Bf109A,B,C,D in Legion Condor
 

I have seen several sources claiming certain 6oXX number ranges are particular variants, and pretty much all of them are conflicting.
As provided by Michael, Laureau in his book Condor: The Luftwaffe in Spain 1936-1939, gives the following serial allocations -
6-1 to 6-3 V; 6-4 to 6-45 B; 6-46 to 6-50 C; 6-51 to 6-86 D; 6-87 to 6-131 E
Sidney, in another thread you stated that up to 6o60 were B's, and from 6o61 were D's. Could you please let me know where this information came from? Can you please provide more detail of what you have?
Does anyone have what they consider to be definitive information on which serial ranges applied to which versions?
Thanks
Peter

Re: Bf109A,B,C,D in Legion Condor
 

Hello Peter

According to Juan Arraez Cerda in his study on Spanish Messerschmitt (translated into French by Patrick Laureau),here is his conclusion:

Prototypes V3 and V4:6-1 and 6-2
Serie B-1:6-3 to 6-18
Serie B-2:6-19 to 6-58
Serie C-1:6-59 to 6-78
Serie D-1:6-79 to 6-86,plus the 6-95
Serie E-1 and E-3:6-87 to 6-31

E-1 known:6-115,6-116,6-119,6-120,6-121,6-122,6-124,and 6-125

Michel

Re: Bf109A,B,C,D in Legion Condor
 

Michel, do you have a year for Cerda's study? And maybe when Laureau translated it?
The book by Laureau I mentioned in my post was released (as far as I can tell) in 2000.
Given the 2 sources have different info, it might be worthwhile knowing which is the latest.
Peter

Re: Bf109A,B,C,D in Legion Condor
 

1997
I don't known his book in english (2000)....his book of 1999 (la legion condor by Patrick Laureau and José Fernandez 1999 )?

Re: Bf109A,B,C,D in Legion Condor
 

Good afternoon Gentlemen,

is this mess due to the semi-official character of the Legion Condor ?
Or has any of the authors simply made serious mistakes in allocating the subtypes ?

Cheers,

Michael

Re: Bf109A,B,C,D in Legion Condor
 

A Bf 109 D-1 coded 6-96...

Re: Bf109A,B,C,D in Legion Condor
 

A Bf 109 D-1 coded 6-97...

Re: Bf109A,B,C,D in Legion Condor
 

Peter, I will try to provide some photographic evidence.

Regards,
Sinisa

Re: Bf109A,B,C,D in Legion Condor
 

A Bf 109 B coded 6-47...

Re: Bf109A,B,C,D in Legion Condor
 

Seemingly a Bf 109 D-1 coded 6-59.

Re: Bf109A,B,C,D in Legion Condor
 

Hello Sidney. Thanks for the photos and the assistance.
Unfortunately, I'm afraid I'm not aware of the minor detail differences between the variants to be able to tell the difference, and the photo quality is also a hurdle.
I know the B series had wooden, then retrofitted metal 2 bladed props, and the C introduced wing guns, but otherwise .........
I think the captions on some photos are also erroneous. I have a photo of 6o32 in the Osprey book on the A-D series and they say it's a D.
You mentioned that the D had the electrical socket on the starboard side under the cockpit before, but it's difficult to see in many of the photos. Was the socket provision on the port side retained as well? I ask because I'm pretty sure I've seen photos captioned D with a socket on the port side.
Peter

Re: Bf109A,B,C,D in Legion Condor
 

Peter,

You are welcome.

The electrical socket and oxygen filler point were retained on the starboard side of the aircraft, but their respective position differed between the Bf 109 B (under the cockpit) and Bf 109 C/D (slightly behind the cockpit), as you can see on the attached photos - 6-47 (B) and 6-59 (apparently D-1).

Regards,
Sinisa

Re: Bf109A,B,C,D in Legion Condor
 

Hello Sinisa.
Yes, I noticed the socket below and behind the canopy. So you're saying all the electrical sockets were on the starboard side?
On some photos and many profiles there is a very small round panel which could be a socket or filler of some sort under the centre of the canopy on the port side. Example attached.
Any idea what that is? Fuel filler?
Peter

Re: Bf109A,B,C,D in Legion Condor
 

Yes, it is the fuel filler point on early Bf 109s, and also in the same position on the Friedrichs (i.e., Bf 109 Fs).

Re: Bf109A,B,C,D in Legion Condor
 

Thanks again. Sidney or Sinisa or either?
I take it then the attached is not a B as captioned?
I'll keep digging.
Cheers
Peter

Re: Bf109A,B,C,D in Legion Condor
 

Peter, either is good.

It would appear as C or D to me.

Regards,
Sinisa

Re: Bf109A,B,C,D in Legion Condor
 

Good morning Peter, Sidney and Michel,

interesting thread that reveals a mess in the literature about the Bf109 types used in Spain.
Can we at least safely say that Werner Mölders scored all his Spain kills in a D-Type ?

Cheers,

Michael

Re: Bf109A,B,C,D in Legion Condor
 

Not so sure about that Michael - after Norbert Flegel crash landed Bf109B-1 6o7 in Sep 1937, it was repaired and flown by Molders, per Laureau in the Condor book.
Given Molders' first kill was July 1938, it would seem likely it was in a D, but I don't know if we can say that for certain without more information.
Peter

Re: Bf109A,B,C,D in Legion Condor
 

Good afternoon Peter,

from Matti I learned that Mölders scored his first kill in 6-79.

Cheers,

Michael

Re: Bf109A,B,C,D in Legion Condor
 

I'd say that settles it then. The E did not enter production until late 1938. Do we know when the first E arrived in Spain?
Peter

Re: Bf109A,B,C,D in Legion Condor
 

Good morning Peter,

Wings Palette offers a 6-79 profile with 15 victory bars (which includes his unconfirmed claim).
http://wp.scn.ru/en/ww15/f/139/67/3
So far, I think we can assume 14 Mölders kills in 6-79, can we not ?

Have a nice Wednesday,

Michael

Re: Bf109A,B,C,D in Legion Condor
 

Sorry Michael, we could ..... but while many of the profiles on that site are accurate, many are not. It could well be that someone took a bit of artistic licence and said, well, he had 14+1, so I'll put that on the tail.
From memory there have been instances of that mentioned on this forum.
Without a photo you just never know for sure.
For 6o79 I have a photo with 4, a photo with 12, a model kit with 3 and a decal set from a company which is unfortunately known to take a bit of licence with 15.
So 12 is the highest confirmed score I have.
I also have a profile from Osprey's Aces of the Legion Condor book by Robert Forsythe which claims to be based on a photo taken in late 1938 showing 15 bars arranged as in the abovementioned decal set.
Peter

Re: Bf109A,B,C,D in Legion Condor
 

Good afternoon Peter,

if memory serves me well this book
https://www.amazon.de/Jagdflieger-Ob...r+m%C3%B6lders
features a photo of Mölders' rudder showing 15 victory bars.
The book is in the Brandenburg library, which I can visit next Monday.

Furthermore, I'll check this journal which is at home.
https://www.amazon.de/Milit%C3%A4r-G...r+m%C3%B6lders

I'll report to you, sincerely,

Michael

Re: Bf109A,B,C,D in Legion Condor
 

Hello,

You will also find a photo of the LC Bf 109 with 15 kill markings in this publication:

German Aircraft Markings 1939-1945
Merrick,K A
London:Ian Allan,1977
p.32

The caption reads:

Above: Fifteen kill markings on the fin of what is believed to be Werner Molders' Bf 109. It was previously thought that Molders had achieved only 14 kills in Spain. Camouflage appears to be 62 Green, the damaged paintwork revealing the 02 primer coat. Source: (J) Greiner Collection.

Col.

Re: Bf109A,B,C,D in Legion Condor
 

Thanks Col. Does the photo allow you to confirm it is 6o79?
Thanks
Peter

Re: Bf109A,B,C,D in Legion Condor
 

So everything Luftwaffe upto 31 August 1939 will
be moved to pre-WWII?

Re: Bf109A,B,C,D in Legion Condor
 

Peter.

No. The photograph shows only the fin and the rudder. Seven white kill bars in top row, Eight in the bottom row, usual white painted rudder with black cross.

Col.

Re: Bf109A,B,C,D in Legion Condor
 

Well, the SCW was before WW2, so I'd have to agree in this case this is where the thread belongs
Peter

Re: Bf109A,B,C,D in Legion Condor
 

Thanks Col. Let's see what Michael can find next week.
Cheers

Re: Bf109A,B,C,D in Legion Condor
 

For those who own it, Werner Held's album "The Day Fighters" has a picture of what is purported to be Moelders' rudder with 15 victory markings on the tail. Page 18. Not sure if it is the same image that Col refers to.

Here is my break-down of Moelders' claims, can anyone provide details of the unconfirmed victory?

SPAIN
1st claim
15.7.38 I-15 ("Curtiss") Algar/Villamalur
Day's losses include Felipe Cirujeda Esteve of 1a Esc, Grupo 26; Jose Redondo of 1a Esc apparently by collision with Bf109; one I-15 lost to a collision with an I-16 (pilot of I-16 named Pastor)

2nd claim
17.7.38 I-15 ("Curtiss") N of Liria
2a Esc, Grupo 26 lost Felipe Barroso Calvo KIA (exploded in mid-air, attributed to Moelders), 2 other pilots baled out WIA

3rd claim
19.7.38 I-16 "Rata" W of Villar del Arzobispo
Grupo 21. Day's losses include Eduardo Gonzalez Casola of 1e Esc plus Ilya Grigorevich Shugurov (el Toro/Levant sector) KIA. From 17.7.38 to 23.7.38 there were nine I-16s lost and seven I-15s

4th claim
19.8.38 I-16 "Rata" Flix
Day's losses include Vasilii Fedorovich Vorobyov KIA (some sources say he was KIA 21.8.38 but no claims that day)

5th claim
23.8.38 SB-2 Albi
Grupo 12 or Grupo 24. No further details…

6th claim
9.9.38 I-16 "Rata" Flix
Grupo 21. No further details

7th claim
13.9.38 I-16 "Rata" Flix
Grupo 21. No further details

8th claim
23.9.38 I-16 "Rata" Ginestar sector
(plus another one unconfirmed)
Only one known loss this date: 3a Esc, Grupo 21 lost pilot Margalef KIA (versus at least 7 claims)

9th claim
10.10.38 I-16 "Rata" NE of Flix
Grupo 21. No further details

10th and 11th claims
15.10.38 2 x I-16 “Ratas” La Figuera - Sierra de Montsant
Believed to be 3 losses by unit of Sergei Gritsevits this date (versus 4 claims in total)

12th and 13th claims
31.10.38 2 x I-16 “Ratas” NW of Flix - E of Ribarroja
Grupo 21. Day's I-16 losses include CM-219 of 1a Esc Vicente Beltran Rodrigo KIA. Grupo's 6a Esc also in action this date

14th claim
3.11.38 I-16 "Rata" Mora de Ebro or Mola area
3a Esc, 4a Esc, 5a Esc and 6a Esc Grupo 21 all definitely in action this date, details pending

Re: Bf109A,B,C,D in Legion Condor
 

Hello,

Victory No.9.
Date: 23 September 1938
Aircraft: "Rata"
Location: Ginestar.
Rejected by RLM, Berlin.

Second claim (No.8), on this date, verified.

Source:
Werner "Vati" Molders.
Michulec,Robert
Tarnobrzeg (Pol.):Mushroom Model Publications,2000
(Blue Series No.1)
p.11

NB. On pp.81-2 of the above reference, there is a coloured 4-view of Molder's Bf 109 D 6-79, with the 15 kill markings. Caption: Bf 109 D. "Vatti's" [sic] personal aircraft after his last kill in Spain. Upper surfaces RLM 63, lower RLM 65.

Please excuse the lack of umlauts in Molders surname.

Col.

Re: Bf109A,B,C,D in Legion Condor
 

Ah... Thanks, Col.
I actually have that one packed away somewhere. I will dig it out and update my database accordingly.

Many thanks!

Re: Bf109A,B,C,D in Legion Condor
 

Good morning Peter,

I checked the journal at home. Nothing conclusive. No 6-79 photo. The article (no author mentioned) proposes that after he flew the He51 for two months, Mölders' unit transitioned to Bf109B's in mid-1938. I wonder if this is valid.

Cheers,

Michael

Re: Bf109A,B,C,D in Legion Condor
 

Good morning Peter,

I checked the Obermaier/Held book in the library.
It shows only the rudder with the 15 kill bars. No fuselage.

Cheers,

Michael

Re: Bf109A,B,C,D in Legion Condor
 

OK, thanks .....

Werner Mölders - 13 September 1938
 

Hi Nick

Evgeny Velichko posted some information (later edited by Francisco) that Oberleutnant Werner Mölders engaged several I-16 fighters and was responsible for the loss of various of these on 13 September 1938. Apparently, Teniente Jaime San Colom of the 7ª Escuadrilla was shot down and killed in CM-125, two other Moscas were shot down as well (CM-154 and CM-178) although their pilots bailed out, another pilot of the 3ª Escuadrilla in CM-138 was wounded and Andrés Fierro Menú of the 3ª Escuadrilla landed by error in CM-192 on a Nationalist airfield. You can find the original information at: http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/showth...aime+San+Colom I hope this helps and any comments or corrections will be appreciated.

Horrido!

Leo

Re: Bf109A,B,C,D in Legion Condor
 

Good morning,

maybe it's possible to prove that Mölders' last Spain kill was before the Bf109E entered service.
The E-1 entered service in February 1939:
https://community.infinite-flight.co...variants/65317
But the same website says also 10 E-0's entered service. Were they sent to Spain ?

Kind regards,

Michael

Re: Bf109A,B,C,D in Legion Condor
 

Regarding the E, I asked basically the same question back in post #20 with no response. According to the book Bf109A-D by Ariel Barbio -

...the principal variant used ..... was the Bf109B-2. .... At he end of 1938 37 Bf109s were in service ..... At the end of March 1939, 40 Bf109Es were acquired .....

Unfortunately the numbers at end of 1938 don't balance with Laureau - he bsays there were 86 B-D's, with 35 losses = 51. Is Barbio suggesting 14 were somehow out of service/unserviceable? I would have thought "in service" in that context would mean all available.

Barbio also states Molders arrived in May 1938 when III./J88 was equipped with the B-2. Unfortunately it does not say when they were replaced by D's. Molders first kill was July 1938.

What about the 2 extra kills mentioned by Evgeny? Does anyone have anything to corroborate this?

Cheers
Peter

Re: Bf109A,B,C,D in Legion Condor
 

According to the information that I have Hptm. Douglas Pitcairn of the 3. Staffel (i.e., 3. J/88) was replaced by Hptm. Adolf Galland on 27 July 1937, who in turn was replaced by Hptm. Werner Mölders on 24 May 1938. The Staffel was was still flying the obsolescent He 51 and was relegated to the ground attack duties, but converted to the Bf 109 D-1 aircraft in July/August 1938.

Re: Bf109A,B,C,D in Legion Condor
 

Thanks Sidney. That might also explain his kills starting mid July.
Peter