Luftwaffe and Allied Air Forces Discussion Forum

Luftwaffe and Allied Air Forces Discussion Forum (http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/index.php)
-   Luftwaffe and Axis Air Forces (http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/forumdisplay.php?f=8)
-   -   Hans Hahn (http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/showthread.php?t=22086)

Nokose 20th August 2010 20:11

Hans Hahn
 
I was wondering about the verified victories of Hans Hahn with JG2. Has anyone checked any against the actual allied losses? I don't have Jerry Crandall's book on Hahn but did he say post war that he actually shot down the "LaGG-5" since he was a POW and couldn't file for it. Evgeny Velichko (on 27Aug2009) stated in his thread for the late Soviet ace Alexander Mikhailovich Chislov that Hahn only damaged his La-5 in that dogfight on 21Feb43. There were four claims and two losses and I don't know how many more damaged on the Soviet side.

Evgeny Velichko 26th August 2010 11:02

Re: Hans Hahn
 
Mike - ask Nikita Egorov, he has full info on last aircombat of Hahn.

Nokose 30th May 2016 22:13

Re: Hans Hahn
 
Decided to "re-use" this thread on Hahn. Looking at his western victories.
14 May 40 09:55 Hurricane (1) Gembloux (Found Hurricane I P2621 607 Sqn Fl. Lt. JL Sullivan [KIA] La Carrierre, Perwez, N of Namur).

19 May 40 12:18 Hurricane (2) Tournai (Found Hurricane I L1674 253 Sqn Lt. H.T.J. Anderson [KIA] SE of Lille).

19 May 40 ? Morane 406 (3) Tournai (No matching loss)

03 Jun 40 14:50 Hawk 75 (4) ENE of Paris (Possibly Curtiss H-75 (#45) GC-I/5 S/Lt. P. Scotte [KIA] near Dormans).

06 Jun 40 20:35 Hawk 75 (5) Roye (No matching loss)

11 Aug 40 11:45 Spitfire (6) Portland (Numerous RAF fighters in the Portland area at that time, two Hurricane Is of the 87 Sqn RAF over Portland Bill, Spitfire I (R6614) 152 Sqn P/O JSB Jones [KIA] over Portland 11:00 (local) and four Hurricane Is of the 601 Sqn at this time)

25 Aug 40 18:30 Spitfire (7) Dorchester (Found possible Spitfire I R6986 609 Sqn P/O P. Ostaszewski-Ostoja [WIA] over Swanage).

31 Aug 40 09:00 Spitfire (8) Dover (No matching to this time)

31 Aug 40 09:05 Spitfire (9) Dover (No matching to this time)

31 Aug 40 17:05 Spitfire (10) Dover (No matching to this time)

I used two sources for this information "The Battle of France Then and Now" and "Royal Air Force Fighter Command Losses of the second world war Vol. 1". So can anyone comment on any additional information about these claims before I move to the next ones in the west.

Johannes 31st May 2016 08:29

Re: Hans Hahn
 
Hi Guys

If JG 5 was the worst over-claiming unit in the east, then JG 2 was the worst in the west. Some of it's pilots were honest Meimberg and Seeger by memory, but Hahn was certainly not one of these. Took his habits to the east, I believe that Maximilian Stotz was honest until Hahn became his C.O, then huge over-claiming until Hahn's capture, then returns to honesty.

Regards

Johannes

Nokose 31st May 2016 20:30

Re: Hans Hahn
 
Thanks Johannes. On the 31 Aug 1940 there were RAF losses within the hours in the morning when Hahn claimed but not at the time of his claims according to Franks book. Also I haven't yet checked all of the claims made by other pilots in that area and time. I'll check Tony Woods a little later but sometimes Prien's JFV has a few more then Tony's.

Chris Goss 31st May 2016 20:45

Re: Hans Hahn
 
I would urge caution just using Fighter Command Losses for times-best bet would be to use the F540s of the Sqns involved. Trouble is 31 Aug-end of Sept 40 is a busy time and some units records were understandably inaccurate

Nokose 31st May 2016 22:24

Re: Hans Hahn
 
Thanks Chris for the information but limited resources prevents me from going much further. I'm trying to get a better "picture" of his actual score before going to Russia in the west. I looked at Tony's list and actually found a possible for Erich Rudorffer on the 31 Aug 1940 (which I wasn't looking for at this stage). It appears from all the German pilots claims there were more then a few "extra" claims made during the day on the 31 Aug 1940. So it looks like Hahn's claims might not have been shot down for that day. Hahn was a fighter who jumped into odds that some people would have second thoughts about but his claims at least so far in Russia have not been that reliable in the real world. So I would like to get a feel of how he was before going there.

Nick Hector 1st June 2016 04:28

Re: Hans Hahn
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Johannes (Post 219056)
Hi Guys

If JG 5 was the worst over-claiming unit in the east, then JG 2 was the worst in the west. Some of it's pilots were honest Meimberg and Seeger by memory, but Hahn was certainly not one of these. Took his habits to the east, I believe that Maximilian Stotz was honest until Hahn became his C.O, then huge over-claiming until Hahn's capture, then returns to honesty.

Regards

Johannes

Johannes, try a crazy new idea.

In the light of recent threads and posts where forum members and even a forum moderator were accused of discrediting some of the world's most "brilliant" authors (who, incidentally, were never named... LOL)
Back up
what you're saying, because your post represents discrediting a guy who was actually there. You do it like this (and Nokose, I hope this gives you more of a real answer) :

14 May 40 09:55 Hurricane (1) Gembloux (Found Hurricane I P2621 607 Sqn Fl. Lt. JL Sullivan [KIA] La Carrierre, Perwez, N of Namur). Unconfirmed victory 5 minutes later, all 3 of 607's losses accounted for by claims from Schnell (MB152) and Harbauer

19 May 40 12:18 Hurricane (2) Tournai (L1674 of B Flight, 253 sqn. F/L Harry John Thomas Anderson KIA). Unconfirmed MS406 on the same date.

03 Jun 40 14:50 Hawk 75 (4) ENE of Paris (Possibly Curtiss H-75 (#45) GC-I/5 S/Lt. P. Scotte [KIA] near Dormans). Just as likely claimed by Meimberg.

06 Jun 40 20:35 Hawk 75 (5) Roye (No matching loss) One source says a Curtiss Hawk. Private victory board says Spit over Portland (maybe a confused reference to his next victory claim)

11 Aug 40 11:45 Spitfire (6) Portland (Numerous RAF fighters in the Portland area at that time, two Hurricane Is of the 87 Sqn RAF over Portland Bill, Spitfire I (R6614) 152 Sqn P/O JSB Jones [KIA] over Portland 11:00 (local) and four Hurricane Is of the 601 Sqn at this time) Or possibly 64 sqn: P9450 of Sgt. J Whelan damaged, unable to lower undercarriage on return to base (pilot unhurt) and N3293 (R6991?) of P/O C J D Andreae damaged as well, pilot also unhurt

25 Aug 40 18:30 Spitfire (7) Dorchester (Found possible Spitfire I R6986 609 Sqn P/O P. Ostaszewski-Ostoja [WIA] over Swanage). Possibly N3226 of 602 "City of Glasgow" sqn. Sgt. M H Sprague baled out safely with P9381 of 602 "City of Glasgow" sqn. F/O W H Coverley baled out safely claimed by Bolz

31 Aug 40 09:00 Spitfire (8) Dover (No matching to this time)

31 Aug 40 09:05 Spitfire (9) Dover (No matching to this time)

31 Aug 40 17:05 Spitfire (10) Dover (No matching to this time)
4 Sep 40 10:15 Spitfire, Ashford. Likely 111 sqn. They lost R4172 of F/L David Campbell Bruce and Z2309 of P/O J Macinski baled out but both KIA off Folkestone 0915 BT plus Z2308 damaged in the same engagement, F/O B H Bowring unhurt but slight possibility that it was P9316 of 66 sqn. P/O A N R L Appleford baled out WIA over the Estuary at 0950 British Time

4 Sep 40 14:25 Spitfire, Margate. Most likely 66 sqn. Was this X4052 of F/L G P Christie WIA? Forcelanded outside Canterbury around this time or (less likely) R6689 of P/O C A Cooke baled out WIA over Ashford at 1340 British Time

6 Sep 40 10:00 and 10:05, 2 Spitfires, Ashford and Gillingham. Likely 601 sqn (they shot down Himmelheber around this time) 4 losses: F/L William Henry "Willy" Rhodes-Moorehouse, KIA in P8818. F/O Carl Raymond Davis (American) in P3363/W KIA. P/O H T Gilbert baled out WIA from V6647 as did F/O Juliusz Topolnicki from P3382

7 Sep 40 18:25 Spitfire, Gillingham. Haven't traced this one yet, sorry.

8 Sep 40 Hurricane, untimed, London. Either L2061 of 605 "West Riding" sqn NZ pilot Jack Fleming WIA over Tunbridge Wells at 1230 BT (joined Guinea Pig Club) or 46 sqn, 3 losses: Sub Lt. John C "Jack" Carpenter, baled out from P3201 but KIA, F/O N W Burnett, forcelanded WIA in V6631 and P3053 of P/O P R McGregor crashlanded safely
11 Sep40 16:15 Hurricane, Tablehurst. Haven't traced this one yet, sorry.

15 Sep40 15:35 Spitfire, Thorney Island. Haven't traced this one yet, sorry.

20Sep40 12:15 Spitfire, London/Home Counties. Either N3203 of 'B' flight, 222 "Natal" sqn . P/O Herbert Laurence Whitbread, KIA (attributed to several other pilots, in particular Adolf Galland) or Hurricane V6722 of 605 sqn. P/O W J Glowacki, damaged but returned unhurt. Judging by time, possibly K9993 of William Assheton, also of 222 sqn (whom some also attribute to Galland)

23Sep40 10:30 Spitfire, Rochester/London. 92 sqn. Overclaiming, only one loss: P9371 of P/O A J S Pattinson WIA attempting to crashland (additional claims by Sprick and Hornatschek of III/JG 26)

15Oct40 13:35 Spitfire, Isle of Wight. 609 sqn. Either P9503 of F/O John C Dundas damaged, unhurt or X4539 of P/O Noel Le Chevalier Agazarian. Both damaged over Southampton, pilots unhurt. 3, possibly 4 other claims for these 2 losses.

6.11.40 15:55 Hurricane, E of Southampton. Haven't traced this one yet, sorry.

24.6.41 21:00 Spitfire V, Calais (or Gravelines-Ramsgate?). 603 "City of Edinburgh" or 611 sqn. 603 lost W3121 of F/O Kenneth John McKelvie KIA and W3364 of Sgt. Lamb WIA. 611 lost R7349 of F/L F A Buys KIA. 74 sqn also had one Spit Cat.2 (Massive overclaiming, 13 claims between JG 2 and JG 26).

25.6.41 16:31 Spitfire, into sea, NE of Boulogne or Marquise. 303, 616 or 610 sqn. 616 lost P8272 of Sgt John Alfred Hatton Jenks and P7327 of Sgt. Ronald Leslie Brewer (NZ) both KIA plus one other damaged; 303 lost P8672 of P/O S Paderewski WIA and 610 lost P8399/DW-O of P/O J R Scott POW. (Again, fairly hefty overclaiming: 11 claims in total for these losses)

26.6.41 11:55 Spitfire V, Dunkirk. 92, 145 and 603 "City of Edinburgh" sqns. 92 lost P8532 of Sgt. G W Aston POW, 145 sqn lost P8314 of P/O A McBeth POW, 603 sqn lost R272 of P/O C A Newman KIA. 6 claims for these losses...

2.7.41 Spitfire, Hazebrouck. Another claim for Hurricane II Z3094 of 71 sqn? P/O W I Hall WIA-POW (generally credit to Rolf Pingel. He is mentioned in Paul Brickhill's "Reach for the Sky" biography of Douglas Bader)

7.7.41 15:36 Hurricane, 7km W of Le Touquet @ 3000m. Misidentification? Afternoon's losses include X4667 of 145 sqn, Sgt G F Silvester WIA and Sgt. W G Lockhart of 74 sqn, evaded capture. 616 sqn lost one Spitfire in circumstances I haven't looked into yet....

8.7.41 15:52 Spitfire, Calais-Marck. I have yet to fully determine the circumstances of the day's British losses, but I know as much as this: they include R7218 of 145 sqn. F/O Jiri J Machacek KIA same unit lost R7263 of Sgt. P R Pine RCAF (American) POW whilst 611 sqn lost R7277 of Sgt. B W Feely KIA. Shortly after Hahn's claim, Schnell and Brunkhorst most likely claimed against 303 "Kosciuszko" sqn. 3 losses near Dunkirk in the afternoon: P8502/C of S/L T A Arentowicz KIA, P8669/M F/O Wiktor Strembosz KIA and P8247 of Sgt Giermer WIA. Possibly also P7845 of 308 sqn, Sgt. J Biel POW. Earlier in the day Schnell had claimed against either W3239/PR-N of 609 sqn, Sgt J A Hughes-Rees ditched near Goodwin sands after combat with Bf109 at 0630, or P8470/OU- of 485 sqn, Sgt. W N Hendry KIA off Gravelines 0535-0720 British Time.

10.7.41 2 Spitfires at 12:08 and 12:12, St. Omer. 72, 92, 610 and 611 sqns. 72 sqn lost P8600 "Lady Linlithgow" of Sgt. Allan James Casey, W3411 of F/O J M Godlewski and P8604 "Jamshedpur Golmari II" of Sgt. Charles Leslie Harrison all KIA and one other cat.2 damaged. 92 sqn lost W3403 "the dog's fighter" of Sgt G C Waldern RCAF rescued safely by ASR, 611 sqn lost P8539 of F/S L Hemingway KIA plus three others cat.2 damaged. 610 sqn lost P8523/DW-R "Bansi" of P/O P Ward-Smith POW, P8374/DW-K of Sgt. H C D Blackman KIA and P8520/DW-Q "the Mendip Spitfire" of Sgt. H C D Blackman POW. Versus 12 JG 2 and JG 26 claims. 1.Erg/JG 2 seems to have claimed against 234 sqn Spitfires P8137 "Sarum and South Wilts Spitfire" of Sgt. I E Pearce KIA, P8659 of Sgt. H A Newman WIA and P8015 W/C M V Blake DFC ditched and rescued after 5 hours

21.7.41 08:50 Spitfire over Gravelines. Haven't traced this one yet, sorry.

21.7.41 20:45 Spitfire over Watten. 19 sqn. Three losses: P7547 of F/O Harold Oxlin (down near Montreuil), P7890 of P/O Michael Duncan Tucker (down near St. Omer) (both KIA) and P8579 of Sgt. Brooker WIA. At least one other claim, by Guenther Seeger.

22.7.41 13:45 and 13:53. 2 Spitfires over Calais. These opponents may as well count as untraced. Day's only other known attributable loss was R7303 of 54 sqn, P/O L J D Jones KIA. W3369 of 603 "City of Edinburgh" sqn, P/O P J Delorme also lost (believed oxygen failure). Priller claimed against 308 "Torun" sqn. 2 losses: P8313 of F/O W Bozek and P8590 of P/O M M Orzechowski. Both pilots KIA

23.7.41 20:20 and 20:23, 2 Spitfires over Marzingarbe or W of Hesdin. 72, 603, 610 and 611 sqns. Sorry, but I have yet to document the full extent of the losses into my own database....

5.8.41 18:44, Spitfire St. Omer - Calais. Possibly overclaiming, haven't yet found a matching loss

7.8.41 18:17, Spitfire Calais. Losses to JG 2 very likely include W3635 of F/L Gilbert G F Draper of 41 sqn, baled out POW to unknown causes; R7161 of 92 sqn, Sgt. G P Hickman WIA in crashlanding at Deal plus 308 sqn's P8573 of P/O L Stampel KIA and P8094 of Sgt. S Bruzda KIA also. The day's claims are very confusing and hard to sort out....

12.8.41 12:45 and 12:50 2 Spitfires Gravelines and Ramsgate/Cap-Gris-Nez. Were these the losses suffered by 602 sqn around midday? AB844 of Sgt. H J Bell-Walker POW plus one other cat.2 damaged

12.8.41 18:51 Spitfire Cap-Gris-Nez/Gravelines. Clear overclaiming - only 6 Spitfires lost

20.9.41 16:30, 16:42 and 16:43 3 x Spitfires. 10km E of the Somme Estuary @ 6000m/Channel Front. The losses most attributable to JG 2 were: 602 sqn lost W3622 of Sgt. C J Squibb KIA and P8787 of Sgt. W L Brown KIA; W3816 (plus one other damaged?) of 611 sqn; W3179 of 92 sqn. 14 claims for these losses. I believe Rudorffer and Wehrhagen claimed against AB841 of 452 sqn RAAF. Sgt Ian A L Milne (from Laura South Australia, he was my district's "local" Spitfire pilot) shot down into sea, rescued and made POW (was part of Circus 100B). JG 26's victims are said to include 111 sqn's AB962 of F/L L S Pilkington DFM KIA and W3773 "Leyland UDC" of Sgt D G Harwood POW and 602 "City of Glasgow" sqn's W3622 of Sgt C J Squibb KIA near Abbeville

27.9.41 15:35 Spitfire. A definite JG 2 victory was W3655 "Silver Grey" of 616 "South Yorkshire" sqn. Sgt J G West DFM RNZAF damaged by Fw190 and baled out near Bexhill. JG 26 claimed against 129 sqn lost W3829/"Holt II" of Sgt. Ian Allister Spence-Ross POW; 616 sqn lost P/O R G Sutherland RCAF KIA; 308 sqn lost W3940 of Sgt. E Watolski POW; 402 sqn; 603 sqn lost W3233 of Sgt. J W Archibald KIA and R7221 of F/S W J Allard POW; 611 sqn lost W3442 of F/S G T Evans POW; 403 sqn lost AB963/KH-E of Sgt. H D MacDonald WIA and KH-C of S/L R A Lee-Knight DFC KIA; 72 sqn lost P8560 of Sgt. John Graham Merrett RAAF and AB843 of Sgt. A F Binns both KIA; 609 sqn lost W3625 of P/O Victor M M Ortmans rescued safely; 411 sqn suffered one aircraft cat.3 written off, pilot safe

2.10.41 15:05 Spitfire over the Pas de Calais. 92 sqn. Includes W3459 of F/L J W Lund, W3137 of Sgt N H Edge and W3762 of Sgt K G Port all KIA, P/O D A Bruce injured in W3657 (crashlanded near Ashford). 5 other JG 2 claims that might pertain to these losses.

2.10.41 18:50 and 18:52. 2 more Spitfires over Pas de Calais. Said to be claimed against the Biggin Hill Wing. All losses this day incurred by 92 sqn and include W3459 of F/L J W Lund, W3137 of Sgt N H Edge and W3762 of Sgt K G Port all KIA, P/O D A Bruce injured in W3657

13.10.41 14:30 Spitfire, Bolougne-Channel. Definitely lost near Boulogne were 41 sqn, AB826 of F/O L L Bache plus R7258 of Sgt. J L Whiteford and AB821 of 65 sqn, Sgt. D H Warden (all KIA and buried there). Beyond that, this one is kind of hard to trace. There were many claims and losses and this is the best job of narrowing it all down that I have managed to date, apologies for the vagueness...

12.2.42 14:55 Spitfire, Channel Front. Haven't yet found a matching loss, but considering it was the confusing "Channel Dash" combats, he deserves the benefit of the doubt I'd say...

17.2.42 15:08 Spitfire, near Calais. Probably BL590 of 403 sqn RCAF. F/S Messum baled out and rescued by allied launch (although timing seems a little late)
20.4.42 17:07 Spitfire, Channel Front. Was this a PR machine? Apparently no Fighter Command sorties this date

22.4.42 14:32 Spitfire, Channel Front. Was this a PR machine? Apparently no Fighter Command sorties this date

25.4.42 16:24 and 16:29 Spitfires, Channel Front. I haven't fully reconciled this date's combats. Sorry about that....

30.4.42 17:27 Spitfire, Channel Front. This may have been BL330/ON-T of 124 "Baroda" sqn. Damaged by a Bf109F on raid to Dunkirk or the 313 sqn Spitfire damaged in the afternoon. I have yet to resolve that, sorry again for the vagueness....

4.5.42 10:41 and 10:46 Spitfires over the Channel Front. Known victims of the morning's combat include 121 sqn's P8794 of P/O R W Freiberg and AD460 of P/O R V Brossmer plus W3947 of 340 (Free French) sqn, Sgt. P Q Bourgeois (acknowledged JG 2 victim) (all KIA) 4 claims at least for these ones...

4.5.42 15:55 Spitfire over the Channel Front. Known victims of the afternoon's combat include 41 sqn's BL404/EB-X of P/O J J Allen damaged, 129 "Mysore" sqn's BM421 of P/O V E Tucker KIA and BM319 of F/S H D McPhee RCAF also KIA. At least 2 other claims for these losses...

6.5.42 12:22 and 12:24 Spitfires over the Channel Front. Likely 72 or 401 sqn RCAF. 72 suffered AB848 of P/O D O Waters RNZAF damaged and 401 lost BM429 of F/S D R Morrison damaged, bellylanded at Shoreham. Total of 5 claims for these losses so clear overclaiming.

6.6.42 17:25, 17:25 and 17:27 Spitfires over Cherbourg-Cap Levy (Ramrod 21 to Theville). Overclaiming (there were about a dozen claims). Only losses were: Mk VB BL984, S/L John Champion Carver DFC and EN975, Sgt. Lloyd Henry Jones RCAF. Both from 118 sqn and both KIA. 175 sqn had Hurricane IIE BE502 of Sgt. Rosser damaged.

16.9.42 13:15 Spitfire over the Channel Front. Possibly AB859 of 122 sqn, Sgt. G Nadan. Reported to have crashed on patrol due to unknown causes

Johannes 1st June 2016 11:22

Re: Hans Hahn
 
Hi Nick

It's a delicate subject "over-claiming". I'm sure that when we examine losses to claims there are pilots who thought their victims went down, but didn't. Hahn I would say was a deliberate over-claimer, typical of a JG 2 pilot, yet JG 26's pilots were the opposite....generally very honest, but all so Schmid strings to mind, but then again he transferred to JG 26 from JG 2!!!

Regarding Hahn's score before his transfer to JG 54 in Russia. This total is Sixty-two, no heavy bombers. Probably at least another five unconfirmed, then forty-three in Russia giving a total of 105 confirmed. His Russian claims are in a pattern typical of a deliberate overclaimer:-

4th December 1942 X 4 (63-66)
30th December 1942 X 5 (71-75)
14th January 1943 X 7 (76-82)
23rd January 1943 X 5 (83-87)
24th January 1943 X 4 (87-91)
25th January 1943 X 3 (92-94)
26th January 1943 X 3 (95-97)
11th February 1943 X 3 (101-103)

Only thing unusual about his claiming is not having a big day for his 100th, just two on 9th February 1943(99-100) very often an over-claimer has a huge day to acquire his 100th.........just a noticeable fact!

Kind Regards

Johannes

Andy Fletcher 1st June 2016 11:42

Re: Hans Hahn
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Nick Hector (Post 219097)
20.4.42 17:07 Spitfire, Channel Front. Was this a PR machine? Apparently no Fighter Command sorties this date

22.4.42 14:32 Spitfire, Channel Front. Was this a PR machine? Apparently no Fighter Command sorties this date

Hi Nick,

No losses of photo recce aircraft on the Channel Front on the above dates although 1 PRU and 140 Sqn were active on both days over France. 1 PRU did lose one aircraft on 22 Apr 42 but it was over the Dutch Frisian Islands.

Best Regards

Andy Fletcher

Nick Hector 1st June 2016 12:13

Re: Hans Hahn
 
Thanks Andy,

Do you know if the Coastal Command Losses vol 2 is anywhere on the horizon? That would put these losses out into the public domain

Nick

Nick Hector 1st June 2016 12:15

Re: Hans Hahn
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Johannes (Post 219101)
Hi Nick

It's a delicate subject "over-claiming".

Hi Johannes,

What makes it delicate is when we use words like "dishonest" and so on. What makes it delicate is failing to back up words like that when we use them...

Nick

christian 1st June 2016 17:18

Re: Hans Hahn
 
Hi

In a diary i found some informations for the 30. Dezember 1942. A verry great number (hunderte!) of russian planes come over the front and attacket the places of the Luftwaffe. The JG 54 have 45 claims, only one loss. Hptm. Philipp has 8 claims, Lt. Stotz 10 claims.

Christian

GMichalski 1st June 2016 17:47

Re: Hans Hahn
 
Hi,

good work,

as colleague of both, Nick and Johannes i understand, your opinions and
info...
but i think there is a gap of info in his Russian losses to have a
true face of this pilot. If someone brings more information we will know
if was more exagerated that in the channel...or not


the bad/good reputation of a pilot sometimes change with new more info or not

regards

Johannes 2nd June 2016 07:51

Re: Hans Hahn
 
Hi

In my opinion claiming was more honest in the West, this is due to the Luftwaffe having more scope to examine crash-sites, and generally larger Luftwaffe formations. I guess the units C.O makes a difference also......Adolf Galland a very honest claimer seemed to have kept a tight reign on his pilots, he was followed by Priller another very honest pilot as leader of JG 26. In my opinion all the units in the med(except JG 2 during it's brief stay in Africa) were an honest bunch i.e JG 27, JG 53.
In Russia the pilots of JG 5 seemed to believe they were abandoned with inferior aircraft, and their air-battles were usually over the sea(as per JG 2 in the West). Usually in the East combat was behind enemy lines, so less scope for investigation, and it seems there were always dishonest and honest claimers within units.....over-claimers sometimes is too light a word for it. We all know of the four JG 27 pilots caught firing-off their ammunition over the African desert, and claiming large numbers of "kills", but reported doing so by a lost comrade who happened upon them.
The Luftwaffe method of reporting claims was very rigorous, you couldn't "over-claim" without help......being an officer helped, classic i'll scratch your back, you scratch mine would be Rudorffer/Tangermann.
Generally JG 51 and JG 77 in my opinion were the most accurate claimers(again perhaps leaders helped i.e Vatti Molders).
Sometimes authors print(which is cast in stone) doesn't help. Walter-Franz Woidich springs to mind, we were always told 110 confirmed claims, and we had the dates, but Woidich himself has the last twenty-eight of these over Russian missing from his abschüße list i.e somebody made it up, and it stuck!, and this guy was a honest claimer, it's difficult now to convince enthusiasts now that his total is 82 not 110 ! same with Walter Schuck his total of 206 is based only on the pilots statement that Hermann Goring told him that twenty-five of his previously unconfirmed claims had(by some miracle it would seem) all been confirmed, therefore his total is 181.

Often a pilot transferred West with a large number of claims, doesn't make any in the West, for it was more difficult do actually do, and the scope for "over-claiming" is less.

So it was easier in the East.......if, and a big if you wanted to do it.

Kind Regards

Johannes

Nick Beale 2nd June 2016 09:19

Re: Hans Hahn
 
In my opinion all the units in the med(except JG 2 during it's brief stay in Africa) were an honest bunch
In Italy (February–April 1944) I./JG 2 made 52 claims. In those actions the Allies lost 20–25 aircraft, so they may have been honest (if you accept that 2:1 overclaiming was about normal for fighter pilots) but even so they weren't very accurate.

Andy Fletcher 2nd June 2016 11:20

Re: Hans Hahn
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Nick Hector (Post 219107)
Thanks Andy,

Do you know if the Coastal Command Losses vol 2 is anywhere on the horizon? That would put these losses out into the public domain

Nick

Hi Nick,

I seem to recall Ross saying in the past that the manuscript was submitted to the publisher years ago but they are sitting on it, and he is contractually obliged to publish through them.

Best Regards

Andy Fletcher

Juha 2nd June 2016 11:50

Re: Hans Hahn
 
Hello Nick Beale thanks for the interesting piece of info on I./JG 2.

On the JG 2 generally (and MTO)
IMHO Mark R. / Mark J. Reardon’s message #4 on 7th April 2011 14:32 for the actual research on the USAAF reported P-38 losses and the LW P-38 claims during the Tunisia Campaign and Rob Romero’s #25 on 20th April 2011, 20:24 for the stats calculated from it give a good indication of the variation of claim accuracy of different units.

see: http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/showthread.php?t=24947

Rob’s main result were
JG 51 19/25: 76.0%
JG 27 -2/-3: 66.7%
JG 53 19/29: 65.5%
JG 77 -7/11: 63.6%
JG 2 -5/22: 22.7%

the sample of JG 27 is very small but IMHO generally LW claims were at that time and area very accurate, those of JG 51 almost exceptionally accurate but again JG 2 was an exception, overclaiming badly.

Alfred.MONZAT 2nd June 2016 12:27

Re: Hans Hahn
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Andy Fletcher (Post 219153)
I seem to recall Ross saying in the past that the manuscript was submitted to the publisher years ago but they are sitting on it, and he is contractually obliged to publish through them.

Disgusting...

Nick Hector 2nd June 2016 15:11

Re: Hans Hahn
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Alfred.MONZAT (Post 219157)
Disgusting...

Totally agree. What about the Bomber Losses in the Middle East and Mediterranean vol 2? Is it the same story?

Nick

GMichalski 2nd June 2016 16:25

Re: Hans Hahn
 
hi,

i speak about some pilots with Johannes
and i think pilots like Rudorffer,Tangermann.....
made many overclaims and probably produce
a negatively effect on the credibility of others
who trying to claim being more honest..

the Rudorffer (11) and also Tangermann (4) claims on 28,10.44
will affect the credibility of H Broch, Thyben (not in this case the first claim on this date was for sure overclaim, the second i dont know) or Hannig

i don´t know if you understand what i trying to say...
for me have more credibility Thyben claiming only one in the morning
despite of it was overclaim that the 9 claims in the morning of Rudorffer

i always trying to check claims and losses pilot by pilot not the general numbers total claims vs total losses....

regards

gaupe75 3rd June 2016 16:45

Re: Hans Hahn
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Johannes (Post 219142)
same with Walter Schuck his total of 206 is based only on the pilots statement that Hermann Goring told him that twenty-five of his previously unconfirmed claims had(by some miracle it would seem) all been confirmed, therefore his total is 181.

I know for sure that at least his last two claims in Norway is not correct, but I guess he was aching for the 200 mark, but I do not think this was a deliberate lie.

Nokose 3rd June 2016 21:34

Re: Hans Hahn
 
Okay, I looked at the claims for the 25 Aug 1940 for the time between 18:15 - 18:50 (Berlin) and for five Hurricanes and four Spitfires there were a lot of German claims on the Portland raid.
Following are just from Tony Woods list:
5/ZG 76 claimed three all Spitfires
JG 53 claimed 13
7/JG 27 three (2 Hurricanes and a Spitfire)
JG 2 claimed nine (four Hurricanes and five Spitfires)
Most of these claims were around the time of Hahn's claim for a Spitfire. So the 25th leaves very bad odds that he shot down his claim or that some of these claims were actually shared.

GMichalski 4th June 2016 13:38

Re: Hans Hahn
 
hi,

to compare more of this day these are the losses and damaged
(many of Nick Hector)...

25/08/1940 1900 Spitfire I R9819? 616 Wareing P.T.Sgt. pow,evader Calais nr. Crashed after combat over Channel, awarded DFM for escape via Sweden

25/08/1940 1920 Spitfire I K9931 610 Gardiner F.T.F/O. ba,wia Northbourne, Kent Baled out after combat with Bf109 over Dover

25/08/1940 ¿time? Hurricane I N2646 213 Sgt E G Snowden safe Burton Bradstock, Dorset Damaged by Bf109s over Portland. Crash landed Burton Bradstock Dorset

25/08/1940 1745 Spitfire I N3226 602 Sprague M.H.Sgt. ba,safe Portland off Patrol,Baled out off Portland after combat with Bf109

25/08/1940 1820 Spitfire I N3268 92 Tuck R.R.S.F/Lt. wia St Gowan's Head, Pembroke Crashed without engine after combat with Do215, wounded in a leg

25/08/1940 1900 Hurricane I P2755 32 Gillman Keith Reginald P/O. + Dover off Shot down

25/08/1940 ¿time? Hurricane I P2766 213 F/L J M Strickland safe Portland nr. Shot down

25/08/1940 1800 Hurricane I P3200 213 Atkinson H.D.P/O. + Portland off Patrol,Shot down off Portland

25/08/1940 0130 Hurricane I P3758 73 Long (Leng?) M.E.Sgt. ba,safe Beverley nr. Night Patrol,Brought down by british AA fire near Beverley

25/08/1940 ¿time? Spitfire I P9381 602 Coverley W.H.F/O. ba,safe Dorchester area Baled out after combat with Bf109 over Dorchester

25/08/1940 1745 Hurricane I R4199 17 Williams Cedric Watcyn S/Ldr. + Portland off Shot down in combat after head-on attack against Bf110, cut in half

25/08/1940 1730 Spitfire I R6986 609 P/ O P Ostaszewski-Ostoja wia Warmwell Crashed due battle damaged by Me109 over Swanage, wounded in arm

25/08/1940 1730/1745 Spitfire I R6810 152 Hogg Richard Malzard P/O. + Portland off Shot down by Luftwaffe fighters

25/08/1940 1900 Spitfire I R6966? 616 Westmoreland Thomas Emrys Sgt. + Maidstone nr. Lost in combat with Bf109 over Canterbury

25/08/1940 1920 Spitfire I R6969 54 Shand M.M.P/O. wia near Manston Damaged during combat with Bf109 over Dover, repaired (only 20hrs experience, asigned with Deere!)

25/08/1940 1730/1745 Spitfire I R6994 152 Wildblood Timothy Seddon P/O. Mid + Portland off Patrol,Shot down off Portland by Bf109

25/08/1940 1900 Hurricane I V6547 32 Rose J.P/O. ba,safe Channel Baled out over the Channel during combat with Bf109

25/08/1940 1730 Hurricane I V7226 213 Philippart J.A.L.P/O. + drowned Portland off Shot down by Bf109 of JG53, JG3?

25/08/1940 1805 Hurricane I V7250 87 Wakeling S.R.E.Sgt. + Portland nr. Shot down by Bf109 and burst into flames and crashed near Dorchester

25/08/1940 1750 Hurricane I V7407 17 Bayne A.W.A.F/Lt. ba,safe Portland off Baled out in combat with Bf110s and Bf109s, Shot down over Bognor

25/08/1940 ¿time? Hurricane W6668 213 Missing ?

regards

Nokose 7th June 2016 22:26

Re: Hans Hahn
 
Looking at the morning of the 04 Sep 1940 in the Folkestone raid time period of 10:10-1020 (09:10-09:20 British) there are only two RAF losses in the Folkestone area. 111 Sqn lost two Hurricanes at 09:15. The 66 Sqn lost two Spitfire at 09:50 and 10:00 beyond the time of Hahn's claim so they're not part of the search.
For two Hurricanes this is what Tony Woods list has:
Oblt. Otto Bertram 1./JG 2 Hurricane 10:10 Folkestone
Oblt. Adolf-Friedrich Götz 1./JG 2 Spitfire 10:10 Folkestone
Fw. Willi Reins 1./JG 2 Spitfire 10:10 Folkestone
Uffz. Hans Hahn 4./JG 2 Spitfire 10:15 Ashford
Oblt. Rudolf Unger 2./JG 54 Spitfire 10:20 ?
Oblt. Hans-Ekkehard Bob 9./JG 54 Hurricane Folkestone
Fw. Fritz Dettmer 9/JG 54 Hurricane 10:10 Folkestone
Oblt Richard Leppa 3./JG 51 Spitfire 10:30 ?

So eight claims for two fighters lost during this time period. Again very bad odds that Hahn actually got one of these and "Folkestone" seems to be blanket coverage of this area.

Nokose 7th June 2016 23:50

Re: Hans Hahn
 
04 Sep 1940 14:05-14:35 German (13:05-13:35 British)
46 Sqn Hurricane 13:15 near Stambridge by Bf 109
46 Sqn Hurricane 13:15 over Rochford by Bf 109
66 Sqn Spitifire 13:40 over Ashford by Bf 109
72 Sqn Spitfire 13:40 over Hartfield (Sussex) with Me-110
72 Sqn Spitfire 13:20 over Kent with Me-110
79 Sqn Hurricane 13:40 ? with Me-110
222 Sqn Spitfire 13:20 ? by British AAA
222 Sqn Spitfire 13:35 N of Maidstone unk cause
601 Sqn Hurricane 14:45 ? damaged by Me-110

Oblt. Otto Bertram 1/JG 2 Hurricane 14:05 London
Fw. Peter Fasshauer 1/JG 2 Spitfire 14:15 Maidstone
Fw Rudolf Täschner 1/JG 2 Spitfire 14:27 New Romney
Lt. Julius Meimberg 4/JG 2 Spitfire 14:05 Ashford
Oblt. Helmut-Felix Bolz 5/JG 2 Spitfire 14;15 ?
Obfw Hans Hahn 4/JG 2 Spitfire 14:25 Margate
Obfw Karl Hannes 4/JG 2 Spitfire ? Ashford
These are the claims by other units during that time
I/JG 77 three Spitfires (possibly two more which didn't have times listed)
8/JG 54 one Spitfire
III/JG 51 one Spitfire and one Hurricane (Possibly two more Spitfires which didn't have times)
ZG 76 twenty Spitfires and two Hurricanes

Hans Hahn listed his Spitfire at Margate and these RAF losses were not in that area to my knowlege. So this one with all the overclaiming appears to have bad odds of post-war confirmation for Hahn.

christian 8th June 2016 00:30

Re: Hans Hahn
 
Hi

8.III./JG 54

Fw. Pausinger shot down the Spitfire in the area of Rochester, pilot killed. Saw from Olt. Lange and Fw. Karstedt.

Christian

GMichalski 9th June 2016 02:41

Re: Hans Hahn
 
Hi,
on 4 of september i have these (many of Nick):

04/09/1940 1335 Spitfire I K9962 222 Ramshaw J W Sergeant + Patrol,Crashed near Yalding, Crashed after combat with Bf109s. Was dead on arrival at West Kent Hospital. shot down at Mockbeggar,Collier Street, near Yalding at 1335 BT

04/09/1940 1000 Spitfire I N3048 66 Smith A D Sergeant wia DoW 6.9.40 Shot down in action against Me 109s over Ashford, Kent,baled out near Purleigh Essex severely wounded and admitted to No.7 Casualty Clearing Station, Benenden; died of wounds 6. 9.40

04/09/1940 Hurricane I P2691 501

04/09/1940 Hurricane P3031 46 Damaged landing at Rochford

04/09/1940 1315 Hurricane I P3052 46 Plummer R F Flying Officer wia DoW 14.9.40 Patrol,Baled out near Stambridge, Shot down in flames by Bf110. Pilot baled out with serious burns

04/09/1940 Hurricane I P3066 46 Ambrose C F Pilot Officer Safe Patrol,Baled out over Rochford

04/09/1940 1340 Hurricane I P3676 79 Wright J Sergeant wia Died next day Patrol,Crashed near Brighton, Shot down by Bf110 over base. Pilot crash landed aircraft at Surbiton

04/09/1940 Spitfire I N3032 66 Flying Officer Peter James Christopher King safe killed the following day Cat 2 on this date when shot down by Bf109's, crashed at Hawkinge 13.30

04/09/1940 Spitfire P9316 92 Shot down

04/09/1940 0950 Spitfire I P9316 66 Appleford A N R L Pilot Officer wia Patrol,Shot down in action against Me 109s over the Thames Estuary off Southend, Essex

04/09/1940 Spitfire I P9378 222 Carpenter J M Pilot Officer Safe Patrol,Shot down by British AA and Crashed at Boughton Kent

04/09/1940 1350 Spitfire I X4182 234 P/O Z Olenski Safe aircraft damaged over Sussex at 1350 BT

04/09/1940 0930 Spitfire I N3044 Flight Lieutenant F. P. R. Dunworth wia Damaged in action against Me 109s over the Thames Estuary off Southend, Essex; forced landed at Great Cowbridge Farm, near Billericay. Pilot slightly wounded

04/09/1940 0915 Hurricane I R4172 111 Bruce D C Flight Lieutenant + 5m E of Folkestone Patrol,Lost off Folkestone

04/09/1940 0915 Hurricane I Z2309 111 P/O J.Macinski + 5m E of Folkestone Shot down by Bf109 and pilot baled out but body was never found

04/09/1940 0915 Hurricane I Z2308 111 F/O B H Bowring safe E of Folkestone damaged

04/09/1940 Hurricane I R4214 601 Jankiewicz J S Flying Officer wia Patrol,Returned damaged

04/09/1940 1340 Spitfire I R6689 66 Cooke C A Pilot Officer wia Shot down in action against Me 109s over the Maidstone area of Kent. Pilot baled out wounded and landed at Hamstreet, near Ashford

04/09/1940 Spitfire I N3032 66 Flying Officer P. J. C. King Safe Maidstone area of Kent Badly damaged in action against Me 109s over the Maidstone area of Kent; returned to base. Pilot unhurt

04/09/1940 Spitfire I X4052 66 F/L G P Christie wia Canterbury Forcelanded outside Canterbury

04/09/1940 Spitfire R6909 152 Sgt. J K Barker mia 25 miles off Bognor He is believed to have been shot down by return fire from a Do17 engaged 25 miles off Bognor

04/09/1940 Spitfire I R6971 72 Males E E Pilot Officer Safe Patrol,Baled out near Hartfield Sussex

04/09/1940 1000 Hurricane I V6638 253 Trueman A A G Flying Officer + Patrol,Dived into ground at Banstead Surrey, Shot down over during combat action over Kenley aerodrome

04/09/1940 1330 Spitfire I X4278 222 Cutts J W Flying Officer + aircraft crashed at Sutton Farm Patrol,Shot down over Maidstone by Bf109

04/09/1940 Spitfire I R6909 152/151 Barker J K Sergeant + 25m S of Bognor Patrol,Shot down off Bognor Regis, Possibly shot down by Do17 over Channel. Body washed up on French coast

04/09/1940 Spitfire I P9460 72 Elliott R D Pilot Officer Safe Patrol,Baled out over Kent

regards

Nokose 9th June 2016 03:39

Re: Hans Hahn
 
Nick, you have the 601 Sqn listed for the 06Sep1940 but the source that I'm looking at states that the 601 Sqn lost four Hurricanes at Mayfield at 09:30 (British time). In the area of Ashford there is listed three Hurricanes of the 501 Sqn as shot down but it doesn't state the cause if by fighter or bomber. I checked the locations for the other RAF losses and they were not in the Ashford area. The II/JG 27 listed six Spitfires with no places and times given. There is also the claims of II and III/JG 53 which have times but no locations.

Three 501 Sqn Hurricane cause? 09:00 Ashford

German Claims from 10:00-10:15 Ashford
Obfw Georg Schott 2(J)/LG 2 Spitfire 10:00 Ashford
Oblt. Hans Hahn 4/JG 2 Hurricane 10:00 Ashford
Hurricane 10:05 Ashford
Lt. Julius Meimberg 4/JG 2 Hurricane 10:00 Ashford
Hurricane 10:15 Ashford

So three losses for five claims and that is not including the possible JG 27 and JG 53 in the numbers because of no location.

Nick Hector 9th June 2016 04:09

Re: Hans Hahn
 
Hi Michael, hi Miguel

To clarify, I have up til now believed Hahn claimed against 601 sqn because they are known to have shot down Himmelheber around that time (and yes, I am assuming that JG 2 was operating at close to Geschwader strength, given that Himmelheber was from Stab/JG 2, and pilots from 1/JG 2 and II/JG 2 claimed victories that morning). Caldwell credits Karl Borris with destruction of one of the three 501 sqn machines. You give good reason to consider that the other 2 losses may well be due to JG 2

Johannes 9th June 2016 09:17

Re: Hans Hahn
 
Hi Guys

At least five claims for three loses, but Meimberg's claims are generally accurate enough not to doubt him, yet as a whole you can always find JG 2's claims not adding-up, whereas JG 26's add-up nicely.

Regards

Johannes

Nokose 9th June 2016 20:47

Re: Hans Hahn
 
Looked at the 07 Sep 40 from 18:00-18:55 (17:00-17:55 British). Don Caldwell lists JG 26 tangled with the 603 Sqn but at least one 603 Sqn Spitfire went down in the area of the Thames Estuary at 17:39 which is the area of JG 2's engagement. I removed RAF losses outside of that area and German claims as much as possible considering the general locations such as "London".

RAF losses:
242 Sqn Hurricane 17:00 Thames Estuary
257 Sqn Hurricane 17:30 Thames Estuary
257 Sqn Hurricane 17:30 Thames Estuary
303 Sqn Hurricane 17:00 Thames Estuary
303 Sqn Hurricane 17:00 Thames Estuary
303 Sqn Hurricane 17:00 Thames Estuary
603 Sqn Spitfire 17:39 Thames Estuary

German claims in that area:
Obfw. Erich Rudorffer 2/JG 2 Spitfire 18:30 Thames Estuary
Spitfire 18:40 ?
Spitfire 18:43 ?
Oblt. Siegfried Bethke 2/JG 2 Hurricane 18:42 eastern edge of London
Obfw. Hans Tilly 3/JG 2 Hurricane 18:50 Thames Estuary
Lt. Karl-Heinz Dudeck Stab II/JG 2 Spitfire 18:20 ?
Oblt. Hans Hahn 4/JG 2 Hurricane 18:25 Gillingham
Oblt. Helmut Wick 6/JG 2 Spitfire 18:25 ?
Obfw. Franz Willinger 8/JG 2 Spitfire 18:25 ?
Fw Kurt Goltzch 8/JG 2 Spitfire 18:26 ?
Fw Karl Ebert 8/JG 2 Spitfire ? hrs London area (Not confirmed)
Obfw Hans Klee 7/JG 2 Spitfire 18:45 Themsemüdung
Lt. Franz Beyer 8/JG 2 Hurricane 18:10 ?
Oblt. Walter Adolph 8/JG 27 Spitfire 18:25 south of Stanford

So in that area for six Hurricanes and one Spitfire there are German claims for nine Spitfires (& 0ne unconfirmed) and six Hurricanes. Far to many claims to confirm Hahn's Hurricane unless you drop the Spitfire claims which is impossible to do since everyone wanted to claim that they beat a Spitfire. So possibly a shared, escaped and always possible shot down for Hahn.

Nokose 9th June 2016 22:14

Re: Hans Hahn
 
Hans Hahn lists only the location for the 08 Sep 1940 on claiming his Hurricane. So I used only the times of 13:00-13:42 (12:00 - 12:42 British).

German Claims:
Oblt. Hans Hahn 4/JG 2 Hurricane ?hrs London
Obfw. Siegfried Schnell 4/JG 2 Hurricnae 13:15 ?
Oblt. Helmut Wick 6/JG 2 Hurricane 13:20 ?
Hurricnae 13:30 ?
Hurricnae 13:40 ?
Fw. Erwin Kortlepel 4/JG 3 Hurricnae 13:30 S. of London
Lt. Heinz Bär 1/JG 51 Spitfire 13:20 ?
Oblt. Richard Leppla 3/JG 51 Spitfire 13:20 ?
Oblt. Ignaz Prestrle 2/JG 53 Hurricane 13:25 ?
Oblt Franz Götz 7/JG 53 Hurricane 13:25

RAF losses
41 Sqn Spitfire 12:15 off Dover
46 Sqn Hurricane 12:35 Maidstone
46 Sqn Hurricnae 12:30 off Isle of Sheppey
46 sqn Hurricane 12:30 off Isle of Sheppey
605 Sqn Hurricane 12:30 near Tunbridge

So for four Hurricanes and one Spitfire lost there were eight Hurricanes and two Spitfires claimed by German pilots for this period. So again very bad odds that he actually shot down his Hurricane.

Johannes 10th June 2016 08:18

Re: Hans Hahn
 
Hi Guys

As bad as Hahn was Wick, but JG 51 and especially JG 53 were honest units. So who was the best during the battle of Britain, we have the big three Wick, Galland, Molders..........well you can dis-credit Wick for a start. Though my heart says Molders, and he was the better leader, Galland was absolutely honest, and the best I think, and deservedly so for his honesty alone. Slightly later I would say Müncheberg was best.

Kind Regards

Johannes

P.S though he had many of his claims unconfirmed I would put Joppien above Wick and Hahn!

Nick Hector 10th June 2016 10:27

Re: Hans Hahn
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Johannes (Post 219513)
Galland was absolutely honest, and the best I think, and deservedly so for his honesty alone.

I am personally very cautious of calling anyone "absolutely honest" because absolutely sounds like you would credit them to the point where one would rule out the validity of other pilots' claims.... Here's what I mean when it comes to Galland:

14.6.40/1728 Blenheim 10km S of Evreux. R3693 of 40 sqn. P/O Lewis and Sgt. Currie both believed POW, Sgt. S W Johnson KIA (believed damaged by Galland and finished off by Blume, so one or the other overclaimed)

25.7.40/1617 Spitfire Dover Harbour. R6707 of 'B' Flight, 54 sqn. F/L Basil Hugh "Wonky" Way, KIA. (Some sources credit Galland with shooting down Sub-Lt (A) Francis Dawson-Paul). Fw. Karl Schmid of 1/JG 51 claimed around the same time and place. We can't just assume Galland got this one and arbitrarily rule out Schmid.

15.8.40/1255 Spitfire 10km E of Dover-Folkestone. Galland is credited by some sources with shooting down Al Deere. Bergstroem says this was N3097 of 54 sqn, Sgt. Norman A Lawrence (who is also credited to Ebbighausen, so again, who was right and who was wrong with this claim?)

15.9.40/1530 Hurricane. Galland and Horten claim their well known victories over the Czech pilots Hubacek and Hess... ....but can you really rule out claims by pilots such as Helmut Bennemann?

20.9.40/1205 Same again: did Hahn or Galland shoot down N3203 of 'B' flight, 222 "Natal" sqn. P/O Herbert Laurence Whitbread, KIA or Hurricane V6722 of 605 sqn. P/O W J Glowacki, damaged but returned unhurt or even K9993 of P/O William R Assheton. I don't think any one of us can quite determine that....

30.10.40/1730 & 1740, 2 x Spitfires of 41 sqn. P7282 of P/O G G F Draper WIA, aircraft written off plus P7375 of Sgt. Leonard Arthur Garvey KIA. Johannes, please tell me you have considered the possibility that Lt. Otto Grote and Gefr. Leopold Masterer might also have downed these two British pilots. And again, where does it say that we have the absolute right to decide either way...?

17.11.40/1020 Again, another famous one: Galland is credited with the Hurricane N2342 of 257 "Burma" sqn. Sgt. Bernard Henson, KIA but again, who can say that Sprick's Spitfire claim isn't doubling up on this? (I acknowledge that 66 sqn had one damaged around this time so the best we can do is the benefit of the doubt and that is by no means "absolute honesty")

28.11.40/1540 Galland downed V6729, tail end charlie of 249 sqn. P/O P H V Wells, baled out burned

21.10.41/1816-1817 Galland and Fast claimed Spitfires. 611 "West Lancashire" sqn. Two losses: W3515 of P/O N J Smith and W3327 "Horsham and District" of P/O J F Reeves both KIA. Was said to have been a collision between the two, but Galland and Fast claimed them anyway. I guess they can actually count as legitimate victories, but some purists might view it differently...

Nokose 10th June 2016 20:42

Re: Hans Hahn
 
11 Sep 1940
Oblt. Hans Hahn 4/JG 2 Hurricane 16:15 Staplehurst

Looked at the RAF losses for 15:00-15:30 (British) in the area of his claim and found none. All the losses during that time were in the 46 Sqn with a Hurricane 15:30 near Bodiam, Hurricane 15:30 Thames Estuary, Hurricane 15:40 near Staple Cross, Kent. So nothing post-war reality to confirm his claim.

Nokose 10th June 2016 22:03

Re: Hans Hahn
 
15 Sep 1940 II/JG 2 seems to have been involved in a dogfight with Spitfires possibly in the area of Portsmouth as Hahn's claim gives the only clue with Thorney Island. here is the claims for them.
Fw. Eberhard Bauer 5/JG 2 Spitfire 15:15 no location
Uffz. Karl Hannes 5/JG 2 Spitfire 15:20 no location
Oblt. Hans Hahn 4/JG 2 Spitfire 15:35 Thorney Island

No RAF losses along the southern coast this day and there are plenty of other German units filing claims some with no times and no locations during this time period but all the actual losses seem to be around London and the Thames Estuary. So no actual matching claim for Hahn.

Nokose 10th June 2016 23:00

Re: Hans Hahn
 
20 sep 1940 12:00-12:40 (11:00-11:40 British)
On checking the RAF losses it was possible to separate the two Spitfires of the 92 Sqn because they were lost in the Dungeness area which had Werner Mödlers claiming two and III/JG 53 claiming two Spitfires during that time. So that left the following other RAF losses during the time of Hahn.
222 Sqn Spitfire 11:15 Rochester
222 Sqn Spitfire 11:35 Thames Estuary
222 Sqn Spitfire unk time and location crash-landed damaged by Bf 109
253 Sqn Hurricane 11:30 Kent

German Claims:
Oblt. Johann Schmid 1/JG 2 Spitfire 12:10 south of London
Hptm. Karl-Heinz Greisert Stab II/JG 2 Spitfire 12:10 south of London
Oblt. Hans Hahn 4/JG 2 Spitfire 12:15 no location
Fw. Alfred Heckmann 5/JG 3 Spitfire 12:20 south of London
Maj. Adolf Galland Stab/JG 26 Spitfire 12:05 south of Hornchurch
Hptm. Johannes Seifer 3/JG 26 Hurricane 12:25 Themsemündung
Hurricane 12:37 Maidstone
Obfw. Heinrich Gottlob 6/JG 26 Hurricane 12:15 London
Gefr. Viktor Gruber 8/JG 27 Hurricane 12:20 souteast of London.

Looking at the location of the 222 Sqn Hurricane at 11:25 at the Thames Estuary it would appear to be Hptm Seifer even though he lists a Hurricane. That would leave the other three among the rest of the claims. Very bad odds that Hahn's claim could be an actual reality but possibly be an overclaim, shared or escaped.

Andrew Arthy 11th June 2016 02:32

Re: Hans Hahn
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Nokose (Post 219554)
15 Sep 1940 II/JG 2 seems to have been involved in a dogfight with Spitfires possibly in the area of Portsmouth as Hahn's claim gives the only clue with Thorney Island. here is the claims for them.
Fw. Eberhard Bauer 5/JG 2 Spitfire 15:15 no location
Uffz. Karl Hannes 5/JG 2 Spitfire 15:20 no location
Oblt. Hans Hahn 4/JG 2 Spitfire 15:35 Thorney Island

No RAF losses along the southern coast this day and there are plenty of other German units filing claims some with no times and no locations during this time period but all the actual losses seem to be around London and the Thames Estuary. So no actual matching claim for Hahn.

Hi,

II./J.G. 2 was flying from Mardyck escorting bombers to east London between 14:35 and 16:15, and was not in the Portsmouth area (source: Hannes Flugbuch).

Cheers,
Andrew A.
Air War Publications - www.airwarpublications.com/earticles

Nokose 11th June 2016 04:21

Re: Hans Hahn
 
Thank you Andrew. I checked again and found that Thorn Island on the Thames River is also called Thorney Island which I believe is near the Royal Palace. Still that doesn't provide help with any better odds in his claim as for the RAF only the following appear.
1 Sqn Hurricane 14:45 damaged in air battle with He 111
92 Sqn Spitfire 14:50 west of Ashford
249 Sqn Hurricane 14:35 West Malling in air battle with He 111
302 Sqn Hurricane 14:45 North Weald doesn't give if fighter or bomber in shoot down
303 Sqn Hurricane ? hrs over Dartford with Bf 109
310 Sqn Hurricane 14:45 over the Thames
310 Sqn Hurricane 14:45 over the Thames
504 Sqn Hurricane 14:45 near Dartford

So here is the German claims outside of the above listed II/JG 2 claims.
Oblt Jerbert Ihlefeld 2(J)/LG 2 Spitfire 15:30 London
(I(J)/LG 2 made three more claims for Spitfires during the day with no names, times & locations)
(Also Stab and I/JG 3 made three Hurricane and two Spitire claims London with no times)
Oblt. Heinrich Sannrmann Stab II/JG 3 Sptfire 15:40 London
Maj. Adolf Galland Stab/JG 26 Hurricane 15:30 Themsemündung
Oblt. Walter Horten Stab/JG 26 Hurricane 15:30 "
Oblt Fritz Losigkeit 2/JG 26 Spitfire 15:40 southeast London
Obfw Walter Meyer 5/JG 26 Spitfire 15:35 London
(6/JG 27 had one unconfirmed Spitfire SE of London with no time, Stab/JG 51 had a Spitfire with no time and location and I/JG 51 had three Sitfires with no times and location)
Lt. Fritz Stendel 8/JG 51 Hurricane 15:28 no location
Spitfire 15:36 "
Fw Gustav Küll 8/JG 51 Hurricane 15:35 no location
Uffz Karl Willius 8/JG 51 Spitfire 15:36 no location
(III/JG 51 had two Spitfires with no times and location. Also a Hurricane with the location of Tonbridge)
Oblt Franz Hahn 2/JG 77 Spitfire 15:35 no location
Oblt Hans-Karl Keitel 1/JG 77 Spitfire 15:40 "
Oblt Karl-Heinz Leesmann 2/JG 52 Hurricane 15:25 Themsemündung
Hurricane 15:40 "
Oblt Helmut Bennemann 2/JG 52 Hurricane 15:30 southern London
Hurricane 15:30 Themsemündung
Hurricane 15:40 "
Oblt. Günther Büsgen 1/JG 52 Hurricane 15:32 no location
Oskar Strack 1/JG 52 Hurricane 15:35 no location
Oblt Robert Göbel 2/JG 52 Hurricane 15:35 Themsemündung
Uffz Heinrich Kooerschläger 1/JG 53 Spitfire 15:50 NW London
Fw Walter Scholz 3/JG 53 Spitfire 15:50 10 km south of London
Oblt Ignaz Prestele 2/JG 53 Spitfire 15:55 10 km " "
Lt Wolfgang Tonne 3/JG 53 Spitfire 15:55 "
Uffz Heinrich Rühl 1/JG 53 Spitfire 15:58 south London
Oblt Jakob Stoll 9/JG 63 Spitfire 15:33 no location
Lt Erich Schmidt 9/JG 53 Spitfire 15:36 " "
Oblt Franz Götz 9/JG 53 Hurricane 15:40 " "
Gefr Hans Swietlik 13(Z)/LG 1 Spitfire 15:10 " "
Obfw Heinz Langenberg 5/ZG 76 Spitfire 15:25
Lt. Werner Pistor Stab II/ZG 76 Spitfire 15:45 10 km SE London

Okay with the all these claims and only six Hurricanes and one Spitfire lost (also the damaged Hurricane) the Spitfire of Hahn's is very unlikely. So the 15 Sep 1940 was not a good day.


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 17:16.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.2
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©2004 - 2018, 12oclockhigh.net