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-   -   Hartmann: claims vs. victories (http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/showthread.php?t=55840)

HGabor 27th December 2019 14:38

Hartmann: claims vs. victories
 
Hello everyone,

There is a long debate about the claims and real victories of Eric Hartmann, the German ‘ace of aces’ in WWII. He was officially credited 352 victories by VE-Day. But in recent years more and more studies are available on soviet losses on the Eastern Front, contradicting his world record victory-list in a scale, beyond all imagination. This is NOT a judgement of his flying skills, or his credibility regarding his dogfights. I think he really hit their opponents, but as you will see, only a small fraction of them was a real loss. Here is the analysis of Hartmann’s 28 claims in the fall of 1944. In the upcoming list I listed ALL permanent soviet AC losses by date and make, according to Hartmann’s claims. (Since eg. the Yak models looked very similar in the air, so I listed all of the Yaks, not just the specific model, that he reported.) Out of his 28 claims only 7 were potential victories, the rest, 21, were overclaims. So only 25% victories vs. his claims at best! But let’s be nice: 30%, not more.

If this was Hartmann’s average result throughout his flying career, he had about 88 real victories only, out of his 352 claims. This is not far from Russian researcher, Dimitri Khazanov’s study: ‘Erich Hartmann JG 52 - 352 victories ..or 80 ?’

http://falkeeins.blogspot.com/2010/0...ies-or-80.html

If we consider the real victories only, this can remove him even from the ‘Club of 100’. But see it for yourself. During this time Hartmann fought against the 5th soviet Air Army, which was covering the ground forces of the 2nd Ukrainian front in their battle for Budapest.



305: -OVERCLAIM 27.10.1944 10:16 Yak-9 4./JG 52 18 265: at 2.500m

3 Yak losses this day:

5 VA, 331 IAD, 513 IAP Yak-1B (S/N: 20150) destroyed on the ground at Debrecen airfield in air raid.

5 VA, 331 IAD, 513 IAP Yak-9T (S/N: 2515338) destroyed on the ground at Debrecen airfield in air raid.

5 VA, 13 GvIAD, 150 IAP Yak-3 (S/N: 3929212) downed by Fritz Schröter (Stab.I/SG.10 - Fw 190F) at 13:42 local, 6 Yak-3 vs. 4 Bf 109 and 16 Fw 190 at 2000 m in the Nyíregyháza area. Gv.Ml.Lt. Nikolai Matveevich Knut bailed out, POW.

306: -OVERCLAIM 31.10.1944 15:30 Yak-7 4./JG 52 98 799

NO YAK loss!

307?: -OVERCLAIM 1.11.1944 14:35 LaGG-5 4./JG 52 98 836: at 2.500m

1 Lavochkin loss this day:

5 VA, 14 GvIAD, 177 GvIAP La-5F (S/N: 39215336) downed by Pottyondy László szds. (Hungarian 102/2. Bf 109 Sq.) at Szolnok. Gv.Ml.Lt. Evgenii Ivanovich Batyunya was wounded.

307?: -OVERCLAIM 7.11.1944 13:35 Yak-7 4./JG 52 98 563: at 1.000m

1 Yak loss this day:

5 VA, 13 GvIAD, 150 IAP Yak-3 (S/N: 3229214) at 12:19 local at 1200 m, 6 Yak vs. 4 Fw 190 in the Lajosmizse area. Gv.Lt. Evgenii Andreevich Pyankov bailed out, badly burned.


308: – POTENTIAL VICTORY? 13.11.1944 14:10 Yak-9 4./JG 52 89 ---: at 5.000m
309: – POTENTIAL VICTORY? 13.11.1944 14:15 Yak-9 4./JG 52 9866-: at 4.200m
310: -OVERCLAIM 13.11.1944 14:25 Yak-9 4./JG 52 0854-: at 4.000m
311: -OVERCLAIM 13.11.1944 14:30 Yak-9 4./JG 52 98 637: at 4.000m



7 Yak losses this day:

5 VA, 331 IAD, 122 IAP, Yak-9M (S/N: 2715382), Gv.Lt. Nikolai Mikhailovich Grisaev (unhurt) - take-off accident at Külső-Kiritó airfield.

5 VA, 13 GvIAD, 149 GvIAP, Yak-1B (S/N:11186), lost at Jászberény, Gv.Ml.Lt Alexandr Titovich Kotlyar POW. Between 13:55-14:50 4+4 Yaks, led by Kalchenko and Kadagidze attacked 4 Fw 190 and 2 Bf 109 at 3000 m, which were attacking the road at Jászberény-S. Kalchenko downed a Bf 109, Kotlyar bailed out and got captured. Heavy fragmentation in both of his hands. After being liberated by the Allies, remained in hospital until June 18, 1945. Returned to the USSR on June 20 1945.

5 VA, 13 GvIAD, 149 GvIAP, Yak-1B (S/N: 42178), lost at Abony-N, 20 km, GvMl.Lt Stephanov unhurt. At 12:55 local, 8 Yaks at 3000 m were attacked by 6 Bf 109 from the sun. Hidraulics damaged, crashlanded on one wheel. AC lost, pilot returned the same day to his unit.

5 VA, 13 GvIAD, 150 GvIAP, Yak-3 (S/N: 3529218), lost at Ócsa, Gv.1Lt. Nikolai Alexeevich Kireev wounded. At 08:41 local, 6 Yak-3 over Ócsa met 13 Bf 109 at 3500 m. As a wingman of his leader, who was attacking a pair of Bf 109s got hit, bailed out, and with injured legs was sent to hospital.

5 VA, 13 GvIAD, 150 GvIAP, Yak-9D (S/N: 1815358), lost in Nagykáta area, Gv.1Lt. Nikolai Sergeevich Egorov, Sq. Comm. returned. At 11:54 local at 1000 m, 6 Yak-3 and 2 Yak-9 met a large group of 8 Fw 190, 8 Ju 87, escorted by 15 Bf 109. Egorov downed a Bf 109 and a Ju 87, but was hit, caught fire by a Fw 190 and bailed out. Landed on enemy territory, hid, then in the darkness returned to his own side.

5 VA, 331 IAD, 179 IAP, Yak-9M (S/N: 2715317), lost at Újszász-E, 5 km, Svistkov unhurt. Hit by flak in the Jászberény area, crashlanded burning at Újszász-E, 5 km Pilot returned on the next day.

5 VA, 331 IAD, 179 IAP, Yak-9T (S/N: 0215354). Lost near Zsámbok, Ml.Lt. Evgenii Ivanovich Teplishev MIA. At 13:50 local 4 Yaks, covering 6 IL-2 in the Jászberény area met 8 Bf 109. Got hit, crashlanded at Zsámbok-SW, 6 km.

312: 14.11.1944 – OVERCLAIM 11:35 LaGG-5 4./JG 52 98 494: at 2.000m
313: 14.11.1944 – POTENTIAL VICTORY? 11:45 LaGG-5 4./JG 52 08 471: at 800m


1 La-5 loss this day:

5 VA, 279 IAD, 92 IAP La-5FN (S/N: 39213519) Ml.Lt. Sergei Alexeevich Matveev injured. At 11:20 local 4+2 La-5 escorting 6 IL-2 vs. 2 ‘Fw 190’ and flak in the Valkó - Tarnaörs area. Engine and pilot’s head at 800 m was hit, lost consciousness, then at around 100-50 m he regained consciousness and with final effort took control and belly landed on soviet controlled territory. Plane written-off. A veeery lucky guy!

14 (9 Novosibirsk-, 5 Saratov-built) Yak-losses this day:

314: 16.11.1944 – POTENTIAL VICTORY 8:45 Yak-9 4./JG 52 98 368: at 4.000m
315: 16.11.1944 – POTENTIAL VICTORY 8:50 Yak-9 4./JG 52 98 487: at 1.000m


5 VA, 6 GvIAD, 31 GvIAP, Yak-9D (S/N: 2015370). Gv.Ml.Lt. Valerii Arkadevich Koptelov was unhurt. At 12:20 local, at 3000 m 4 Yaks were patrolling in the Jászberény-N area, when 2 of 6 Bf 109s attacked them in a frontal attack from below. After a 180 degree turn they started to chase the 109s. After the attack his engine started to smoke. Kortelov turned to the East towards the Tisza river and at 12 km East of Jászkisér at 800 m his engine caught fire. Pilot bailed out right away and landed safely. Returned on November 18, 1944 without his plane.

5 VA, 6 GvIAD, 73 GvIAP, Yak-9D (S/N: 2015315). Gv.Ml.Lt. Alexandr Stephanovich Shuvalov went missing. 10 Yaks, led by Lt.Col. Mikhailyuk were covering the soviet troops in the Jászberény - Pusztamonostor – Jászárokszállás triangle at 4000 m. Over Jászárokszállás the pair of Savchuk-Shuvalov separated from the group and Shuvalov went missing. Radio connection was good, dogfight was not reported. Fate is unknown. Perhaps Erich Hartmann caught him at 08:45?

5 VA, 6 GvIAD, 85 GvIAP, Yak-9D (S/N: 2015329). Mutually downed by Debrődy György fhdgy. (Hungarian 101/3. Sq., 26 kill Bf 109 ace) between Jászberény-Jászárokszállás in a ‘suicidal’, frontal attack. Gv.Ml.Lt. Ismail Semenovich Rulev exploded mid-air (KIA), Debrődy’s belly was shot through, with final effort belly landed along the Hatvan-Budapest RR line, rushed to hospital, saved. 1 bullet stayed in his body, removed in the U.S.A. after the war.

5 VA, 331 IAD, 122 IAP, Yak-1B (S/N: 22183). Landing accident at the airfield of Külső-Kiritó-N, 600-700 m at 15:20 local, after escorting the 90 GvShAP IL-2s to Hatvan. Ml.Lt. Mihail Ivanovich Sapa was unhurt.

5 VA, 331 IAD, 122 IAP, Yak-1B (S/N: 06179). Lost at Hatvan-S, Capt. Petr Grigorevich Artemev was KIA. At 12:00 4 Yak and six 92 GvShAP IL-2 in Hatvan area. Battle with 4-5 Fw 190, 4 Bf 109 at Csányi. Artemev was missing.

5 VA, 331 IAD, 122 IAP, Yak-9M (S/N: 2715305). Crashlanded at Törökszentmiklós-SE, 6 km, Ml.Lt. Boris Alexandrovich Horkin was injured. While covering 92 GvShAP IL-2s in the Hatvan area at 12:00 local, at 1300 m over Csányi a Fw 190 hit him, he lost altitude, then at 200 m another 6 Fw 190 attacked him, (2 of them collided behind him during the chase and probably crashed), then he crashlanded at Törökszentmiklós with leg injury.

5 VA, 331 IAD, 122 IAP, Yak-9 (S/N: 2515332). Lost at Jászfényszaru-E, 1Lt. Anatolii Mihailovich Znamenev went missing. 4 Yaks at 12:30 local at 1200 m escorted six 92 GvShAP IL-2 in the Hatvan area when they met 6 Bf 109. Formation loosened up, his leader returned to airfield alone.

5 VA, 331 IAD, 122 IAP, Yak-9 (S/N: 2515396). Lost at Jászfényszaru-NE, Ml.Lt. Ivan Constantinovich Babanin went missing. 4 Yak-9 at 12:20 local at 1200 m vs. 16 Bf 109 in the Hatvan area.

5 VA, 331 IAD, 179 IAP, Yak-1B (S/N: 12152). Lost at the airfield of Tiszapüspöki.
At 13:55 local, 4 Yaks covering 8 IL-2 of 91 GvShAP, returning from the Hatvan mission. Plane broken at landing due to bad weather/turbulance.

5 VA, 331 IAD, 513 IAP, Yak-9T (S/N: 1015328). Lost at Hatvan, pilot, Lt. Georgii Dorofeevich Yarovoy was KIA. At 10:52 local, 4 Yaks of 513 IAP (Capt. Malikov, Lt. Kovalenko, Lt. Astaskevich, Lt. Yarovoy) at 2000 m, while covering 264 ShAD IL-2s met 16 Fw 190. Downed during the 3rd attack by 4 Fw 190.

5 VA, 13 GvIAD, 149 GvIAP, Yak-9M (S/N: 3615389). Lost at Alsódabas-NE, 6 km. Gv.Ml.Lt. Vladimir Andreevich Ustich was injured. At 9:00 local, pair of recce. Yak-9s was checking the roads in the Hatvan-Budapest-Vác-Esztergom area. Near the city of Vác at 3500 m they met 6 Bf 109. First Ustich, then his wingman, Merzlenko claimed 1-1 Bf 109. Soon after this Ustich got minor hits into the fuselage. They headed for home, but while crossing the frontline, Ustich’s engine was hit by flak, his plane fell in the Alsódabas-NE area. Wingman Merzlenko returned home alone and landed safely. Ustich was picked up by own troops and was taken to hospital. Potential victory at 08:50.

5 VA, 13 GvIAD, 150 GvIAP, Yak-3 (S/N: 1229217). Lost at Pécel, Budapest-E. Gv.Lt. Sergei Grigorevich Yefimenkov MIA. At 15:15 local, 8 Yak-3 at 3000 m met 6 Bf 109 and 8 Fw 190. While covering his leader, he performed a frontal attack on one of the Bf 109s and was shot down. Fate unknown.

5 VA, 13 GvIAD, 150 GvIAP, Yak-3 (S/N: 3429214). Lost at Isaszeg, Budapest-E, Gv.Lt. Alexandr Nikolaevich Agdantsev went missing. At 13:42 local, between 2000-3500 m 8 Yaks covered their own troops and met 4 Bf 109. Agdantsev while protecting the first group of four was hit and bailed out with parachute. Downed by Gerhard Barkhorn (Stab.II/JG.52) at 13.40.

5 VA, 13 GvIAD, 150 GvIAP, Yak-9D (S/N: 2315371). Landing accident. In a dogfight over Kóka, pneumatic/hydraulic system got damaged, at landing ran into a parking IL-2. Pilot, Gv1Lt. Grigorii Yakovlevich Bekkerman was unhurt, plane written off.

On this very intense day of November 16, 1944 over the 2nd Ukrainian Front the soviet 5th Air Army reported the following losses:

3 IL-2
2 Yak-1B
3 La-5
3 Yak-3
7 Yak-9.

(Note, this list has a typo, as the real loss was 3 Yak-1B and 2 Yak-3, not 2 Yak-1B and 3 Yak-3!)

316: 17.11.1944 – OVERCLAIM 14:25 Boston III 4./JG 52 98 584: at 2.000m

2 A-20G Boston losses this day:

5 VA, 218 BAD, 453 BAP, A-20G-10-DO (S/N: 42-53956), lost at Ócsa, downed by Hungarian Bf 109 ace, Capt. Pottyondy László (102/2. Sq) at 14.30. Lt. Norayr Sumbatovich Danielyan was injured. Recce. flight over Budapest-S. Hungarian ace, Capt. Pottyondy this time flew in pair with Hartmann as his friend! The plane was delivered through the ‘ALSIB’ (Alaska-Siberia) route.

5 VA, 218 BAD, 453 BAP A-20G (S/N: 42-54223), lost at Kevermes-S, 1 km in a ferry flight, mech. Accident/fog. Capt. Vasilii Kirillovich Yurchenko was unhurt.

317: -OVERCLAIM 22.11.1944 11:40 Yak-9 4./JG 52 98 453: at 3.500m
318: -POTENTIAL VICTORY 22.11.1944 11:45 La-5 4./JG 52 98 452: at 4.500m
319: -OVERCLAIM 22.11.1944 - Il-2 4./JG 52 -
320: -OVERCLAIM 22.11.1944 - Il-2 4./JG 52 -
321: -OVERCLAIM 22.11.1944 - Il-2 4./JG 52 -
322: -OVERCLAIM 22.11.1944 - Yak-3 4./JG 52 –


1 La-5 and 1 IL-2 loss this day:

5 VA, 14 GvIAD, 177 GvIAP La-5FN (S/N: 39211746), Downed in dogfight in the Hatvan-E area, pilot Kovrigin unhurt.

5 VA, 264 ShAD, 809 ShAP IL-2m3 (S/N: 1878785), downed by flak at Gyöngyöspata. Six 809 ShAP IL-2, covered by six 513 IAP Yak-9 attacked ground targets at Gyöngyöspata. During the 2nd strike Polunin’s engine started to smoke. Plane lost altitude and belly landed at Csány-NE, 7 km. Crew of Lt. Fedor Stepanovich Polunin - Kuptsov unhurt. Repaired, then lost again, -this time permanently- on March 20, 1945 between Kocs-Dad, Hungary with the Ml.Lt. Volosyankin crew in 5 VA, 264 ShAD, 451 ShAP.


323: -OVERCLAIM 23.11.1944 - Yak-3 4./JG 52 -
324: -OVERCLAIM 23.11.1944 - Yak-9 4./JG 52 -
325: -OVERCLAIM 23.11.1944 - Yak-9 4./JG 52 -
326: -OVERCLAIM 23.11.1944 - Yak-9 4./JG 52 -
327: -POTENTIAL VICTORY? 23.11.1944 - Yak-9 4./JG 52 –


3 Yak losses this day, and only 2 in the air, during mission! Hartmann’s details are unknown, but thus 3 Yaks for sure (and in his case probably more) had to be overclaim out of his 5 claims…!!!

5 VA, 331 IAD, 122 IAP, Yak-1B (S/N: 32161). Take off accident. At 08:40 local, during take off Ml.Lt. Evgenii Semenovich Titov turned to the right and his right wing touched the ground. Plane broken, pilot unhurt. Plane written off without the engine as it remained in good condition and probably was reused later. Cannot be an aerial victory!

5 VA, 331 IAD, 513 IAP, Yak-1B (S/N: 29156, or 45168), Ml.lt. Yakov A. Goychenko unhurt. At 10:38 local, 6 Yaks, covering 6 IL-2 of the 809 ShAP in the Rózsaszentmárton (Rose-St. Martin) area met 6 Fw 190. 4 attacked the Yaks, 2 the ILs. Goychenko’s radiator got hit, force landed at Kál-S, 15 km. Plane not subject to repair, pilot unhurt.

5 VA, 331 IAD, 513 IAP, Yak-1B (S/N: 29156, or 45168), Ml.Lt. Pavel Petrovich Kuyanov MIA/KIA. At 10:38 local, 6 Yaks, covering 6 IL-2 of the 809 ShAP in the Rózsaszentmárton (Rose-St. Martin) area met 6 Fw 190. 4 attacked the Yaks, 2 the ILs. Kuyanov fell behind his formation and was brought down immediately. Plane fell and crashed in the target area. (Lipfert’s 158., ‘Yak-9’ victory at 10:40 at nearby Atkár! - confirmed)

328: -OVERCLAIM 5.12.1944 13:20 LaGG-5 4./JG 52 98 419: at 1.200m
329: -OVERCLAIM 5.12.1944 13:25 LaGG-5 4./JG 52 98 278: at 1.000m


1 La-5 loss this day:

5 VA, 279 IAD, 486 IAP, La-5FN (S/N: 39212724), lost at Ercsi, Budapest-S. Ml.Lt. Vladimir Grigorevich Snagovskii was MIA. At 11:55 local, recce. pair, led by Lt. Blinov vs. 6 ‘Fw 190’. Snagowskii was shot down and MIA.

330: -OVERCLAIM 9.12.1944 13:10 Yak-9 4./JG 52 88 683: at 2.000m
331: -OVERCLAIM 9.12.1944 13:20 Yak-9 4./JG 52 88 694: at 2.000m


3 Yak losses this day:

5 VA, 13 GvIAD, 150 GvIAP, Yak-3 (S/N: 2329218). Lost at his airfield (crashlanding) after recce. mission to Baracska area. Gv.Ml. Lt. Lev Gerasimovich Kamanyan was unhurt. At 14:50 local, at 1000 m 2 Yak-3 and 2 Yak-9 in the Baracska area met up to 20 Fw 190s, attacking the soviet first lines. While covering his leader, Kamanyan was hit. After return, during landing his engine gave up. Plane crashed, pilot unhurt.

5 VA, 331 IAD, 513 IAP, Yak-9M (S/N: 2515361). Lost at Tiszanána. At 13:50 local, at 1500 m, 4 Yak-9 were escorting 6 IL-2 of the 809 ShAP in the Csömör area. Over the target the plane was hit by flak and after return, crashlanded at Tiszanána. Plane broken, 1Lt. Vasilii Pavlovich Fedosov, Sq. commander was unhurt.

5 VA, 331 IAD, 513 IAP, (Omsk-built) Yak-9D (S/N: 19166063). At 13:20 they took off to protect IL-2s in the Veresegyháza area. During landing the soil was too soft and the plane nosed in. Pilot, Capt. Alexandr Kuzmich Fokin had bruises on his hands while protecting his face.

That’s all. No more soviet AC losses, - only the long Axis claims.
Gabor

Nick Hector 27th December 2019 15:26

Re: Hartmann: claims vs. victories
 
Wow, Gabor.

Just... ...wow.


By the way, I hope you enjoyed the Barkhorn update in Edward's "100 club" thread.

Nick

HGabor 27th December 2019 15:30

Re: Hartmann: claims vs. victories
 
Thanks Nick, that was great!
Cheers,
Gabor

Nick Hector 27th December 2019 15:33

Re: Hartmann: claims vs. victories
 
Very welcome

zakarpatska 27th December 2019 17:46

Re: Hartmann: claims vs. victories
 
I have a quick question about the claims/losses. If I've understood correctly Hartmann's claims here are related to the losses of the type of aircraft Hartmann claimed. Is it possible that there are situations where Hartmann identified the type of aircraft incorrectly and that there is a corresponding loss, but of a different type of aircraft?

I apologize if I have missed something, or if this has been addressed somewhere else. I'm just trying to understand the information presented.

On a side note I am interested in Red Air Force operations. Are there any good references in English/German on the Red Air Force? Sadly, I don't read Russian.

Franek Grabowski 27th December 2019 21:36

Re: Hartmann: claims vs. victories
 
Gabor, I would not put too much confidence in recognition skills, so I would rather check for any single engined aircraft lost in respective areas.

igorrB 28th December 2019 03:30

Re: Hartmann: claims vs. victories
 
As i figure out from researching Far North air battles, in big skirmishes pilots easily mix up all types of planes. Yak's in reality may be Hurricanes, P-40 and even P-39. Il-2 was P-40 and vice versa.

Nick Hector 28th December 2019 03:44

Re: Hartmann: claims vs. victories
 
Naturally,

But either a loss occurred... ....or it didn't.

HGabor 28th December 2019 05:41

Re: Hartmann: claims vs. victories
 
Yes, this is a theoretical possibility, but in case of Hartmann, I do not think it would be true. First: in the soviet 5th Air Army there were only Yak, or La fighters in the fall of 1944. No P-40s, no Airacobras, or others. Only the radial engine Lavochkins, and the V-engine Yaks. Second: We all know that Hartmann usually opened fire from a very close range. This was his well working tactics. (And this is exactly why often he could not see what really happened to the hit/damaged opponent after his ambush.) But from that close range the Yaks and the Lavochkins were so different in size and shape, that I do not think, that an experienced veteran like Hartmann, could mix up their types. Perhaps the subtype, but not the make. Certainly, I can check the other fighter losses for the mentioned days. I just need some time. (Although I do not expect too much result from it.)

Gabor

Franek Grabowski 28th December 2019 16:36

Re: Hartmann: claims vs. victories
 
You could be really surprised with the scale of misidentification in air combat. I would stick to the rule that any single engined aircraft could have been the target, even friendly.


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