjat 16th September 2012 10:17

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
Hi Marc and Guys,

Sure these picture are quite interesting. Ed did say in his daily chronicle that He never saw these pictures - dated 9th of August 1943 at WNF - before.
Well:
Here is one link:
http://www.me109.info/display.php?a=e&fid=7024
and source:
http://www.me109.info/display-quelle.php?id=22 published in 1999.
Personnally I downloaded them on 1 May 2009 on net. :D

"Galland" hood is quite amazing.

Cheers, Franck.

Marc-André Haldimann 16th September 2012 12:55

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
Thanks Franck for you precisions. Which chronicles of Ed are you talking about?

Cheers
Marc

ouidjat 16th September 2012 13:23

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
Hi Marc,

One of his last two eBay listing ...
No offense Ed I just didn't want to put the same comment in two different threads.

Nevertheless, if the whole serie is amazing, it's nothing more than a Bf109G used as full scale model. No K undercarriage, no K radiator ... A Bf 109 K-0? I doubt. An installation trial for DB 605 D, yes, with some other new devices too; specially in August 1943.
A given WNr. should have been more satisfying.

Cheers, Franck.

Marc-André Haldimann 16th September 2012 13:34

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
Looks like the "32" digits on the fuselage might be the last two ones from the original W.Nr. of this G-6. Interestingly, the type of streamlined engine bulges to be seen closely match the solution retained from late 1944 by IAR Brasov for their newly assembled Bf 109's

Thanks for your precisions, Franck!
Marc

Nick Beale 16th September 2012 15:51

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
Aren't these the same pictures that appeared in the JaPo book "Messerschmitt Bf 109K" (pages 2-5)?

Marc-André Haldimann 16th September 2012 16:13

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
Nick,

You're correct: most of the pictures are published in Janda and Poruba 1997, p. 2-12. They date probably from September 1943; WNF was building by then this mock-up for sending it to for presentation to the employees of E-Stelle Rechlin. The prototype is known to have been at Rechlin by 10 October 1943.

Source: Janda and Poruba 1997, Messerschmitt Bf 109K, JaPo, p. 77.

ouidjat 16th September 2012 20:57

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
[quote=ouidjat;154776]Hi Marc,

An installation trial for DB 605 D, yes, with some other new devices too; specially in August 1943.
quote]

Hi Guys,

Did I write this?
Sorry...
Whatever, I would like to know how authors from both cited books did get the info it was some Bf 109 K mock-up?
The more I look for the pictures, the more I look - with the few I have - for production batches, the more I tend to think it's a Bf109G-4 used for WNF experiments for Bf 109 G-6 own production; 19093 to 20800.
That some features were used in later Bf109k production, why not.
As Marc wrote, cowling is closer to IAR production than Bf 109 K ones.

Cheers, Franck.

Mermet 17th September 2012 09:17

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by ouidjat (Post 152427)
That? Effectively looks like a dump in background;1946? Thank U

Hi,

Your photo shows a Bf 109 G-10 from Erla (look at the square streamlining between engine and fuselage. The engine is a DB 605 D (letter D on top) and R6 was PKS 12 for the Bf 109 G-10 (and K-4) only. From Prien and Rodeicke, underwing MG 151-equipped Bf 109 were simply "Gunboats"...

JCM

RolandF 17th September 2012 10:22

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
First photographs appear in "Wernfried Haberfellner/Walter Schroeder: Wiener Neustädter Flugzeugwerke - Entstehung, Aufbau und Niedergang eines Flugzeugwerkes", 3.Auflage 1999, p. 116, 117 and 124 with the caption "Entwicklungbüro Messerschmitt: Mustereinbauten"
No mention of any K-Variant.
WNF used to paint the last digits of the WNr on the fuselage sides. The 2nd, small, rectangle on the fuselage might be a work sheet protected by a transparent plastic foil with leather frame. Can be seen also on other production photos.
The tail unit was produced seperately by WNF in different production hangars and were already prepainted. As there are no wings attached it seems to be a fuselage unit taken directly from the production lines to test several new features.

Regards

Fran

the_ivan 17th September 2012 11:11

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
[quote=ouidjat;154802]
Quote:

Originally Posted by ouidjat (Post 154776)
Hi Marc,

An installation trial for DB 605 D, yes, with some other new devices too; specially in August 1943.
quote]

Hi Guys,

Did I write this?
Sorry...
Whatever, I would like to know how authors from both cited books did get the info it was some Bf 109 K mock-up?
The more I look for the pictures, the more I look - with the few I have - for production batches, the more I tend to think it's a Bf109G-4 used for WNF experiments for Bf 109 G-6 own production; 19093 to 20800.
That some features were used in later Bf109k production, why not.
As Marc wrote, cowling is closer to IAR production than Bf 109 K ones.

Cheers, Franck.

Photos clearly show it has a DB 605 A, but with a refined cowling for MG 131 bumps similar to the one tested by Mtt AG in W.Nr. 16476 on April 43.

The cockpit seems clearly a mock-up: GM-1 equipment, pressure valves for pressurization, electrical panel wooden mock-up similar to the one adopted in K-series, MK 108, etc.

Since WNF was tasked with development o 109 series, and the first planned variants were to be equipped with DB 605 A in pressurized and unpressurized form (K-2 and K-1), and E-Stelle inspected a "109K" in WNF, the identification of these photos as K prototype/mock-up seems a case of 1+1...

ouidjat 17th September 2012 12:45

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
Thanks Ivan and Fran,

So I wasn't that wrong concerning "mock-up name" and It could be a DB 605 D (or AS) without big supercharger, but a prototype engine ...
I received full comments home. Let me translate it... Unless the author wants to put them himself!!

Regards, Franck.

ouidjat 17th September 2012 12:50

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Mermet (Post 154827)
Hi,

Your photo shows a Bf 109 G-10 from Erla (look at the square streamlining between engine and fuselage. The engine is a DB 605 D (letter D on top) and R6 was PKS 12 for the Bf 109 G-10 (and K-4) only. From Prien and Rodeicke, underwing MG 151-equipped Bf 109 were simply "Gunboats"...

JCM

I agree 100% with your comment JCM. I even wrote it in that thread, another post ... Or must be as comment in Marc-André Flickr photostream :D. Good to remind it whatever, thank you.

Regards, Franck.

Marc-André Haldimann 18th September 2012 18:50

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
Hi there Franck, Roland, mermet and The_Ivan,

Back from a field trip in the Alps, I read all your comments and thank you for them. As a matter of synthesis, I feel now pretty safe thinking this fuselage is a WNF Bf 109 G-6 with those layout prototype "Beulen" and other improvements like the rear fuselage access and fuel filler point similar to the future Bf 109 K-4 model.

It can't be an Erla fuselage with the flat lateral panel under the left windshield mating up with the bigger bulge, mermet, as clearly shown on all exterior pictures. So back to basics, alias Bf 109 G-6;-))

Thanks for all your inputs
Marc

Marc-André Haldimann 21st September 2012 09:22

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
Folks,

I need your help for this color shot taken in Autmun 1943 in the Erla plant:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/2809206...in/photostream

Two points are of high interest:

- The fuselage stencilled W.Nr's were only up kept for production records. After BAL, the RLM allotted definitve W.Nr.'s. What were those for the W.Nr. 32 069- through 32 080 we can see in this picture?

- What colors were used for those fuselages? Is the tailplane RLM 76 and the fuselage RLM 65?

Thanks in advance
Marc

Charles Bavarois 21st September 2012 14:35

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
Hello Marc,

these aircraft were part of a block with Erla-Werknummern running from
311 32069 to 311 32100. They were renumbered to RLM Werknummer 410.672 to 410.703.
All were Bf 109 G-6s with acceptance dates in the second half of November 1943.

As for the colors: What's about tropical Farbton 78 for the fuselage?

Regards

Carl

Marc-André Haldimann 21st September 2012 19:20

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
Hallo Carl!

Many thanks for your thorough reply; great to know the RLM W.Nr.'s.

As for the color, I didn't think of RLM 78. IS this your hypothesis or a known fact? I always thought that those Erla batches were overall RLM 76 as they left their parent plant.

Thanks again!
Marc

unikum 22nd September 2012 18:16

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
http://www.ebay.de/itm/Wehrmacht-Fot...item19d5643e5b

Charles Bavarois 22nd September 2012 19:59

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
1 Attachment(s)
Hello Marc,

the color 78 is a hypothesis based on color fotos taken at the same time and now in the possession of the Stiftung Preussischer Staatsbesitz. I have no other docmented proof for this color. Rasmussen may have some information on the amount of paint available at Erla storages.

Please have a look at the attached foto (source: online-catalogue of Preussischer Kulturbesitz). It shows a Bf 109 from the 33.0xx Werknummernblock with the fuselage in a rich blue color. The hue of the blue ist quite different to even fresh Farbton 65 and not as pale as Farbton 76. Also interesting is the sand-colored filler to the taiplane fin.

I don't think, that the aircraft were delivered to Luftwaffe showing this color. In fall 1943 Bf 109s at Erla Leipzig obviously left the final-assembly line with semi-finished paintwork and after that were taken to the paint-shop. Please have a look at the foto on page 118 of Jochen Priens "Bf 109 F, G & K Series" showing such an aircraft prior to applying a neat full 74/75/76 camoflage scheme. This is quite different to the situation later in 1944/45, when already pepainted subassemblies were attached to the airframe without much care for blening the diffent colors.

HTH

Carl

Marc-André Haldimann 23rd September 2012 00:14

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
Hallo Carl,

Very interesting; with the other photo, obviously taken at the same time, the contrast is event stronger between the RLM 76 tailplane and the blue fuselage... As for the overall RLM 76 color mentioned , I was thinking of those Erla built Bf 109 G-6 which were meant to become "Höhenjägern" and left Erla in this overall light gray tone for Erla VII at Antwerpen in order to have their DB 605/AS fitted and then be taken on charge by 2./JG 3, like exemplified by "Schwarze 27", among others:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/2809206...57625486305536
http://www.flickr.com/photos/2809206...57625486305536

As for the "normal process", the picture of W.Nr. 33 085 is most informative indeed (Prien and Rodeike 1995, p. 118).... Thanks Carl!

Finally, it is interesting to see such a variety of blue hues (RLM 65, RLM 76, RLM 78 and the currently much publicized RLM 83 which we know - thanks to Rasmussen - was not on the paint inventory of Erla). I never noticed this until now.

Thanks again, Carl
Marc

Marc-André Haldimann 24th September 2012 10:12

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by unikum (Post 155155)

Many thanks Unikum!
Marc

unikum 26th September 2012 15:54

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
....

unikum 26th September 2012 15:58

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
......

Marc-André Haldimann 26th September 2012 17:08

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
Many thanks Unikum!

I saw them on LEMB this morning, and they are already uploaded. A very interesting sequence of photographs I detailed a bit in this LEMB thread.
http://www.luftwaffe-experten.org/fo...opic=16585&hl=

Former property of Heinz Riedinger, some of them were already posted by Falcon in his excellent messerschmitt109.de site. This much more complete serie, taken in January 1945 at Wertheim (remember the Bodenwöhr Bf 109 K-4 thread in November 2008?) shows clearly the W.Nr. of Bf 109 G-14/AS W.Nr. 785 102, rebuilt by Fiesler Werke as a Bf 109 G-14; it has been or will be test flown (BAL Abnahme Flug) by Fiesler pilot Anton Riedinger.

Another Bf 109 G-14 can be seen and a Bf 109 G-6 too with Riedinger getting out of it's cockpit (fleece lined flight jacket).

W.Nr. 785 102 is exceptionally interesting as it exemplifies the "rebuild at all costs" policy of the German war industry at that time:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/2809206...in/photostream

It is a perfect match for Bf 109 G-6 W.Nr. 163 824, conserved in Canberra, which was similarly rebuilt and still sports nowadays the propeller of W.Nr.441 039... and it's original patchwork camouflage.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/2809206...57625360814585
http://www.flickr.com/photos/2809206...7625360814585/

The last pic show an Erla built Bf 109 G-6 which Stkz "VP+??" indicates a W.Nr 410 847 - 410 896, 411 058 - 411 064, 411 071 or 411 097 - 411 117 batch machine (source: LEMB Stkz database).

Thanks again Unikum, I appreciate your help.
Marc

Oberst 26th September 2012 17:22

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
Actually, the Riedinger set machine which W.Nr. is to be read is 785'192. The upper part of the 7 is faintly visible above the hatted onlooker 's shoulder, whilst the 8 is partly blotted out by the man's shoulder, a snowflake doing the trick to transform the 9 into a pseudo 0...
This machine is thus a Regensburg built Bf 109 G-14, W.Nr. 785 192, as said depicted by Anton Riedinger, at the RLM Abnahme, Wertheim, in January 1945.

Marc-André Haldimann 26th September 2012 17:38

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Oberst (Post 155319)
Actually, the Riedinger set machine which W.Nr. is to be read is 785'192. The upper part of the 7 is faintly visible above the hatted onlooker 's shoulder, whilst the 8 is partly blotted out by the man's shoulder, a snowflake doing the trick to transform the 9 into a pseudo 0...
This machine is thus a Regensburg built Bf 109 G-14, W.Nr. 785 192, as said depicted by Anton Riedinger, at the RLM Abnahme, Wertheim, in January 1945.

Hallo Oberst,

The quality of the provided pics are much better the the ones known before. If you check the following attachments of Unikum, you can see on this one the two first digits 78:
http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/attach...8&d=1348667671

and on this one five out of the six digits; the fifth is clearly a "0"
http://www.luftwaffe-experten.org/fo...ttach_id=40803

Cheers
Marc

Rasmussen 26th September 2012 19:58

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Marc-André Haldimann (Post 155316)
This much more complete serie, taken in January 1945 at Wertheim (remember the Bodenwöhr Bf 109 K-4 thread in November 2008?) shows clearly the W.Nr. of Bf 109 G-14/AS W.Nr. 785 102, rebuilt by Fiesler Werke as a Bf 109 G-14; it has been or will be test flown (BAL Abnahme Flug) by Fiesler pilot Anton Riedinger.

Maybe my copy of his logbook Nr.16 is incomplete but I couldn't find any W.Nr. 785102 between 28.11.1944 - 23.03.1945 (flight number 1521 - 1574).

Best regards
Rasmussen

Marc-André Haldimann 26th September 2012 22:01

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Rasmussen (Post 155330)
Maybe my copy of his logbook Nr.16 is incomplete but I couldn't find any W.Nr. 785102 between 28.11.1944 - 23.03.1945 (flight number 1521 - 1574).

Best regards
Rasmussen


Hallo Rasmussen!

Maybe he didn't test fly W.Nr. 785102; the only sure fact is that he was photographed in front of it... and that this particular plane was W.Nr. 785102.

MfG
Marc

Oberst 26th September 2012 22:23

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
If thats the case then I don't think theres '7' in front at all. '8' Looks more like nine and could very well be Gyor built Me109G-6/Y.
Not saying for sure, but possibilty.

Marc-André Haldimann 26th September 2012 22:54

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
Hallo Oberst,

You have the "7" just above the head of the "t" of Kopierschutz in the first pic I linked in post 353; just behind of it you have a full "8" to see... The latter is also clearly seen in the second pic of the same post.

Cheers
Marc

unikum 27th September 2012 20:18

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
Know???

unikum 27th September 2012 20:18

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
....

unikum 27th September 2012 20:28

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
......


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