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-   -   Late war Bf 109 pictures source (http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/showthread.php?t=27108)

Cpt_Farrel 25th January 2013 15:34

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
Great connection between the background of 334265 and the new machine! The camoflage on 334265 is not the style used at Flossenbürg though, at least not if I've understood those theories right. I haven't looked into it as much as you though.

I still think it looks more like a single hardstand, the woods behind seems a little too dense even for wingless fuselages.

Cheers! / Anders

Marc-André Haldimann 25th January 2013 15:53

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
Thanks Anders!

As for W.Nr 334 265 camouflage, it is totally anachronistic! It's the classical Mtt camo for the W.Nr 330 000 - 331 000 production block. Franzee over on LEMB surmises this could be a give away that recycled damaged airframes were processed as well through the final assembly line at Vilseck- Weissenohe and then test-flown at Amberg-Schafhof.

One could event take a step further and think of a Werftreparatur shop in Amberg-Schafhof itself... Matter for thought?

Cheers
Marc

Cpt_Farrel 26th January 2013 13:56

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
It was you who reminded me a while ago that there were more aircraft in the 334 series with that high fuselage demarcation. Could they all have been repaired airframes? I think they look a little clean for that. You mentioned the possibility that the differences could've been stemming from various production lines, could that be a possibility still? Again, the different waldwerke and productionlines are not my strong side, yet! :)

/Anders

Marc-André Haldimann 27th January 2013 16:32

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
Hi there Anders,

Good point there! I've just checked my files and here are the results, taken only from the certainly identified W.Nr's in the 334 000 batch:

A. Mtt-"Bürg" fuselages low visibility camouflage scheme:

1. Bf 109 K-4 W.Nr. 334 156, Erfurt, Summer 1945. Mol and Janda 2000, p. 56.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/2809206...57625380126592

2. Bf 109 K-4 W.Nr. 334 158 "Weisse 7", 13./JG 27, Oblt. Ernst-Georg Altnorhoff, Achmer, March 1945. Source: Internet.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/2809206...57625380126592

3. Bf 109 K-4 W.Nr. 334 161, Mtt employee Martin Gattinger, Cham-Michelsdorf, March 1945. Mol and Janda 2000, p . 19.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/2809206...57625380126592

4. Bf 109 K-4 WNr 334 175, III./JG 51, Junkertroylhof, April 1945. Collection Aders, published in Prien & Rodeike 1995, p. 174.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/2809206...57625380126592

5. Bf 109 K-4 W.Nr. 334 176 "Gelbe 1" II./JG 3, Uffz. Martin Deskau, Pasewalk, March 1945. Collection Deskau, published in Hitchcock 1979, cover and p. 3
http://www.flickr.com/photos/2809206...7625380126592/

6. Bf 109 K-4 W.Nr. 334 186, III./JG27, April 1945, Bykev. Rajlich, Kokoska and Janda 2001, p. 144.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/2809206...57625380126592

7. Bf 109 K-4 W.Nr. 334 209, unit unknown, Köthen, Germany, 15 April 1945. Source: Stockum Collection via stories.windmillpro.com.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/2809206...57625380126592

8. Bf 109 K-4 WNr 334 210 "Weisse 4" 11./JG. 3, Fw Strebel, Pasewalk, March 1945. Collection Suhr, published in Prien & Rodeike 1995, p. 174.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/2809206...57625380126592


B. Recycled "old" fuselage or other Waldwerk (?) high camouflage demarcation line:

1. Bf 109 K-4 W.Nr. 334 183, Kastrup, May 1945. Poruba and Mol 2000, p. 38.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/2809206...57625380126592

2. Bf 109 K-4 W.Nr. 334 265, Amberg-Schafhof, May 1945. Poruba and Janda 1997, p. 74.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/2809206...57625380126592

As always so far, not enough evidence... Still, there are more fuselages then the odd W.Nr. 334 265 case as shows W.Nr. 334 183 found in Kastrup. There might be a third case, the dismantled fuselage found and photographed in Fürth, W. Nr. 33? 234. What are the figures? Of the ten documented W.Nr's, eight are finished in the low-visibility camouflage typical of Mtt-Flossenbürg fuselages, and only two in the old Mtt camouflage style prominent in the 330 000 - 331 000 batches.

Is this enough of a clue? I'm unsure, Anders. Let's extend our search:
- Is there any clue this oddity repeats itself in the other documents production batches?
Interestingly, this is not the case: seventeen of the eighteen 332 000 batch W.Nr. known airframes and all the four 335 000 batch W.Nr. known airframes show the low visibility low-camouflage pattern. None sports the "old" high demarcation line on their fuselage which, by the way, is not documented beyond W.Nr. 331 413 so far. As an aside note , one can notice an "intermediate" fuselage camouflage demarcation line showing up in both 331 000 (one instance: W.Nr. 331 461 ) and 332 000 (one instance: W.Nr. 332 429) batches: the division line runs along the middle line of the fuselage Balkenkreuz.

Given this "global" view, the "old" high demarcation line shown both by W.Nr. 334 183 and 334 265 is something of a peculiarity: those airframes remain isolated and, maybe together with W.Nr. 33? 234 do speak more for a recycling of older airframes then the making of new ones. Let's now wait for another 200 photographically documented airframes before we can nail down for sure this lead;-))

Cheers
Marc

D.B. Andrus 1st February 2013 01:51

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
Here's a fairly rare shot of a 331XXX series K-4:

http://i961.photobucket.com/albums/a...ps1d1e4e1c.jpg

W.Nr. 331413, don't know location. Unit could be JG 4 or possibly dark blue banded JG 300?

Any more information re. this a/c would be appreciated.

Cheers,

D.B.

Marc-André Haldimann 1st February 2013 08:26

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
Hi D.B.,

Thanks for your input. There are two pictures known for this plane which, according to Eric Mombeek is a 1./JG 4 plane.

Bf 109 K-4 W.Nr. 331 413 "Weisse 4", 1./JG 4, Spring 1945. Mombeek 2001, p. 184.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/2809206...57625380126592
http://www.flickr.com/photos/2809206...7625380126592/

After checking out the possible location for this wreck on Michael Holm's great site, it might have been left behind in Darmstadt, where I./JG 4 was based until 22 January 1945, and found by a US unit in March when the city was overrun.

Cheers
Marc

D.B. Andrus 1st February 2013 20:52

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Marc-André Haldimann (Post 161473)
Hi D.B.,

Thanks for your input. There are two pictures known for this plane which, according to Eric Mombeek is a 1./JG 4 plane.

Bf 109 K-4 W.Nr. 331 413 "Weisse 4", 1./JG 4, Spring 1945. Mombeek 2001, p. 184.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/2809206...57625380126592
http://www.flickr.com/photos/2809206...7625380126592/

After checking out the possible location for this wreck on Michael Holm's great site, it might have been left behind in Darmstadt, where I./JG 4 was based until 22 January 1945, and found by a US unit in March when the city was overrun.

Cheers
Marc

Thank you very much, Marc.

D.B.

Marc-André Haldimann 2nd February 2013 09:32

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
You're welcome, D.B. Alas, as for too many late war planes, no hint at any operational history...

Cheers
Marc

magyarmesszer 3rd February 2013 16:29

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
Have a look at my site! You will find several interesting photos.
http://indafoto.hu/magyarmesszer/collections

I need information about this Bf 109. It was a hungarian built G14 captured by US troops. Where and where were these photos taken?
http://indafoto.hu/magyarmesszer/ima...46ad62c/350415
http://indafoto.hu/magyarmesszer/ima...3ff53e9/350415

Marc-André Haldimann 3rd February 2013 20:30

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
Szia Magyarmesszer!

Gyönyörü képek, gratùlalòk és szoksor köszönöm! Az édes anyam magyar;-))

Thanks very much for your great link; you have indeed many new to me pictures.

As for your question, according to the published W.Nr. lists by Lynn Rittger (2007), all 101 Vadaszezred planes were found either in Raffelding, Zeltweg or Neubieberg. Photographic evidence also shows some planes found their way in Kirchdorf-Micheldorf, Austria:

Bf 109 G-14 W.Nr. 511 ... (?) "Fehér 5", 101 Vadaszezred, Kirchdorf - Micheldorf, April 24, 1945. Source: Collection John W. Oberstar, 11th Armored Division via thefirearmsforum.com.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/2809206...57625539907434
http://www.flickr.com/photos/2809206...7625539907434/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/2809206...7625539907434/

Bf 109 G-10 W.Nr. 612 770 "Fehér 4", 101 Vadaszezred, Kirchdorf - Micheldorf, April 24, 1945. Source: Collection John W. Oberstar, 11th Armored Division via thefirearmsforum.com.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/2809206...57625218079461
http://www.flickr.com/photos/2809206...7625218079461/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/2809206...7625218079461/

Hope this helps a bit...

Cheers
Marc


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