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Luftwaffe and Allied Air Forces Discussion Forum (http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/index.php)

- Luftwaffe and Axis Air Forces (http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/forumdisplay.php?f=8)

- - eBay: German intrest (http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/showthread.php?t=49508)

peter.werry

19th April 2018 09:27

Re: eBay: German intrest

#359 item 19 is a Macchi C.205V probably from II/JG77.
Regards
Peter

PMoz99

19th April 2018 09:41

Re: eBay: German intrest

In post 359, #19 is a Macchi C.205. Joachim Deicke apparently flew one with 6./JG77 in Dec 1943. II. Gruppe was the only one with c.205's. Could this photo be examples from II./JG77, despite the horizontal dash not being present? Or was there another Luftwaffe unit which flew the C.205?
Peter

Snautzer

19th April 2018 13:12

Re: eBay: German intrest

Quote:

Originally Posted by PMoz99 (Post 250854)

I'm OK with the cooks eyeing off the chicken, but I'm not so sure I'd be that happy if my unit cook was holding a dog!!
Peter

Must be one of the Korean chaps enlisted in the Luftwaffe then.

peter.werry

20th April 2018 04:55

Re: eBay: German intrest

#359, Further to my post #361 and Peter's #362, in late September 1943 Major Feytag's II/JG77 moved to the Aeromacchi factory at Lonate Pozzolo and spent October converting to the MacchiC.205V. In early November, the gruppe relocated to Lagnasco and became operational, but by late Decenber, the gruppe handed their 205's to 1 Gruppo Caccia of the ANR and received Bf109G-6 replacements. In early January 44, 5/ & 6/ transferred to Caselle with 4/ going to Levadigi. The 6/ staffelkaptan Ltn. Deicke flew 'yellow1' MM92224 with the horizontal yellow bar of 6 staffel. The whole story is covered in pages 40-44 of the French magazine Aero Journal No.36 of April/May 2004 by Enrico Leproni. I do not know of any other Luftwaffe combat unit flying theC.205, but perhaps it was used by training units?.
Regards
Peter

Stig Jarlevik

20th April 2018 07:16

Re: eBay: German intrest

Interesting Peter

Enrico Leproni wrote a short article about this already in Aerofan 85 (Apr-June 2003 issue).
He claims Lt Deicke flew MM92212.
There is indeed a photo showing MM92212 in German markings, but the angle is such that no tactical code digit is visible. However the bar after the German cross seems to be yellow, so I would say it was at least a 6.St aircraft.

Since I don't have Aero Journal can you elaborate a bit? Any photo proof of MM92224 being 'gelbe 1' for example?

Cheers
Stig

Nick Beale

20th April 2018 08:13

Re: eBay: German intrest

You can find the Stab/JG 77 war diary entries for use of the C.205 in November/December 1943 here: http://www.ghostbombers.com/JG77/jg77_01.html

peter.werry

20th April 2018 08:20

Re: eBay: German intrest

#365, You are absolutely correct Stig as I made an error as Dieke's a/c was MM92212 not MM92224 which was Uffz. Schwarz. The photo introducing the AJ article is clearly marked as MM92212 with horizontal bar but no code digit is visible (so probably the same photo you have). The photo states that it was taken at Lonate Pozzolo and taken from 2 o'clock position. Other serials identified in the article are: 92215 Uffz. Soltman of 6/, 92217 of Uffz.Breuser of 5/, 92218 of Uffz.Funke 'Yellow4'of 6/, 92247 of ? 'Yellow17' of 6/, 92221 no more details and 92224 of Uffz. Schwarz.There is no photographic evidence that 92212 carried a yellow 1, but as Ltn. Joachim Diecke was the staffelkapitan, perhaps it is a supposition of E.Leproni.
Sorry for the initial incorrect posting
Regards
Peter

Stig Jarlevik

20th April 2018 08:40

Re: eBay: German intrest

Thanks Peter (and Nick)

Leproni identifies MM92209, 92212-213, 92215, 92217-225, 92244, 92247 as certain deliveries.
So in all probability II./JG 77 received the whole range. No deliveries went south and with ANR's 1 Gruppo under formation there was little else for the production to go until the latter was ready late Dec 1943/early Jan 1944.

Just out of curiosity, who was the author in Aero Journal?

Cheers
Stig

PMoz99

20th April 2018 09:26

Re: eBay: German intrest

1 Attachment(s)

Quote:

Originally Posted by peter.werry (Post 250896)

I have a poor copy of a photo of a C.205v yellow 1 supposedly from Dec 1943 (assuming it was not photoshopped), perhaps after the C.205's were handed back to the Italians. The paint forward of the white theatre band suggests the german cross has been painted out, but then again, it's not a great quality copy so it might just be an illusion. The smoke rings on the tail also appear to have a blank spot, like maybe a swastika has been overpainted.
The serial number's last 2 digits aren't decipherable. The 22 in the middle seems clear, but the last 2 just don't look like 12 to me. What do you guys think? Could it be 2212? Could it be Deicke's a/c after it was handed back? The info I have suggests it was flown by Marco Mannoni late Dec 1943.
Attached copy of photo.
Peter

peter.werry

20th April 2018 11:09

Re: eBay: German intrest

#368 the author of the Aero Journal article is Enrico Leproni, Stig, the same author of the AeroFan article.
#369 Leproni in AJ says that in late December43 MM92212 was taken from Deicke and given to Capitano Marco Marinone who removed the German markings so your photo, Peter, could indicate that MM92212 carried a yellow 1 whilst with 6/JG77.
Regards
Peter

Stig Jarlevik

20th April 2018 14:26

Re: eBay: German intrest

Thanks Peter x 2

I agree only MM922 is readable, but I am of the opinion that the last two are so fuzzy they cannot be determined at all. No point in guessing.
Since at least I have no reason to question Leproni's research, I have put Deicke as the user of MM92212 with a note it needs 100% confirmation.

However the photo is in ANR colours and so no longer used by Deicke and since the hand over was on 31.12.1943 the photo must be from Jan 1944 (and onwards)

Cheers
Stig

Nick Beale

20th April 2018 15:48

Re: eBay: German intrest

I have a poor copy of a photo of a C.205v yellow 1 supposedly from Dec 1943

There are photos of "yellow 1" in D'Amico and Valentini's "Camouflage and Markings of the Aeronautica Nazionale Repubblicana, 1943–1945" (Classic, 2005). It is given there as MM 92212: you can just make out the last two digits in one of the six photos and the Gruppe bar is visible on the port side.

PMoz99

20th April 2018 16:57

Re: eBay: German intrest

Thanks for your input guys.

edwest2

21st April 2018 02:24

Re: eBay: German intrest

Flugbuch - copy

https://www.ebay.de/itm/Flugbuch-Kur...8AAOSwdIBa2iGO

https://www.ebay.de/itm/Flugbuch-K-K...0AAOSwzRFaj9mZ

https://www.ebay.de/itm/Flugbuch-Sep...cAAOSwitRa1mN9

Off topic

https://www.ebay.de/itm/Wappen-Maili...kAAOSwHhRa2LUg

edwest2

22nd April 2018 02:51

Re: eBay: German intrest

https://www.ebay.de/itm/C798-Foto-We...kAAOSw1Fda2boA

https://www.ebay.de/itm/Foto-Luftwaf...UAAOSw4J5a23wj

https://www.ebay.de/itm/Foto-Luftwaf...EAAOSwgAJa239x

https://www.ebay.de/itm/top-flugzeug...cAAOSwmp1azH6R

Flugbuch - copy

https://www.ebay.de/itm/Flugbuch-Erw...IAAOSw~u5a22cd

Snautzer

22nd April 2018 13:44

Re: eBay: German intrest

nice ones Ed ( i put them here again for code and pilot)

He111-B3+KP 6./KG54 -Besatzung-Lt-Franz-Gottschling-1940 https://www.ebay.de/itm/Foto-Luftwaf...UAAOSw4J5a23wj
He111-B3+KP 6./KG54 -Besatzung-Lt-Franz-Gottschling-1940 https://www.ebay.de/itm/Foto-Luftwaf...EAAOSwgAJa239x

Snautzer

22nd April 2018 14:04

Re: eBay: German intrest

Loire 130 German markings https://www.ebay.de/itm/selt-Archiv-...sAAOSw~y9ZBKfv

edwest2

22nd April 2018 18:37

Re: eBay: German intrest

Copy

https://www.ebay.de/itm/Deutsches-Fl....c100005.m1851

Off topic

https://www.ebay.de/itm/Foto-Technik...wAAOSwoQ1TnDeq

https://www.ebay.de/itm/Foto-Schild-...cAAOSwc-tY4P1H

Snautzer

22nd April 2018 21:38

Re: eBay: German intrest

Bf109 Abschussbalken Russland-1941 https://www.ebay.de/itm/Messerschmit...8AAOSwxQha3NiO

Snautzer

27th April 2018 12:58

Re: eBay: German intrest

Afrika-Schwimmweste-1-model https://www.ebay.de/itm/foto-2-weltk...YAAOSwRUhY9Io~
Me110 emblem ? https://www.ebay.de/itm/Foto-Luftwaf...AAAOSw~vpaDbes

edwest2

28th April 2018 03:42

Re: eBay: German intrest

Photo album

https://www.ebay.de/itm/Fotoalbum-84...4AAOSwXI5a4Ol0

Flugbuch - copy

Off topic

https://www.ebay.de/itm/Foto-U-Boot-...gAAOSw43Ba4hHH

https://www.ebay.de/itm/orig-negativ...kAAOSwwdxavTM9

https://www.ebay.de/itm/Foto-Panzer-...8AAOSwiUpa4K9q

Snautzer

28th April 2018 12:45

Re: eBay: German intrest

Russian Beute Yak UT 1 Veru rarely seen in this cammo (nice one Ed!) https://www.ebay.de/itm/FOTO-BEUTE-F...MAAOSwh4Ra317l
FW58 WL-IHFN-mit-dem-Wappen-der-I-KG-26-1939-40 https://www.ebay.de/itm/Foto-Luftwaf...EAAOSwkRha42V9
Me-109-F-Stab-JG-51-Kommodore- Werner-Molders -Rusland-1941 https://www.ebay.de/itm/Foto-Luftwaf...0AAOSwozxa42HP

edwest2

28th April 2018 17:57

Re: eBay: German intrest

Thanks, Snautzer.

Ed

edwest2

28th April 2018 19:29

Re: eBay: German intrest

Documents plus a few photos

https://www.emedals.com/newly-listed...uard-lindinger

Snautzer

29th April 2018 11:44

Re: eBay: German intrest

Udet U 12 Flamingo D-1361 https://www.ebay.de/itm/Foto-Flugzeu...gAAOSwkVxa5YQK

Snautzer

3rd May 2018 12:32

Re: eBay: German intrest

U460-Bremen-Focke-Wulf-F-19-ENTE https://www.ebay.de/itm/U460-Bremen-...kAAOSw7tVa6Ywz
U460-Bremen-Focke-Wulf-F-19-ENTE in the air https://www.ebay.de/itm/U462-Bremen-...kAAOSwX1Za6Yzv
U460-Bremen-Focke-Wulf-F-19-ENTE frontal https://www.ebay.de/itm/U461-Bremen-...sAAOSwX1Za6Yy9
Flugplatz-Bremen-Flugzeug-Focke-Wulf-A-16-d-Dortmund-Kennung-D-1129 https://www.ebay.de/itm/U454-Flugpla...wAAOSw1Fda6Yhu

weird and wonderful

edwest2

3rd May 2018 21:46

Re: eBay: German intrest

Snautzer

3rd May 2018 21:54

Re: eBay: German intrest

Ed, your first eBay find see http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/showpo...&postcount=283

Fw189 nach 1000.Feindflug der 11.(H) Aufkl.Gr.12 https://www.ebay.de/itm/Foto-Militar...QAAOSwc95a6wsv

edwest2

3rd May 2018 22:36

Re: eBay: German intrest

Thanks Snautzer.

Ed

edwest2

5th May 2018 01:59

Re: eBay: German intrest

Snautzer

8th May 2018 13:25

Re: eBay: German intrest

Caproni-Ca314-B german marking https://www.ebay.de/itm/2x-Foto-Luft...AAAOSwkQxa8Jsb
Caproni-Ca314-B german marking https://www.ebay.de/itm/3x-Foto-Luft...IAAOSwyKta8Jw6
Do17 emblem https://www.ebay.de/itm/Foto-Luftwaf...wAAOSwgcVa8JbS
Do17 emblem (see 3) notice 2nd MG stand https://www.ebay.de/itm/Foto-Luftwaf...gAAOSwRZ1a8JVp

edwest2

8th May 2018 18:01

Re: eBay: German intrest

https://www.ebay.de/itm/2x-Foto-Luft...75.c100623.m-1

https://www.ebay.de/itm/Foto-Luftwaf...75.c100623.m-1

https://www.ebay.de/itm/2x-Foto-Luft...75.c100623.m-1

https://www.ebay.de/itm/Foto-Luftwaf...4AAOSwX1la8b1a

Nick Beale

8th May 2018 20:07

Re: eBay: German intrest

Caproni-Ca314-B german marking https://www.ebay.de/itm/2x-Foto-Luft...AAAOSwkQxa8Jsb

It looks like 4X+BL and if that is the code, it belonged to 3./NSGr. 7. It would be logical, Lovro Persen's book on the unit mentioned Capronis 4X+AL and CL.

jednastka

9th May 2018 01:38

Re: eBay: German intrest

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snautzer (Post 251691)

Caproni-Ca314-B german marking https://www.ebay.de/itm/2x-Foto-Luft...AAAOSwkQxa8Jsb

Am I seeing things? Looking at the bottom photo, it appears the Caproni main gear can steer! Is that correct?

Vic

Snautzer

10th May 2018 22:02

Re: eBay: German intrest

Me 109 F 9./JG 51 Ofw. Edmund Wagner https://www.ebay.de/itm/Foto-Luftwaf...gAAOSwFq1a9ITo
Ju 87 B-1 NG+HT WNr.0289 I./StS.1 Wertheim 30.8.1941 https://www.ebay.de/itm/Foto-Luftwaf...wAAOSwJQtarWP7
He59 Cherbourg notice eagle emblem tail https://www.ebay.de/itm/foto-nr-670-...sAAOSwEm1a9J7B
Wooden Flak tower Grenze-Bourges https://www.ebay.de/itm/S336-Fotos-W...QAAOSwH~ta8YME
Wooden Flak tower Grenze-Avord https://www.ebay.de/itm/S333-Fotos-W...oAAOSweoBa8YL6

Larry deZeng

11th May 2018 00:35

Re: eBay: German intrest

Snautzer: great photos of a mittlerer 3.7 cm Flak emplacement and various 2.0 cm Flak towers!

L.

edwest2

11th May 2018 00:41

Re: eBay: German intrest

https://www.ebay.de/itm/2-x-Foto-Ver...75.c100623.m-1

https://www.ebay.de/itm/Foto-Wehrmac....c100005.m1851

https://www.ebay.de/itm/Foto-Wehrmac...kAAOSwozxa8-7w

https://www.ebay.de/itm/Foto-Wehrmac...EAAOSwoPta8-uG

https://www.ebay.de/itm/Foto-Wehrmac...MAAOSwxuha8-bV

https://www.ebay.de/itm/Foto-Wehrmac...EAAOSwvDpa2Lxz

https://www.ebay.de/itm/Foto-Wehrmac...AAAOSwa9Fa8-Pd

Off topic

https://www.ebay.de/itm/Original-Fot...AAAOSwiUpa6dbr

Snautzer

11th May 2018 11:34

Re: eBay: German intrest

Fi156 unknown emblem (to me) https://www.ebay.de/itm/Foto-Flugzeu...sAAOSw0lVa9VZD
Do217 Nightfighter https://www.ebay.de/itm/TOP-Foto-Dor...IAAOSwcTRa8aDJ
Do217 Nightfighter Bilanz 33 kills https://www.ebay.de/itm/TOP-Foto-Lei....c100005.m1851
Me110 D5+BN nightfighter https://www.ebay.de/itm/TOP-Foto-Mes...MAAOSwtaRa8amU
Me110 D5+HM nightfighter https://www.ebay.de/itm/TOP-Foto-Mes...cAAOSwlsda8acs
Me110 M8+LE nightfighter (?) https://www.ebay.de/itm/TOP-Foto-Mes...0AAOSwCmRa8asq

jednastka

12th May 2018 06:30

Re: eBay: German intrest

Quote:

Originally Posted by jednastka (Post 251724)

Am I seeing things? Looking at the bottom photo, it appears the Caproni main gear can steer! Is that correct?

Vic

Please refer to my post #394. Can anyone confirm that the Caproni main gear could steer?

Vic

Stig Jarlevik

12th May 2018 09:50

Re: eBay: German intrest

Vic

First of all I suggest you start a new topic, thereby hopefully attracting members with at least some technical skill, which I unfortunately lack.

However reading what it says regarding the Swedish version, the Ca 313, which was a very close relative to the Ca 314, I would say no.

The Ca 313 used a pneumatic braking system which automatically functioned on the ground when steering. If you gave "right rudder" the right wheel locked more than the left one and vice versa. The more rudder the more it locked.

I doubt very much that Caproni should have done anything else on the Ca 314.

Cheers
Stig

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