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-   -   Late war Bf 109 pictures source (http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/showthread.php?t=27108)

Rasmussen 17th September 2013 23:24

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Cpt_Farrel (Post 172572)
The placement of the W.Nr is correct for the 150-152xxx batch but not the 49xxxx range of Erla built G-10.s

Wrong - there were a/c's in the 491xxx-range with the same placement of the W.Nr.

Regards
Rasmussen

Marc-André Haldimann 19th September 2013 10:43

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
To illustrate Rasmussen's point, here is a shot of W.Nr. 491 404:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/2809206...57625208099917

Cheers
Marc

Cpt_Farrel 19th September 2013 22:22

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
Yeah, I found some one too, sorry for the confusion.

Marc-André Haldimann 20th September 2013 09:11

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
Folks,

We have an issue:

Thanks to Kees Mol, I was made aware of three exceptionally interesting shots, hosted by Rick Hawkinson on his Flickr account. They do depict a serie of destroyed Bf 109 G-10 and G-14's:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/2809206...n/photostream/
Bf 109 G-10 W.Nr. 151 86. "Gelbe ?", 7./JG 51, Fels am Wagram, May 1945. Source: Veteran collection via Rick Hawkinson, Flickr.com. This plane is very interesting: it is one of the best shot of a low-visibility camouflage on an Erla built Bf 109 G-10. I know of only seventeen pictures illustrating this yet to be identified color wise very peculiar camouflage. Fifteen do show Bf 109 G-10's, five of them with their actual W.Nr. (151 503, 151 86x, 151 965, 152 016, 152 033). The last two do represent probable Bf 109 G-14's. They now can be all accessed via this set: http://www.flickr.com/photos/2809206...7635677312595/
Another fascinating point is the tail band: the brightness of the two color bands surrounding the central white one, and the presence of a small II Gruppe horizontal bar which color is obviously yellow given its contrast with the white central band leaves us with two distinct possibilities, both never documented so far: JG 51 with it's foreseen Green-White-Green RV band or JG 52 with its foreseen Red-White-Red RV band. The skyline to be seen on the second picture below does clearly identify the location as Fels am Wagram (check here all referenced Fels am Wagram pictures: http://www.flickr.com/photos/2809206...7631641286641/). II./JG 51 was based there between March and 12 April 1945, II./JG 52 between 4 and 18 April 1945 (source: www.ww2.dk). Until a color shot of those machines do surface, it's again a matter of guessing which is the color of the darker RV Bands flanking the central white one. In my honest opinion, given the huge amount of photos illustrating II./JG 52 machines none wearing their foreseen Red-White-Red RV Band, there is a bigger chance those machines are II./JG 51; this would be then the first documented picture known to me showing late war machines from this unit, and the first documenting the actual implementation of the foreseen Green-White-Green RV Band.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/2809206...57631641286641
Bf 109 G-10 W.Nr. 61. ... "Schwarze 6", 6./JG 51, Fels am Wagram, May 1945. Source: Veteran collection via Rick Hawkinson, Flickr.com. This second picture gives us a clear view of the Fels am Wagram skyline and depicts a WNF built Bf 109 G-10 in quite a dramatic pose. Again, the RV Band is prominent, possibly pointing to II./JG 51. There are at least six other wrecked or abandoned Bf 109's to be seen in the background; among them is "Gelbe 9", another Erla low-visibility camouflaged 109 I've which close-up can be seen here (http://www.flickr.com/photos/2809206...7631641286641/).

The third shot is less evocative: http://www.flickr.com/photos/28092068@N03/9689875076/
Bf 109 G-14 W.Nr. 78. ..., II./JG 51, Fels am Wagram, late April 1945. Source: Rick Hawkinson, Flickr.com. Not much can be added except it was taken at the same location, Fels am Wagram.

There are times when a single photo ignites a lot of new interrogations: I feel this is the case here. I would appreciate your comments about those strikingly new RV Band colors combination, knowing also that so far only JG 2, JG 4, JG 6 and JG 300 are documented as having used three colored tail bands.

Cheers
Marc

Nick Beale 20th September 2013 10:22

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
"JG 51 with it's foreseen Green-White-Green RV band or JG 52 with its foreseen Red-White-Red RV band."

According to a captured document, JG 52 was allocated red/white and JG 6 was given red/white/red. But Erik Mombeeck's new Luftwaffe Gallery No. 4 (which I haven't seen yet) has an article on III./JG 6 tail bands, illustrated by a Bf 109 with white/red bands.

Marc-André Haldimann 20th September 2013 10:48

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
Many thanks, Nick for your APWIU Report no 48/1945: Good to see the original documents for furthering our research, and thus we are all much indebted to your Ghostbomber website.

I do not yet have LuGa 4 and am looking forward to read Kees's article. The plane illustrated on the cover is Bf 109 G-14/AS W.Nr. 784938 "Grüne 1", Stab./JG 6, at Twenthe, Holland. An excellent case figure showing that JG 6 did implement the RV band designed for JG 52 ..and never so far seen on any of their machines. This underscores my error in post 554...

Cheers
Marc

ouidjat 20th September 2013 11:24

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
Hi Marc,
Erla low visibility set:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/2809206...7635677312595/

Maybe you forgot to include that one in: http://www.me109.info/display.php?a=e&fid=4814 ?

Kees Mol JG 6 article in Lu/Ga 4: Thanks Nick for your APWIU Report no 48/1945 pointer.
Some one did read the said article (except me)?

Regards, Franck.

Cpt_Farrel 20th September 2013 12:03

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
Looking at the first picture (and what a great picture it is!) I would have guessed a JG300 aircraft transferred to II./JG52 as they used such a small II gruppe bar.

Then I look at Schwarze 6 and see that it's got the yellow bar as well and I'm not so sure anymore. I've never seen II./JG52 aircraft with markings in two colors. Besides the "6" is too large for II./JG52. So, a mystery indeed.

Even if it could be proven which unit these aircraft belonged to, I would still be very careful with assuming colors for the tailband as it was the end of the war and transfers from disbanded units would have been common.

Also, remember the ex-JG300 aircraft with the small black horizontal bar, is there perhaps something we don't understand yet regarding these markings/units?

Regarding the III./JG6 aircraft at Twenthe, Green 1 was from 12./JG6, not stab. .

Franck: The theory on III./JG6 from Kees Mol is that they used two bands White/Red rather than the prescribed Red/White/Red. There's a couple of photos and some Crashed Enemy Aircraft Reports that supports that


One last thing, Marc, the W.Nr for Black 6, where does it come from? The wing camoflage does not look like WNF to me.

/Anders

Marc-André Haldimann 20th September 2013 14:14

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by ouidjat (Post 172674)
Hi Marc,
Erla low visibility set:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/2809206...7635677312595/

Maybe you forgot to include that one in: http://www.me109.info/display.php?a=e&fid=4814 ?

Kees Mol JG 6 article in Lu/Ga 4: Thanks Nick for your APWIU Report no 48/1945 pointer.
Some one did read the said article (except me)?

Regards, Franck.

Franck, of course! I totally forgot about the K-4 Ferdinando found us.... thanks for reminding me!

Marc-André Haldimann 20th September 2013 15:20

Re: Late war Bf 109 pictures source
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Cpt_Farrel (Post 172675)
Looking at the first picture (and what a great picture it is!) I would have guessed a JG300 aircraft transferred to II./JG52 as they used such a small II gruppe bar.

Then I look at Schwarze 6 and see that it's got the yellow bar as well and I'm not so sure anymore. I've never seen II./JG52 aircraft with markings in two colors. Besides the "6" is too large for II./JG52. So, a mystery indeed.

Even if it could be proven which unit these aircraft belonged to, I would still be very careful with assuming colors for the tailband as it was the end of the war and transfers from disbanded units would have been common.

Also, remember the ex-JG300 aircraft with the small black horizontal bar, is there perhaps something we don't understand yet regarding these markings/units?

Regarding the III./JG6 aircraft at Twenthe, Green 1 was from 12./JG6, not stab. .

Franck: The theory on III./JG6 from Kees Mol is that they used two bands White/Red rather than the prescribed Red/White/Red. There's a couple of photos and some Crashed Enemy Aircraft Reports that supports that


One last thing, Marc, the W.Nr for Black 6, where does it come from? The wing camoflage does not look like WNF to me.

/Anders

Thanks for your insight, Anders, especially the information on Kees's latest article in LuGa.

As for "Schwarze 6", the low and straight separation line camouflage on the fuselage added to the wavy scalloped line of the right wing leading edge are classic benchmarks for the WNF Diana-Tisnov production as shown here:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/2809206...57625218079461.
Bf 109 G-10 W.Nr. 770 157 "Gelbe 66", NAGr. 3 (?), Köthen, April 1945. Source: internet.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/2809206...57625218079461
Bf 109 G-10 W.Nr. 770 293 "Gelbe 67", Rinkaby, 12 April 1945. Hitchcock 1977, p. 10.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/2809206...57625218079461
Bf 109 G-10 W.Nr. 770 313 "Schwarze 3", Gatow, 1945. Source: Bergstrom and Pegg 2005, p. 188.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/2809206...57625218079461
Bf 109 G-10 W.Nr. 61x xxx, II./JG 3, Garz, February 1945. Source: old ebay auction

Thanks and cheers
Marc


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