Re: Seeking to ID this Photo/Caption from Phoney War/Sitzkrieg "Messerschmitt"
 

Lovely crater...

ClinA-78

Re: Seeking to ID this Photo/Caption from Phoney War/Sitzkrieg "Messerschmitt"
 

Post No.5: It appears to me that the link to a photo blog on GC II/5 might actually be relevant - photos No.16 and 17 are captioned as "photo 16 : 1939 - novembre- le 6 - Slt Tremolet", which reads "6 November 1939 - Slt. Tremolet (i.e., the pilot)". So this Hawk 75 coded "Yellow 3" would be the only GC II/5 casualty of the day.

Re: Seeking to ID this Photo/Caption from Phoney War/Sitzkrieg "Messerschmitt"
 

Hi Larry,
Avions 157 (pages 4 - 14) mentions in the article " The battle of " 9 against 27 " " by Lionel Persyn the following details about the Bf109's which crashed in France :

One Bf109 crashed at Antilly. Pilot Oberleutnant Waldemar Von Roon, Staffelkapitän of I./JGr 102, is seriously injured and will not survive. His plane was shot down by sergent Legrand.
The second one crashed at Ittersdorf. The pilot, Leutnant Günter Voigt of Stab/JGr 102, baled out and was taken prisoner. This plane was shot down by sergent Edouard Salès.
A third one is shot down at Anzeling. His pilot, Feldwebel Fritz Gielh of the I.Staffel is also taken prisoner. His plane was shot down by aspirant Lefol.
A last Bf109 crashed at Hunnenberg. The pilot Oberleutnant Josef Kellner-Steinmetz, Staffelkapitän of 3./JGr 102, is killed aboard his plane. His plane was shot down by sergent Edouard Salès (2° victory).

Another one crashed in Germany (pilot Unteroffizier Hans Jenning, aircraft for 70 % destroyed).
3 other ones returned damaged to their base at Lachen-Speyersdorf.

A scanned copy of the article can be supplied.



A few comments from my side regarding the photographs published :
The plane dived with high speed in the ground.
I don't think that a pilot aboard this plane could have survived this crash. Can it be presumed that the pilot was dead or that he bailed out ?
The photograph must have been taken very shortly after the crash.
A lot of people are watching something, but they are not watching in the direction of the plane. Are they watching the pilot ?
Was this huge crater caused by the crash of the Bf109 ?
Are the many people on the photograph soldiers ? If so, the plane must have crashed close to a military installation where a lot of them were stationed, sa. Anzeling (a Maginot-fortress).

Best regards from Belgium

Luc

Re: Seeking to ID this Photo/Caption from Phoney War/Sitzkrieg "Messerschmitt"
 

Luc, Sidney, et. al.

Between these posts and a private direct response, I'm convinced that this shows one of the crashed Bf109Ds of I./JGr102 that were lost in the famous air battle on 06.11.39. So we've pinpointed the date and the specific air battle, but cannot yet associate this photo with a particular loss since four of them seem possible:

From the EoE LW Loss List:

"1) Stab JGr.102Messerschmitt Bf109D-1. Shot down by Asp Lefol of GC II/5 in combat south-west of Saarlautern and abandoned over Anzeling 3.00 p.m. (Ff) Lt Günther Voigt (Gruppen NO) baled out and captured unhurt. Aircraft 100% write-off.

2) 1./JGr.102Messerschmitt Bf109D-1. Exploded under attack by Sgt A. Legrand of GC II/5 and crashed near Antilly, 10 km north of Metz 3.00 p.m. (Ff) Oberlt Waldemar von Roon (Staffelkapitän) badly wounded, died two days later. Aircraft 100% write-off.

3) 1./JGr.102Messerschmitt Bf109D-1. Shot down in combat with Curtiss H-75s of GC II/5 and crashed 30 km east of Metz 3.10 p.m. Believed that claimed by Sgt E. Salès near Eincheville. (Ff) Fw Fritz Giehl baled out and captured unhurt. Aircraft 100% write-off.

4) 3./JGr.102Messerschmitt Bf109D-1. Engine set alight under attack by Sgt E. Salès of GC II/5 east of Hesdorf and abandoned over Hunnenberg 3.00 p.m. (Ff) Oberlt Josef Kellner-Steinmetz (Staffelkapitän) baled out but killed. Aircraft 100% write-off."

All four of these are generally E & N of Metz towards the German border and within about 25km of each other.

Some comments on the crash photo:

1) I think that this "109" crashed into the side of a gully or ravine, and what we're seeing is not a bomb crater, or even a crater made by the crash, but mostly a terrain feature of the crash site.

2) The pilot certainly was either killed or bailed out.

In a perfect world, for our EoE coverage we would like to show on the German side photos of all four crash sites, photos of the damaged a/c that force-landed or returned to base, photos of the pilots shot down and killed or captured, and, on the French side, photos of the main French participants, including the successful pilots and their a/c, including the force-landed Curtiss referred to in an earlier post on this thread and for which at least two good photos exist.

What we already have, besides this photo, is a poor quality photo of Bf109D-1 "Red 7" FL somewhere in western Germany from this combat:

1) "2./JGr.102 Messerschmitt Bf109D-1. Belly-landed damaged following combat with Curtiss H-75s of GC II/5 over Metz 3.00 p.m. Possibly that damaged by Asp Lefol. Pilot unhurt. Aircraft Red 7 + repairable." (via Prien Collection)

and

2) A photo of an a/c of JGr102 Bf109D-1, with the tail and rear fuselage badly shot up that landed back at Lachen-Speyerdorf. This was W.Nr.519 and carried three victory tabs of the fin of the Gr Adj., Lt Harwig-Boris Domeier, who probably piloted the a/c that day. This is already one of our EoE Color Profile aircraft.

Who can help us take this further, including identifying the specific crash seen in the posted photo?

Re: Seeking to ID this Photo/Caption from Phoney War/Sitzkrieg "Messerschmitt"
 

If you look at the picture carefully, you can see a soldier in full kit carrying a loaded stretcher. That is what everyone is looking at. Just to the right of the central figure in the helmet and greatcoat. That would suggest that the crash was either #2 or #4.

Re: Seeking to ID this Photo/Caption from Phoney War/Sitzkrieg "Messerschmitt"
 

Mark,

Good observation and deduction. Can anyone, using google satellite views or street view, locate somewhere around either of these places that looks like the background for the photo? I know that there isn't much to see--generally flat with gently rolling terrain, but this may rule out some other areas that have more rugged terrain. Or maybe someone in France lives near the area and could check out the four sites? They're not very far apart. It would be wonderful if we could find the exact location--and perhaps local photos for any of the other three Bf109D crashes that day.

Re: Seeking to ID this Photo/Caption from Phoney War/Sitzkrieg "Messerschmitt"
 

My two cents,

Even if I am not familiar with those locations, Antilly, Eincheville and Hunnenberg landscapes have large flat lands. Anzeling has hedges and is a roughly forested area. Beware, it is only a guess.
The crater seems big for a single-engined aircraft however prepare to dig there... Funny for a Phoney crash :D

I remember to have seen similar crash pictures in Icare revue.

ClinA-78

Re: Seeking to ID this Photo/Caption from Phoney War/Sitzkrieg "Messerschmitt"
 

ClinA-78,

Thanx for the comments. I have many old issues of Icare, but not Icare Review. No familiar with those. Any possibility of forwarding a scan of any photos you've seen there possibly relating to this incident?

Re: Seeking to ID this Photo/Caption from Phoney War/Sitzkrieg "Messerschmitt"
 

I will dig it up...

Re: Seeking to ID this Photo/Caption from Phoney War/Sitzkrieg "Messerschmitt"
 

Hello,

Have now received the original press photo that this image came from. It is still very grainy which makes me think that it was a frame from a movie film. Anybody have any thoughts on where that film might be available? Perhaps a caption with it will give us a location that will link to one of the four possible crash sites.